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All Blacks Tri-nations squad 2011

I'm totally disappointed not to see Cory Jane and Matt Todd.

Toeava is not good enough to play with the All Blacks, he makes too many mistakes while Jane never disappointed with the ABs.
Moreover the team need to have a real back-up of Richie McCaw: Henry should have taken Matt Todd. He was one of the best flanker during the Super 15 and he clearly has the potential.

My choice would be:
Dagg, Toeava, Kahui, Hore out
Jane, Ranger, Maitland, Todd in

Welcome to the forum.

I disagree about Toeava, though, I'd rather have him than Maitland. I agree with the other two changes (Ranger for Kahui and Jane for Dagg) but why are you changing a Hooker with a backrower? And why Hore?
 
Victor Vito and Cory Jane not in the original squad is a gimmick. Graham Henry really having a laugh by selecting that joker Guildford; really not a fan. Sean Maitland I think is the epitome of a strike winger, he can finish, has speed and can kick it like 50 metres.
 
i would go with a back line of..
9.weepu
10.carter
11.jane
12.sonny-bill williams
13.smith
14.gear
15.dagg but i think graham henry won't pick smith and sbw together.
 
Welcome to the forum.

I disagree about Toeava, though, I'd rather have him than Maitland. I agree with the other two changes (Ranger for Kahui and Jane for Dagg) but why are you changing a Hooker with a backrower? And why Hore?

Merci ;)

Cory Jane helped very well the ABs when the team was in trouble thanks to its skills...he has the x-factor. Jane for Dagg, why not. Dagg didn't impressed this year with the Crusaders (Tom Marshall was better), but Toeava isn't steady with the All Blacks: he drops the ball forward, misses tackles... Maitland races fast, has a long kicking game, the "envy" to try and he can play at 15 (ITM Cup).

3 hookers is not useful I think. And with 2 hookers, the staff can take another flanker: Matt Todd.
This is a really mistake not to take Todd, a promising player who can cover Richie McCaw.

Maitland, Jane, Todd, Ranger and Fruean can be upset.
 
It's not a bad squad, but there are some omissions who can feel a bit unfortunate I think.

As many have noted, considering the fact that Israel Dagg clearly got picked on past form, it's pretty strange to see Cory Jane omitted (or at least on standby). It's even more surprising because Dagg is still a little way off returning is he not?

Nice to see Hoeata picked, but would've liked Todd in there too.
 
It is slightly puzzling to have Toeava (a full utility back) as well as Kahui as centre cover. I realize Toeava and Muliaina will be battling it out for starting 15 so it may not make sense to have him covering centre as well but between SBW, Nonu and Smith I'm pretty certain 12 and 13 are in safe hands. I actually would have liked to see Macalistair, an old hand who can cover 10, to as another option. Having said that they're all brilliant players who deserve their places on the side (although Muliaina hasn't shown much of his usually great self this year).

The winger decision was always going to be quite controversial given the fact that there were 8 or so brilliant candidates for the position. I'm a bit disappointed Maitland wasn't chosen as between himself and Guildford I think he's played better this season (but lost out due to a late season injury). As they'd already chosen Kahui as a centre/wing cover they absolutely needed a specialist winger and therefore it's not totally shocking Guildford's on the team. Someone who has practised and can consistently link with Sonny Bill will be a great asset to the squad.

It does seem a bit excessive, but Toeava generally plays his best rugby at fullback/wing, so I don't think the selectors want him to play in the midfield. From a NZ perspective I'm more than happy to have as many midfield options in the squad as possible - the last three world cup matches we have ended up playing a fullback at centre in the crucial matches, so having extra cover for centre is fine by me!

Maitland has had a good season, but I don't think he has been as impressive as Guildford (incidentally Crusaders coach Todd Blackadder recently suggested Guildford has been the Crusaders best back this season). What may count against Maitland is that the RWC will be played in NZ in spring, which is typically wet, and not that warm. Maitland always performs his best on a dry hard ground; when the Crusaders have played in NZ on a damp field he has been completely anonymous. In contrast Guildford's phenomenal work-rate has meant he has excelled in these game; several times he has been the difference between the Crusaders winning and losing these games (one of the Chiefs matches and the recent Hurricanes match comes to mind).

