All Blacks in the ITM Cup

[Kiwiwomble]

I have just watched Otago beat North Harbor and it struck me how much of a difference having just TWO changes to a team can make. Have smith and Ellison back for us gave the young guys around them a lot more confidence.

Is it really fair that "smaller" unions like Manawatu (cruden and smith), Taranaki (barrett), Hawkes bay (dagg) and yes now days Otago (smith) develop these guys...only for them to play at most one of two games a season?

the question is, am i alone in that would rather there were less AB's games and these guys played for their unions. to put it in context, Richie has played only 34 times for canterbury in 13 years! when i was a kid we use to joke about players not playing for their club teams!

please forget the whole ab's draw the crowds and pay for it all etc., i know it will never happen so don't need it explained why it won't work, purely hypothetical, less ab's and a better itm cup?

edit: edit?..what edit?...i did it perfectly the first time no matter what Darwin says...cheers darwin

 

[Darwin]

I have just watched Otago beat North Harbor and it struck me how much of a difference having just TWO changes to a team can make. Have smith and Ellison back for us gave the young guys around them a lot more confidence.

Is it really fair that "smaller" unions like Manawatu (cruden and smith), Taranaki (barrett), Hawkes bay (dagg) and yes now days Otago (smith) develop these guys...only for them to play at most one of two games a season?

the question is, am i alone in that would rather there were less AB's games and these guys played for their unions. to put it in context, Richie has played only 34 times for canterbury in 13 years! when i was a kid we use to joke about players not playing for their club teams!

please forget the whole ab's draw the crowds and pay for it all etc., i know it will never happen so don't need it explained why it won't work, purely hypothetical, less ab's and a better itm cup?

edit: first poll....and i stuffed, NZ should be NO...obviously, can you edit a poll?

Not sure whether you can edit a poll, but I can using my incredible power

This is certainly an interesting question. Personally I would love to see more AB's playing ITM Cup, but I'm not sure how practical it would be. I voted yes though, as I love seeing Ben Smith carving up in Blue and Gold

 

[Shaggy]

I have just watched Otago beat North Harbor and it struck me how much of a difference having just TWO changes to a team can make. Have smith and Ellison back for us gave the young guys around them a lot more confidence.

Is it really fair that "smaller" unions like Manawatu (cruden and smith), Taranaki (barrett), Hawkes bay (dagg) and yes now days Otago (smith) develop these guys...only for them to play at most one of two games a season?

the question is, am i alone in that would rather there were less AB's games and these guys played for their unions. to put it in context, Richie has played only 34 times for canterbury in 13 years! when i was a kid we use to joke about players not playing for their club teams!

please forget the whole ab's draw the crowds and pay for it all etc., i know it will never happen so don't need it explained why it won't work, purely hypothetical, less ab's and a better itm cup?

edit: first poll....and i stuffed, NZ should be NO...obviously, can you edit a poll?

Ummn ... isn't this like a "should beer be free" type poll, in that it's something that a lot of people would like to see happen, but it can't

anyway, I would argue that it's probably a good thing that it can't, as it levels the playing field by the ABs not being there, and gives the younger guys a chance to prove themselves.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Ummn ... isn't this like a "should beer be free" type poll, in that it's something that a lot of people would like to see happen, but it can't

anyway, I would argue that it's probably a good thing that it can't, as it levels the playing field by the ABs not being there, and gives the younger guys a chance to prove themselves.

thats why it's hypothetical


not sure i agree, the larger unions generally will have more depth so might miss them less than the smaller ones. Histoically when most of the team were made up of cantabs and aucklanders i would agree but at the moment we have a real spread across loads of unions so it possibly just lowers the overall skill level

 

[Shaggy]

thats why it's hypothetical


not sure i agree, the larger unions generally will have more depth so might miss them less than the smaller ones. Histoically when most of the team were made up of cantabs and aucklanders i would agree but at the moment we have a real spread across loads of unions so it possibly just lowers the overall skill level

Well, I guess my argument is that no All Blacks equal more places for others ... anyway, I guess well just have to agree to disagree.

 

[smartcooky]

We have to finally come to terms with the fact that the ITM Cup is a development competition. Yes, its our National Provincial Championship, but ultimately, it has been superseded by Super Rugby as our Premier domestic rugby competition. ITM Cup has taken the place that Club Rugby once held in this country; and note, that I did not say it was "only" a development competition.
.
Overseas fans and players have often jokingly said that we seem to have a conveyor belt of new talent here, and we have... its called the ITM Cup. They are astounded at the frequency with which we seem to produce crops of talented young players in key positions.