I'm totally disappointed not to see Cory Jane and Matt Todd.

Toeava is not good enough to play with the All Blacks, he makes too many mistakes while Jane never disappointed with the ABs.
Moreover the team need to have a real back-up of Richie McCaw: Henry should have taken Matt Todd. He was one of the best flanker during the Super 15 and he clearly has the potential.

My choice would be:
Dagg, Toeava, Kahui, Hore out
Jane, Ranger, Maitland, Todd in

I too am disappointed not to see a specialist back-up 7 selected. Can't agree at all on Toeava though. After an average start to his career he has been outstanding for the AB's over the last couple of years (the recent Hong Kong test aside). He was also in phenomenal form over the Super Rugby season before injury; he made very few of the basic errors that plagued his early career, was devastating with the ball in hand, exceptional under the high ball, and very strong in defence. In contrast Jane has been horribly out of form this season - he himself has gone as far as to describe his personal Super Rugby form as "shocking"! I really hope that Jane takes his chances (if he gets a go in early tests), as Cory Jane in 2009 form is as good as any wing in world rugby. Like some others I wouldn't have picked Dagg, but instead would have gone for Ben Smith; Dagg may provide a slightly better attacking threat but Smith himself is very dangerous, and makes a fraction of the errors that Dagg makes (and he comes from the Highlanders, which likely explains my bias towards him :D ).

I'm not surprised Crockett didn't make the initial 30-man squad, as despite having a strong Super Rugby season he is unproven at test level. I know next to nothing about scrummaging myself, but I've been reliably informed that scrummaging at test match level is very different than at Super Rugby level. Northern Hemisphere referees have different interpretations in the scrum - how Crockett will go under their interpretations is yet to be seen. I'm not saying Crockett will struggle (as I honestly have no idea), but I'm not surprised that the selectors have gone for the tried and true (Woodcock) rather than the unknown (Crockett). In any case Crockett may get a go in the early tri-nations tests; if he can prove his dominance there he may force his way into the final 30-man RWC squad.
 
I really hope Jane has a blinder verse Fiji. The only problem I've seen with Crockett's scrummaging, is he tends to stand up when competing the oppositions scrum (a good example is what The Beast did to Vickery in 2009). So he gets his head below the chest of the other prop, and then lifts them so it becomes a mess. This means the opposition prop has to try and keep Crockett lower, which often will cause a collaps. It's not against the laws providing the hit and drive is streight, but I can see it being penalised during the World Cup.
 
It's a good squad. Some suprises and there was always going to be some disapointed players who missed out with it being only a 30man squad - not 40 like Aussie.

Props: Shame Crockett didn't make the main squad but he is sure to get some gametime with Woodcock not due back for some time. If Woodcock doesn't come back strong then I hope Crockett gets a real shot.

Locks: Ali Williams was a sure thing and I think he should be in the starting 15 with Brad Thorn. Good on Hoeata but I expect Boric will reclaim that spot when he's back from injury. Boric has grown in to a top shelf lock over the last 2 years - I expect him to be part of the WC squad.

Hooker: Not happy with Flynn's selection. He's an ok player surrounded by all blacks at the crusaders. I thought Elliot made an awesome impression on the EoY tour last year. His lineout throwing is great, better I think than any of the current All Blacks hookers - Mealamu and Hore included.

Loosies: No suprises here though I really dont see the point in selecting thompson. Even though he's fast even most of his biggest supporters will agree that he's not good at 7 and from what I've seen this year he's not good at 8 either. So I dont understand the reason for having a 2nd specilist 6 when McCaw, Kaino, Read and Messam are all just as good or better at 6 tham Thompson. I also really question Thompsons Physicality as well. The gain line is critical in Rigby right now and that's about forwards being able to push through tackles to get the ball going forward and also hit the oposition on defense to hold them behind the gain line. Physicality and dicipline are thompson's weak areas and they are so critical to test rugby. Messam is very gifted and he's really starting to show his potnetial, he's also just as good at any position 6, 8 or 7. I think his best position is 8 and his best game this season was the one game he played at 7. Stats show messam has been strong in every aspect of loose forward play, not just a couple of areas like other players.

I was a big supporter of the use of thompson as McCaw's backup in 2008 but it just hasn't worked. Not even at super level. I see two better options. 1 - get a spec 7 into the squad, Luke Braid and Matt Todd have been very good. Right now I'm leaning a little toward Braid. 2 - Tell Liam Messam his main Job is going to be to backup McCaw at 7 - and bring Vito into the squad to backup #8 having watched Messam for years he adapts his body to whatever position he's been asked to play. Because he had to play 8 alot this year he's carrying a bit of extra bulk. if asked to cover 7 I bet he would trim down and speed up in 3-4 weeks and be ready for world cup. Where right now his main job in the squad should be to cover #8 for Read - as he's the most experienced 8 in the squad.

Halfback: I've said this for months and I still believe it 100% that getting Piri weepu fit is critical to NZ's world cup chances. When fit he's the best 9 in the world - right now he's far from ideal fittness. I also know from a bit of inside knowledge that uncle Ted feels the same way.

I'm also worried about Andy Elis. The super15 final once again showed how elis's slow clearance can affect a backline. Elis picks the ball up. Pauses, takes a step then passes. That delay means that by the time the 2nd 5 has it there is no room for anyone further out because the defense is right up with them. It's most obvious when Elis was replaced by Kahn who passes the ball straight out of the breakdown and all of a sudden the backs have time and room to move. Which enabled Sonny Bill to make some linebreaks late in the game. I've seen the exact same thing happen for the AB's. in 2008 Elis was the #1 halfback and the backline struggled outside him in the early tests. Then Elis got injured and Cowan & Weepu got their chance and the rest is history - the backline flourished big time. Weepu is very good at clearing the ball. Cowan is ok, better than Elis but not express. Leonard and Mathewson ar both much better than Elis in this area.

10: I agree I like slade for dan's backup. A fully fit and match ready slade is better than Cruden. But Slade still has a way to go to get test match ready. So it's a bit of a risk. He has mostly been selected off the back of his ITM cup winning form late last year which was very impressive. Slade is also very experienced for his age. Much More experienced than Cruden who is only a bit younger.

Midfield: No suprises here. Kahui is a proven test player and 100% chance of selection when fit in my books. I also think he will shine once again when he gets his chance. He's also brilliant on the wing. I think better than some of the top spec wingers around. He has the ability to put his game into overdrive for big matches which will be a great asset.

Outside backs: This is where the big suprise is. This is an all black squad without Rokocoko, Sivivatu or Cory Jane. These guys have been used more than any other wingers over the last 4 years. it does thugh reflect that during this super15 the experienced test wingers havn't been in as good form as the young guys coming through. Infact Cory Jane lost his starting position to Toeava late last year. He needed a big super campaign to secure his spot and it didn't happen. Which I think is a shame, I remember back at the start of the super season Jane saying he was in the best shape he has been at that time in the season and he looked it. But honestly it didn't translate to the field.

In Contrast Guildford has had a stellar season, his workrate is through the roof and considering just how much he does his error rate is pretty low. he will be better off after a couple weeks rest for the AB's. he's had a huge workload for the crusaders since coming back from injury.

I hope Toeava comes right and has a good season. He was devastating for the blues and the blues were a pretty average team without him. His ability to run on a curve at speed into gaps is mind blowing. Shame he didn't make it back for the finals. I think the blues would have beaten the reds with him there.

Same story for Dagg, he was a little error prone at the begining of the season but get better as time went on. Scored a lot of tries and once again displayed his ability to make something from nothing. Much like that try against SA last year that no one can forget. Doubt he will be ready straight away which will give Kahui or maybe Jane a chance to impress before the WC.

Mills - automatic selection. had an ok season. Bit up and down. But he has a habit of coming good at the business end of the season and I bet in the last few weeks he will have been working hard to make sure that is the case.