Recent players that fit this description have been Aaron Cruden, Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford and Kieran Read. Among the current crop are names like Sam Kane, Aaron Smith, Beauden Barrett, Luke Romano, Julian Savea and Brodie Retallick. For the future, get your pen and paper out, and write these names down....Steven Luatua (Auckland), James Marshall; (Taranaki) and Luke Braid (Bay of Plenty). IMO you will be hearing more about them in the not too distant future.

The ITM Cup is vital to the future of NZ Rugby, with its main role being talent identification and development. IMO, as a general rule, it should not have any of the current All Black squad playing in it at all (with exceptions that I'll cover later). By having a core of Super Rugby Players and no All Blacks, we leave space open to develop talent to fill the gaps left by those All Blacks. This helps us to "pre-fill" positions ahead of the time when those All Blacks will be coming up for retirement and/or leaving our shores. I firmly believe that every time a top player goes to Europe to play out the last years of their rugby career, a door opens for a new young player to step up, and another door closes on their counterpart in Europe.

The ITM Cup as it stands now, runs concurrently with the International season. This allows the fringe players to keep match fit in case they are called up, and allows the All Blacks managers to give some non-playing members a run, or to bring players with minor injuries a game or two to bring them back up to match fitness. IMO, these should be the only reasons for having All Blacks in the ITM Cup.

 

[Tony Manx]

We have to finally come to terms with the fact that the ITM Cup is a development competition. Yes, its our National Provincial Championship, but ultimately, it has been superseded by Super Rugby as our Premier domestic rugby competition. ITM Cup has taken the place that Club Rugby once held in this country; and note, that I did not say it was "only" a development competition.
.
Overseas fans and players have often jokingly said that we seem to have a conveyor belt of new talent here, and we have... its called the ITM Cup. They are astounded at the frequency with which we seem to produce crops of talented young players in key positions.

Recent players that fit this description have been Aaron Cruden, Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford and Kieran Read. Among the current crop are names like Sam Kane, Aaron Smith, Beauden Barrett, Luke Romano, Julian Savea and Brodie Retallick. For the future, get your pen and paper out, and write these names down....Steven Luatua (Auckland), James Marshall; (Taranaki) and Luke Braid (Bay of Plenty). IMO you will be hearing more about them in the not too distant future.

The ITM Cup is vital to the future of NZ Rugby, with its main role being talent identification and development. IMO, as a general rule, it should not have any of the current All Black squad playing in it at all (with exceptions that I'll cover later). By having a core of Super Rugby Players and no All Blacks, we leave space open to develop talent to fill the gaps left by those All Blacks. This helps us to "pre-fill" positions ahead of the time when those All Blacks will be coming up for retirement and/or leaving our shores. I firmly believe that every time a top player goes to Europe to play out the last years of their rugby career, a door opens for a new young player to step up, and another door closes on their counterpart in Europe.

The ITM Cup as it stands now, runs concurrently with the International season. This allows the fringe players to keep match fit in case they are called up, and allows the All Blacks managers to give some non-playing members a run, or to bring players with minor injuries a game or two to bring them back up to match fitness. IMO, these should be the only reasons for having All Blacks in the ITM Cup.

Superb posting and, in my opinion, the conveyor belt and how it progresses from a very early stage at school level through ITM is one of the main, if not the, reason for the past, present strength, and future strength of the All Blacks................if I knew how the Notifications but on this board work, I would use it for this!!!

 

[nickdnz]

I'd like it, but we cant have Super Rugby and another domestic competition with the same degree of importance. For me, the All Blacks are the best, I care more about AB's than any other team, so I don't care too much if Wellington doesn't get Gear, Smith, Nonu, Vito, Jane and Savea so long as Wellington players are doing well internationally.

I'm not entirely against making the ITM Cup our premier competition and incorporating it with an international competition like the H-Cup is for the Aviva Premiership/Top 14 etc...

Like Smartcookie I agree the role of ITM Cup is now more for development than our premier competition.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The only question I have is how does one associate the AB players with a particular region if they don't play for that region and the S15 franchises don't exactly embody the regions like they do in SA?