Some Unlucky Players: Joe Rokocoko - the tryline has eluded him but he has still proved to be very hard to defend and on defense he is arguably the best winger in the world. AB's will miss that and his size, reliability and power with the crash ball.

Sivivatu - AB's may have missed a trick, he has shown again this year that he has the ability to unlock a modern defense like no one else. Also very good under the high ball. But his top speed is down and he has a habit of bouncing off tackles in defence.

Fruen - Good season, can't find room for him though.

Payne - see above. though a shocker semi final vs. the reds and the fact he's going overseas wount have helped.

Leonard - best season in years, best and most consistant back for the chiefs this season. Great kicking game and big workload on defnense and attack. Better than any NZ 9 he came up against in head to head matchups. Superb kicking game. And all behind the weakest tight 5 of the NZ teams.

Vito - He's had a good season. Proved to be a great lineout option but at times when the Canes were under pressure he bent - seemed to struggle which isn't a good sign in my books. For the AB's you need guys who shine when the pressure goes on.

Cruden - Had a good end to the season with some brilliant play. Though still prone to mistakes as well. Even though he works hard on defense his lack of size means he will always be a Big target.

Donald - Real shame for him, hasn't had a bad season though he did go through a quiet patch after his back injury where he also missed some goal kicks he should have got though he still finished the season well over 70%. The fact he wasn't clearly behind slade or Cruden this year suggests that his non selection has a lot to do with that one missed kick at goal in hong kong which would have secured the game. It was a tough situation - carter had missed his first two kicks at goal that day. But he should have got it - he was in better form than even carter at the time and kicking over 90% in ITM cup.

Elliot - Honestly dont know what else he could have done. Best lineout thrower around. Tough as hell in contact and fast around the field.

MacIntosh - Uber start to the season but dropped off as the highlanders season took the same route. Wasn't able to rest and rotate like his counterparts at the Crusaders. He and other top props in NZ suffer because there is only room for one spec for each side. If if guys like jamie want to improve their chances they need to show they can prop both sides of the scrum like Ben Franks, Tialata or Afoa. In future guys like Toby Smith and Charlie Faumuina are going to have an edge bcause of that.

Tom Donnelly - been a tough season for him. Served the AB's well in the past and I dont think he would have let them down this year either.

Chris Jack - Bit ****** off with blackadder for keeping Jack out of the business end of the season. He was brilliant at times and had the better of some of the best locks in the world when he had his chance. Such an experienced player he would not let the AB's down if given the chance. He should have moved to the chiefs, they dont really have a top class lock and he would have got the gametime he needed to prove himself.

Ben Smith - unlucky not to make the main squad. has had a golden season. His kicking game in particular has been brilliant. AB's could have really used that to their advantage.
 
It's a good squad. Some suprises and there was always going to be some disapointed players who missed out with it being only a 30man squad - not 40 like Aussie.

Props: Shame Crockett didn't make the main squad but he is sure to get some gametime with Woodcock not due back for some time. If Woodcock doesn't come back strong then I hope Crockett gets a real shot.

Locks: Ali Williams was a sure thing and I think he should be in the starting 15 with Brad Thorn. Good on Hoeata but I expect Boric will reclaim that spot when he's back from injury. Boric has grown in to a top shelf lock over the last 2 years - I expect him to be part of the WC squad.

Hooker: Not happy with Flynn's selection. He's an ok player surrounded by all blacks at the crusaders. I thought Elliot made an awesome impression on the EoY tour last year. His lineout throwing is great, better I think than any of the current All Blacks hookers - Mealamu and Hore included.

Loosies: No suprises here though I really dont see the point in selecting thompson. Even though he's fast even most of his biggest supporters will agree that he's not good at 7 and from what I've seen this year he's not good at 8 either. So I dont understand the reason for having a 2nd specilist 6 when McCaw, Kaino, Read and Messam are all just as good or better at 6 tham Thompson. I also really question Thompsons Physicality as well. The gain line is critical in Rigby right now and that's about forwards being able to push through tackles to get the ball going forward and also hit the oposition on defense to hold them behind the gain line. Physicality and dicipline are thompson's weak areas and they are so critical to test rugby. Messam is very gifted and he's really starting to show his potnetial, he's also just as good at any position 6, 8 or 7. I think his best position is 8 and his best game this season was the one game he played at 7. Stats show messam has been strong in every aspect of loose forward play, not just a couple of areas like other players.