In SA Stormers = WP, Sharks = Natal etc, hell, the Blue Bulls, Lions and Sharks have just about done away with the provincial names altogether.

 

[smartcooky]

The only question I have is how does one associate the AB players with a particular region if they don't play for that region and the S15 franchises don't exactly embody the regions like they do in SA?

In SA Stormers = WP, Sharks = Natal etc, hell, the Blue Bulls, Lions and Sharks have just about done away with the provincial names altogether.

Every player in New Zealand must be registered with a Rugby Club by the 1st of May in any year. The Province in which that Club is located becomes the Province for which they are eligible in that year.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Every player in New Zealand must be registered with a Rugby Club by the 1st of May in any year. The Province in which that Club is located becomes the Province for which they are eligible in that year.

I assumed as much but that is quite technical and I was wondering more along the experiential; how does the man on the street who does not know which players are registered at which clubs associate a player with their region if he never actually plays for it?

I suppose it comes into play if a player comes back from injury and has a bit of a run in the domestic tourney but apart from that the link seems very tenuous. I know the same debate has run in SA where many felt that not having the Springboks in the Currie cup devalues the tournament and it does to some extent but at least in SA there is a direct corrolation between S15 franchise and province (with some provinces simply not represented even though they form part of a franchise technically).

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

In South Africa, the smaller unions are merely on paper part of a franchise. The best example of that might be Griffons. The small union, playing in the 1st Div. is part of the Cheetahs franchise but was only really part of it due to the purple stripes on the franchise shirt. Since 2011, even that is gone and we only see the white-orange (FS Cheetahs) and green (Griquas) represented in the kit. I feel it's the responsibility of the bigger unions to help their franchise-partners develop.

WP, for instance, should send youngsters to Boland to help them develop and get game-time other than the U21 Currie Cup tournament. The same can be said for the Bulls (Valke), Cheetahs (Griffons, Griquas) and Kings (SWD, Border).

It won't happen, but that would be an amazing step forward in the development of youngsters. Why doesn't Handre Pollard or Jan Serfontein play for Valke to get serious gametime and match experience? Imagine what effect it will have on the guys who helped us win the JWC...

New Zealand has it organized a lot better. Their quality is spread out across the country, making the ITM Cup a 14-team competition in stead of a 6-team competition in South Africa.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

In South Africa, the smaller unions are merely on paper part of a franchise. The best example of that might be Griffons. The small union, playing in the 1st Div. is part of the Cheetahs franchise but was only really part of it due to the purple stripes on the franchise shirt. Since 2011, even that is gone and we only see the white-orange (FS Cheetahs) and green (Griquas) represented in the kit. I feel it's the responsibility of the bigger unions to help their franchise-partners develop.

WP, for instance, should send youngsters to Boland to help them develop and get game-time other than the U21 Currie Cup tournament. The same can be said for the Bulls (Valke), Cheetahs (Griffons, Griquas) and Kings (SWD, Border).

It won't happen, but that would be an amazing step forward in the development of youngsters. Why doesn't Handre Pollard or Jan Serfontein play for Valke to get serious gametime and match experience? Imagine what effect it will have on the guys who helped us win the JWC...

New Zealand has it organized a lot better. Their quality is spread out across the country, making the ITM Cup a 14-team competition in stead of a 6-team competition in South Africa.

True. Only the Griquas ever have players in S15 through the Cheetahs and you could bet your house that if the Cheetahs had the money of the other franchises that wouldn't even be the case and they'd simply buy all those players and keep the smaller unions down like what happens in the other franchises.

It would be great if the talent could be spread but the smaller unions are cash strapped and the players that would add value would rather play for Pounds and Euro's unfortunately.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

The last time the NPC had the top players was in 2006 (when Waikato won ), since then the competition has been nowhere near as interesting for me, frankly. I still enjoy, but to the same extent.

It's only been in the last two years where NZ Super Rugby teams don't really fit with the provinces as much as in the past. The Highlanders and Chiefs are the two key examples of this, where well over 50% of their squad now come from outside the regions those franchises represent. The Blues, Crusaders and Hurricanes however still use mainly local players (though it looks like that might be about to change for the Blues). Now we have the top 150 NZ players in the competition, instead of the top 30 Blues region players, the top 30 Chiefs region players etc. This strengthens NZ as a whole (and the regions), but obviously comes at the cost of the allegiance towards franchises.

This would not have been necessary in the past however, as when you used to pick regional top 30s you generally would get your top players, as most of the top players were focused in only a few different regions (notably Auckland, Waikato, Wellington and Canterbury). Inevitably promising young players would move to these centres in order to progress through the ranks. With the All Blacks no longer in the squads, the talent is more evenly spread, as no one team is seen as giving youngsters a better opportunity to progress (bar maybe Canterbury). As players stick to their roots, the NPC teams all become more competitive. This means that you have equally strong squads (to some extent) for each of the provinces. As the Hurricanes catchment area has four provinces included, it's only natural that some of their region's players go to other franchises (i.e. the Chiefs and the Highlanders).

So basically, the strength of NZ rugby (and I believe it's stronger than ever before) is in many ways a product of the absence of the All Blacks, coupled with the increase in number of teams in the NPC from 10 to 14. There is still some affinity between provinces and franchises (indeed I support the Chiefs and will continue to because they represent Waikato, even if there are only a few Waikato players in the Chiefs squad), but it is not as pronounced as it used to be. It's not unusual to see Hawke's Bay/Manawatu supporters cheering on the Highlanders or the Chiefs now, because they do in fact have more HB players in their squads than the Hurricanes.

 

[smartcooky]

I assumed as much but that is quite technical and I was wondering more along the experiential; how does the man on the street who does not know which players are registered at which clubs associate a player with their region if he never actually plays for it?

I suppose it comes into play if a player comes back from injury and has a bit of a run in the domestic tourney but apart from that the link seems very tenuous. I know the same debate has run in SA where many felt that not having the Springboks in the Currie cup devalues the tournament and it does to some extent but at least in SA there is a direct corrolation between S15 franchise and province (with some provinces simply not represented even though they form part of a franchise technically).

An All Black would actually have started his adult playing career with a Club, then gone on to play for the Province in which that club was located, then a Super Rugby franchise (except on rare occasions) before they became an All Black. Take for example, Dan Carter. He started his club rugby with Southbridge in the Ellesmere sub-union of Canterbury. From there, he was selected for Canterbury, then The Crusaders and finally an All Black. He has never transferred away from Canterbury, and even though he probably hasn't played for them in a long time, he is still associated with that Province.

Players can be drafted to play for a Super Rugby franchise but those franchise are no allowed to actively recruit players for a Province within their own franchise. Draft player must go back and play for their Province e.g. Zac Guildford plays ITM Cup for Hawkes Bay (which is part of the Hurricanes franchise) but plays Super Rugby for the Crusaders.

Richie McCaw is one of the rare exceptions who became an All Black before he played Super Rugby. He was selected straight from the Canterbury team.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Interesting reads thanks, guys!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

That's the same in South Africa. Players are contracted to clubteams. College Rovers, Rustenburg Impala, Old Selbornians, Sishen etc. The thing is, same as in NZ, only the young players and older not-good-enough lads represent these in the club championship. Sometimes we see lads break through and make their provincial debut like Rosko Specman for the Sharks last weekend (he plays for College Rovers).

All the Sharks players are signed to College Rovers despite never playing for them. It's only done so the players are eligible to represent the provincial side, Natal Sharks (and the Sharks Super Rugby franchise if they're good enough).

People just don't know about these contracts and ties to the club teams since it's not something that is broadcast on TV a lot and 95% of the people think provincial rugby is the cornerstone of the rugby-community when in fact it's the second level.

Club -> Province -> franchise -> Test level

 

[Shaggy]

An All Black would actually have started his adult playing career with a Club, then gone on to play for the Province in which that club was located, then a Super Rugby franchise (except on rare occasions) before they became an All Black. Take for example, Dan Carter. He started his club rugby with Southbridge in the Ellesmere sub-union of Canterbury. From there, he was selected for Canterbury, then The Crusaders and finally an All Black. He has never transferred away from Canterbury, and even though he probably hasn't played for them in a long time, he is still associated with that Province.

Players can be drafted to play for a Super Rugby franchise but those franchise are no allowed to actively recruit players for a Province within their own franchise. Draft player must go back and play for their Province e.g. Zac Guildford plays ITM Cup for Hawkes Bay (which is part of the Hurricanes franchise) but plays Super Rugby for the Crusaders.

Richie McCaw is one of the rare exceptions who became an All Black before he played Super Rugby. He was selected straight from the Canterbury team.