I was a big supporter of the use of thompson as McCaw's backup in 2008 but it just hasn't worked. Not even at super level. I see two better options. 1 - get a spec 7 into the squad, Luke Braid and Matt Todd have been very good. Right now I'm leaning a little toward Braid. 2 - Tell Liam Messam his main Job is going to be to backup McCaw at 7 - and bring Vito into the squad to backup #8 having watched Messam for years he adapts his body to whatever position he's been asked to play. Because he had to play 8 alot this year he's carrying a bit of extra bulk. if asked to cover 7 I bet he would trim down and speed up in 3-4 weeks and be ready for world cup. Where right now his main job in the squad should be to cover #8 for Read - as he's the most experienced 8 in the squad.

Halfback: I've said this for months and I still believe it 100% that getting Piri weepu fit is critical to NZ's world cup chances. When fit he's the best 9 in the world - right now he's far from ideal fittness. I also know from a bit of inside knowledge that uncle Ted feels the same way.

I'm also worried about Andy Elis. The super15 final once again showed how elis's slow clearance can affect a backline. Elis picks the ball up. Pauses, takes a step then passes. That delay means that by the time the 2nd 5 has it there is no room for anyone further out because the defense is right up with them. It's most obvious when Elis was replaced by Kahn who passes the ball straight out of the breakdown and all of a sudden the backs have time and room to move. Which enabled Sonny Bill to make some linebreaks late in the game. I've seen the exact same thing happen for the AB's. in 2008 Elis was the #1 halfback and the backline struggled outside him in the early tests. Then Elis got injured and Cowan & Weepu got their chance and the rest is history - the backline flourished big time. Weepu is very good at clearing the ball. Cowan is ok, better than Elis but not express. Leonard and Mathewson ar both much better than Elis in this area.

10: I agree I like slade for dan's backup. A fully fit and match ready slade is better than Cruden. But Slade still has a way to go to get test match ready. So it's a bit of a risk. He has mostly been selected off the back of his ITM cup winning form late last year which was very impressive. Slade is also very experienced for his age. Much More experienced than Cruden who is only a bit younger.

Midfield: No suprises here. Kahui is a proven test player and 100% chance of selection when fit in my books. I also think he will shine once again when he gets his chance. He's also brilliant on the wing. I think better than some of the top spec wingers around. He has the ability to put his game into overdrive for big matches which will be a great asset.

Outside backs: This is where the big suprise is. This is an all black squad without Rokocoko, Sivivatu or Cory Jane. These guys have been used more than any other wingers over the last 4 years. it does thugh reflect that during this super15 the experienced test wingers havn't been in as good form as the young guys coming through. Infact Cory Jane lost his starting position to Toeava late last year. He needed a big super campaign to secure his spot and it didn't happen. Which I think is a shame, I remember back at the start of the super season Jane saying he was in the best shape he has been at that time in the season and he looked it. But honestly it didn't translate to the field.

In Contrast Guildford has had a stellar season, his workrate is through the roof and considering just how much he does his error rate is pretty low. he will be better off after a couple weeks rest for the AB's. he's had a huge workload for the crusaders since coming back from injury.

I hope Toeava comes right and has a good season. He was devastating for the blues and the blues were a pretty average team without him. His ability to run on a curve at speed into gaps is mind blowing. Shame he didn't make it back for the finals. I think the blues would have beaten the reds with him there.

Same story for Dagg, he was a little error prone at the begining of the season but get better as time went on. Scored a lot of tries and once again displayed his ability to make something from nothing. Much like that try against SA last year that no one can forget. Doubt he will be ready straight away which will give Kahui or maybe Jane a chance to impress before the WC.

Mills - automatic selection. had an ok season. Bit up and down. But he has a habit of coming good at the business end of the season and I bet in the last few weeks he will have been working hard to make sure that is the case.