I thought the Super Rugby draft system no longer existed in New Zealand ... maybe it's just the definition of "draft" that has changed, but it use to be that the local Super franchise, got the first use option on the local players, and those that didn't make their squad, went on to the draft list, to be picked up by another franchise ... so you might get an Auckland ITM cup player, not needed by the Blues franchise, picked up by the highlanders of the draft list, one season. That player has a great season for the Highlanders, so the next season, the Blues include him in their squad (probably to sit on the bench for most of the season), thus denying the struggling franchise (the Highlanders), continuity of their playing squad from one season to the next, and limiting the players opportunity to advance their career by lack of game time.

... however, this changed a few years back (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong), where any player can be approached/contract to any new Zealand Super franchise, regardless of whether their club/province is part of that franchise or not ... I believe there is still a list of non contracted players that can be used, should any franchise need them, if injuries leave them short of player cover in any particular position.

For example: This year, Phil Burleigh was an non-contracted player who was part of the Chiefs wider training squad, who answered the call as the highlanders had a lack of centres due to injuries ... he played many games for the highlanders, and has now returned to play for Bay of Plenty (in the chiefs catchment area) in the ITM cup

 

[smartcooky]

I thought the Super Rugby draft system no longer existed in New Zealand ... maybe it's just the definition of "draft" that has changed, but it use to be that the local Super franchise, got the first use option on the local players, and those that didn't make their squad, went on to the draft list, to be picked up by another franchise ... so you might get an Auckland ITM cup player, not needed by the Blues franchise, picked up by the highlanders of the draft list, one season. That player has a great season for the Highlanders, so the next season, the Blues include him in their squad (probably to sit on the bench for most of the season), thus denying the struggling franchise (the Highlanders), continuity of their playing squad from one season to the next, and limiting the players opportunity to advance their career by lack of game time.

... however, this changed a few years back (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong), where any player can be approached/contract to any new Zealand Super franchise, regardless of whether their club/province is part of that franchise or not ... I believe there is still a list of non contracted players that can be used, should any franchise need them, if injuries leave them short of player cover in any particular position.

For example: This year, Phil Burleigh was an non-contracted player who was part of the Chiefs wider training squad, who answered the call as the highlanders had a lack of centres due to injuries ... he played many games for the highlanders, and has now returned to play for Bay of Plenty (in the chiefs catchment area) in the ITM cup

Shaggy.

Remember the saying about "a rose by any other name....." ? Well it applies here.

The five Super Rugby franchises are linked with several Provincial Unions from the semi-professional ITM Cup and the wholly amateur Heartland Championship. In a practical sense Super Rugby players are drawn from the ITM Cup sides within their franchise borders. However, although there is no draft as such, players can negotiate with another franchise to play for them instead of the franchise their Provincial Union is in. This is where you get players like Zac Guildford (Hawkes Bay/Crusaders) and Jarrad Hoeata (Taranaki/Highlanders). The Boards of Super Rugby franchises and Provincial Unions are now separate entities. Franchises wishing to contract a player from outside their catchment are not allowed to use inducements to lure players to switch ITM Cup teams. The NZRU looks very suspiciously on players who suddenly switch both Franchise and ITM Cup teams.

For those who haven't seen this, here are maps showing which Provincial Union are in which Franchise Areas.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I do understand this is all an attempt to make the AB's stronger...and its working...i guess i'm just more a fan of good rugby, across all levels, than doing whatever it takes to make the ab's better.

In my opinion it's one of the reasons football has become the biggest sport in the world, your local club can progress from the bottom to the top, and you have the best players playing at the grown down the road. International football is this rare and still special thing that is played far less often

It worries me that the walls between each level of rugby in Nz are becoming bigger and bigger, guys being rested from super rugby so they can play international anyone? when playing for Dunedin in Dunedin we use to joke about rarely seeing Taine Randell around the club rooms let alone in a jersey...but we knew he was just up the road at the brook with the otago team so it was ok...seems much worse than that now days

Every player in New Zealand must be registered with a Rugby Club by the 1st of May in any year. The Province in which that Club is located becomes the Province for which they are eligible in that year.

you have to admit that means bugger all for alot of the top players nowdays

edit: and the rugby is just so much better, two guys coming back into the squad wont have stopped to many guys getting blooded...but just gave the rest of the team that lift

edit 2: if i started the poll is there a way i can fudge the results so i win?