Some Unlucky Players: Joe Rokocoko - the tryline has eluded him but he has still proved to be very hard to defend and on defense he is arguably the best winger in the world. AB's will miss that and his size, reliability and power with the crash ball.

Sivivatu - AB's may have missed a trick, he has shown again this year that he has the ability to unlock a modern defense like no one else. Also very good under the high ball. But his top speed is down and he has a habit of bouncing off tackles in defence.

Fruen - Good season, can't find room for him though.

Payne - see above. though a shocker semi final vs. the reds and the fact he's going overseas wount have helped.

Leonard - best season in years, best and most consistant back for the chiefs this season. Great kicking game and big workload on defnense and attack. Better than any NZ 9 he came up against in head to head matchups. Superb kicking game. And all behind the weakest tight 5 of the NZ teams.

Vito - He's had a good season. Proved to be a great lineout option but at times when the Canes were under pressure he bent - seemed to struggle which isn't a good sign in my books. For the AB's you need guys who shine when the pressure goes on.

Cruden - Had a good end to the season with some brilliant play. Though still prone to mistakes as well. Even though he works hard on defense his lack of size means he will always be a Big target.

Donald - Real shame for him, hasn't had a bad season though he did go through a quiet patch after his back injury where he also missed some goal kicks he should have got though he still finished the season well over 70%. The fact he wasn't clearly behind slade or Cruden this year suggests that his non selection has a lot to do with that one missed kick at goal in hong kong which would have secured the game. It was a tough situation - carter had missed his first two kicks at goal that day. But he should have got it - he was in better form than even carter at the time and kicking over 90% in ITM cup.

Elliot - Honestly dont know what else he could have done. Best lineout thrower around. Tough as hell in contact and fast around the field.

MacIntosh - Uber start to the season but dropped off as the highlanders season took the same route. Wasn't able to rest and rotate like his counterparts at the Crusaders. He and other top props in NZ suffer because there is only room for one spec for each side. If if guys like jamie want to improve their chances they need to show they can prop both sides of the scrum like Ben Franks, Tialata or Afoa. In future guys like Toby Smith and Charlie Faumuina are going to have an edge bcause of that.

Tom Donnelly - been a tough season for him. Served the AB's well in the past and I dont think he would have let them down this year either.

Chris Jack - Bit ****** off with blackadder for keeping Jack out of the business end of the season. He was brilliant at times and had the better of some of the best locks in the world when he had his chance. Such an experienced player he would not let the AB's down if given the chance. He should have moved to the chiefs, they dont really have a top class lock and he would have got the gametime he needed to prove himself.

Ben Smith - unlucky not to make the main squad. has had a golden season. His kicking game in particular has been brilliant. AB's could have really used that to their advantage.

Agree with pretty much all of this. The only part I disagree with is Victor Vito. During the worst games for the Canes, especially mid season, he was the only forward in the Canes squad that impressed. He hit the line and made good runs when the rest of the squad was moving back. He was a lone ranger at times. The problem is (and why I can see he missed out to Messam), is that Messam performed well with a loose trio that was productive at the breakdown and therefore he could show the class he has. The number of times I'd see Vito get the ball, break a tackle, drag another player 5 metres, and then loose the ball because the rest of the pack were slow to the breakdown was killing me.
 
I'm also worried about Andy Elis. The super15 final once again showed how elis's slow clearance can affect a backline. Elis picks the ball up. Pauses, takes a step then passes. That delay means that by the time the 2nd 5 has it there is no room for anyone further out because the defense is right up with them. It's most obvious when Elis was replaced by Kahn who passes the ball straight out of the breakdown and all of a sudden the backs have time and room to move. Which enabled Sonny Bill to make some linebreaks late in the game. I've seen the exact same thing happen for the AB's. in 2008 Elis was the #1 halfback and the backline struggled outside him in the early tests. Then Elis got injured and Cowan & Weepu got their chance and the rest is history - the backline flourished big time. Weepu is very good at clearing the ball. Cowan is ok, better than Elis but not express. Leonard and Mathewson ar both much better than Elis in this area.

Makes you wonder why they even pick Andy Ellis, hes good for the 'Saders but international...we'll have to see. His slow passing will be a factor against teams like the 'Boks who play a very borderline blitz defence.

I remember back at the start of the super season Jane saying he was in the best shape he has been at that time in the season and he looked it. But honestly it didn't translate to the field.

CJ is a very good player BUT, sometimes I think that guy talks too much. Hes always on the news or complaining on the internet about rugby however this year, I have not seen one big play from CJ in Super Rugby, not one. He should've helped out the struggling 'Canes when he played this year but...yeah. All Black???...thats up to him.
 
Really good analysis there Larksea - agree with nearly everything.

After hearing a few reports from the training camp I'm not surprised that Sivivatu missed out on the main squad - if these reports are too be believed Sivivatu is horribly unfit, and didn't impress in the speed tests. This really showed during the Super Rugby season - even in his good games he seemed to fade in out out of the games, and was frequently seen with his hands on his knees after a big run. He has shown he still has class, but he really needs to get fit if he wants to force his way into the main squad.

Elliots v Flynn is an interesting one - based on this seasons form they were probably even leading into the final, but Flynn's did have a poor performance in the final. Elliot apparently has had a number of off-field issues (though apparently has improved in this area). If it came down to a 50/50 choice between the two (as it possibly did before the final) how the players fit into the squad will have been important as to who was selected (especially as the third hooker won't be in the 22 in important matches, barring injury).
 
Agree with pretty much all of this. The only part I disagree with is Victor Vito. During the worst games for the Canes, especially mid season, he was the only forward in the Canes squad that impressed. He hit the line and made good runs when the rest of the squad was moving back. He was a lone ranger at times. The problem is (and why I can see he missed out to Messam), is that Messam performed well with a loose trio that was productive at the breakdown and therefore he could show the class he has. The number of times I'd see Vito get the ball, break a tackle, drag another player 5 metres, and then loose the ball because the rest of the pack were slow to the breakdown was killing me.

I'll respect that observation. I know of all the NZ teams I miss more Canes games. My observation was mostly from a couple of games I saw about 1/4 to 1/2 way through the season. One in particular was against an Aussie team where the canes started with a hiss and a roar and Vito was very impressive but the mommentum of the game changed. Vito pretty much vanished and watching him his technique on defense at mauls and breakdowns went out the window. Canes lost in the end. I think the very next canes game was similar. Though it's true those areas require a team effort.

Was interesting that recently they erected a statue focusing on Vito at the Cake tin? I think it shows how important he is to the region. And it may just be a matter of time till he establishes himself at higher levels. He is a better player now than when he first got a chance at test level and didn't go so well. But the same can be said for Liam Messam, he was the chiefs player of the year in 2010 and he has been even better this year. His statistics are mind blowing, Lead the whole comp in pick n' go by a large margin, best NZ loosie as far as linebreaks go, scored 4 trys and was only denied a couple more by questionable TMO decisions. And even with his great attacking stats he is still near top of the defensive stats as well. And His error rate & penalty count is low in comparison.

Vito has been prolific in the lineout. Messam's stats dont measure up to that but in game when the chiefs have had pressure "must win" lineouts they often go to Messam and I dont remember him missing any of them. I really question the Canes heavy use of Vito at the lineout. I don't believe it's good to tie loose forwards up by giving them too much lineout ball because they are so critical in the breakdown's that follow the lineout. Or as supporters to the ball carrier. McCaw for example is good in the lineout but when you use him he will miss the next breakdown. Which is why he doesn't get used much.
 
Really good analysis there Larksea - agree with nearly everything.

After hearing a few reports from the training camp I'm not surprised that Sivivatu missed out on the main squad - if these reports are too be believed Sivivatu is horribly unfit, and didn't impress in the speed tests. This really showed during the Super Rugby season - even in his good games he seemed to fade in out out of the games, and was frequently seen with his hands on his knees after a big run. He has shown he still has class, but he really needs to get fit if he wants to force his way into the main squad.

Elliots v Flynn is an interesting one - based on this seasons form they were probably even leading into the final, but Flynn's did have a poor performance in the final. Elliot apparently has had a number of off-field issues (though apparently has improved in this area). If it came down to a 50/50 choice between the two (as it possibly did before the final) how the players fit into the squad will have been important as to who was selected (especially as the third hooker won't be in the 22 in important matches, barring injury).

Do you know anything about Ranger? Apparently some off-field situations with other players have made it impossible for Henry to select him. I have no idea what that even means but I remember reading about it a few weeks ago.

Just remember that Super 15 form doesn't always mean international. In 2010 I expected the Boks to clear up with two teams in the final. I also remember people calling for Mils to be dropped and that Mccaw and Carter were past their best but come the international season they all just hit another level. I am slightly worried as the All Blacks are in our pool!
 
I am slightly worried as the All Blacks are in our pool!

Interestingly it may be that france field a B side against the AB's in the pool stage if they secure a quaterfinal spot before then.

This will be a disaster for the All Blacks if it happens. Scotland fielded a B team in the same scenario at the last world cup and it meant that the All Blacks went into the quaterfinal against france without being tested at all. It's hard to improve against poor oposition or prepare for must win games against strong teams by playing weak teams. It was surely a factor in the AB's early exit last time around.
 
Do you know anything about Ranger? Apparently some off-field situations with other players have made it impossible for Henry to select him. I have no idea what that even means but I remember reading about it a few weeks ago.

Just remember that Super 15 form doesn't always mean international. In 2010 I expected the Boks to clear up with two teams in the final. I also remember people calling for Mils to be dropped and that Mccaw and Carter were past their best but come the international season they all just hit another level. I am slightly worried as the All Blacks are in our pool!

I'm not all at surprised by Ranger's exclusion - don't know if it has anything to do with off-field issues, but I don't think he did enough during the Super Rugby season to warrant selection (he wouldn't have been too far away though). His main issues are that he lacks the accuracy in defence, his ball handling is poor at times, and he often makes poor decision in attack. He did score some great tries for the Blues, but his habit of drifting off his wing in the defence allowed opposition teams to score a number of easy tries down his wing. Likewise he blew a number of try scoring chances in attack by going himself rather than making the easy pass. I actually rate him very highly, but I think he's still got a way to go before he is ready for test rugby.
 
I honestly dont think ranger was even in contention. Sure he can break tackles and finish but he lacks the all round game and composure required for test rugby. I think he's way down the wing pecking order. Even behind players like Dagg, Ben Smith & Kahui
 
You guys are crazy, Ranger would have to be the best tackle breaker in the country. While I don't necessarily think he warrants a starting spot who else would you want to throw on with 10mins to go needing a try? The guy can make something out of nothing unlike many of the other wingers/utilities like Kahui and Guildford who are likely to be benchwarmers anyway.
 
You guys are crazy, Ranger would have to be the best tackle breaker in the country. While I don't necessarily think he warrants a starting spot who else would you want to throw on with 10mins to go needing a try? The guy can make something out of nothing unlike many of the other wingers/utilities like Kahui and Guildford who are likely to be benchwarmers anyway.

It may sound crazy, but many people (e.g. myself, Larksea, the All Blacks selectors) consider more than just tackle breaking ability when assessing a player ;)
 
You guys are crazy, Ranger would have to be the best tackle breaker in the country. While I don't necessarily think he warrants a starting spot who else would you want to throw on with 10mins to go needing a try? The guy can make something out of nothing unlike many of the other wingers/utilities like Kahui and Guildford who are likely to be benchwarmers anyway.

hmmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_gK4K-lUbw

forward to 4:10 for a peak at what Kahui can do vs. a tired defense. And we have also seen Dagg do similar. And at this stage Guildford is likely to be a starting winger or injury cover rather than a Bench warmer.

Being the best tackle breaker in the world is not enough. This is a world cup squad, all players need to be good enough to play 80min covering injury if needed because of the rules regarding squad changes.
 
Yeah you guys are both right actually regarding his style of player probably never being in the frame for a world cup year. Defense and low error rates win the cup I guess not game breaking players.
 
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