All Blacks v Tonga (NZ amateurs of Tongan heritage)

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The country likes to try and celebrate the culture as much as possible, by getting as much involvement as possible. And people are encouraged to further the reach and understanding of it, no matter the colour of your skin or your heritage.

That is what i find so interesting about this. What you describe as participation could be construed as cultural appropriation by quite a few in many other places and contexts, hence my question.
Again, thanks for the answer.

Dont get me wrong, I think it's delusional, batshit crazy, but I wondered how the Maoris felt about this. I can understand how someone in their shoes might not like it and I can also see why they wouldn't give a ****. Hence my question.

 

[BPM]

Nice for New Zealand, but poor for international rugby to have one of the top teams putting 100 up on a team that is sitting 13th in the world.

I also question the point of this game if Tonga couldn't/weren't going to be able to put out a stronger team, especially when they would be expected to lose by a decent margin with a full strength squad. This type of performance is not going to encourage tier 1 nations to play against lower tier nations in the international windows and is totally unfair for the likes of Georgia who are actually putting in the effort, being relatively competitive with tier 1s over the last two years.

What was the issue with Tonga not being able to put forward a strong team exactly?

Me too.

For whatever minimal benefits this height have had for NZ, I can't see anything positive for Tonga to take away from it?

I'd actually argue it's counter-productive. I very much doubt results like this are going to encourage young Tongans (or players of Tongan descent) to commit their futures to Tongan rugby. Tonga should be aspiring to compete at a higher level and fixtures like this do nothing to help that.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

That is what i find so interesting about this. What you describe as participation could be construed as cultural appropriation by quite a few in many other places and contexts, hence my question.
Again, thanks for the answer.

Dont get me wrong, I think it's delusional, batshit crazy, but I wondered how the Maoris felt about this. I can understand how someone in their shoes might not like it and I can also see why they wouldn't give a ****. Hence my question.

To be clear, the maori people encourage white people to participate in hakas

Me too.

For whatever minimal benefits this height have had for NZ, I can't see anything positive for Tonga to take away from it?

I'd actually argue it's counter-productive. I very much doubt results like this are going to encourage young Tongans (or players of Tongan descent) to commit their futures to Tongan rugby. Tonga should be aspiring to compete at a higher level and fixtures like this do nothing to help that.

while i agree, when they planned this they weren't to know that in addition to the five or so players that couldnt play due to club commitments, that another 15+ players would decide not to partake.

 

[Larksea]

This was a very makeshift Tongan side, There are a lot of reasons why but from what I know Italy were supposed to come here for this series but covid put a stop too that and that gave Tonga little time to prepare as a replacement?
There is also the issue of Northern clubs not releasing their Island internationals for test matches outside of world cups. Which really sucks and is one of the biggest barriers for pacific teams.
But you also have to consider that covid made that factor an even harder barrier to covercome this year.

Crazy game, I expected a result like this (90+)
There was a mix of some pretty brilliant all black attack and also some poor defense.
Though Ive only seen the highlights, will watch the game later on today. Was suprised to see DMac only got 1 try but then saw the highlights and he seemed to have a major hand in all but maybe 2 of the AB's 13 trys.

 

[LapoftheRugbyGods]

Can i ask you guys a rather awkward question? Hope you don't mind. Given this day and age and given how progressive NZ is on most issues, is there anyone crying foul when people of no Maori descent perform the haka? You know cultural appropriation and that.
I ask because not that long ago I was watching a game and an American at the able mentioned how it would come across if a white American of say, Italian or Irish descent would perform a native American dance. It wouldn't look good. I know it's not the same, but it's not that different either. Made me curious.
Thanks in advance.

The Haka has been performed by all New Zealanders for over 100 years.It would be fair to say Native Americans have little or no connection to American sports teams so to perform a first nations cultural dance would be inappropriate because the first nations people Im sure would hate it..
In New Zealand its different. Māori people have a sense of ownership of the All Blacks and support all NZers performing the haka. Do you think New Zealand or Australia would of allowed a team to exist with an obvious offensive name like the washington Redskins. Wouldn't of happened.
Cultural appropriation in the end is about power . In the US First Nations have little power so performing their traditions isnt in anyway equitable. In NZ Māori are an important part of the group represented by the All Blacks so its more akin to cultural sharing like how the English who invented the game of Rugby shared the game with Māori over 150 years ago.

 

[LapoftheRugbyGods]

This festival of pacifica rugby is turning out to be a massive fail. All this hype and expectation, talk about a big crowd fir the samoa v maori game but turns out noone want to pay overpriced tickets to watch a second string samoan team play the nz maori at the home of rugby league (bug surprise, not). Will be interesting to see how many come along to watch e amateurs fronting up to guve the all blacks a training run.

in the first half samoa have actually played exceptionally well given their makeshift team. A pretty good contest really.

Yes the Māori or a NZ divisional rep side should be playing these matches. The giulf between the ABs and these side is far too great given these are B sides as a result of COVID restrictions.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Do you think New Zealand or Australia would of allowed a team to exist with an obvious offensive name like the washington Redskins.

Well...


Refresh my memory. That was in Australia, wasn't it?

I personally could give a flying turd, but there is a very easy argument to be made about the offensiveness in the name of, say, the crusaders.

Cultural appropriation in the end is about power .

********. It's one of the silliest concepts ever used. It's about cherry picking and playing the victim.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Can i ask you guys a rather awkward question? Hope you don't mind. Given this day and age and given how progressive NZ is on most issues, is there anyone crying foul when people of no Maori descent perform the haka? You know cultural appropriation and that.
I ask because not that long ago I was watching a game and an American at the able mentioned how it would come across if a white American of say, Italian or Irish descent would perform a native American dance. It wouldn't look good. I know it's not the same, but it's not that different either. Made me curious.
Thanks in advance.

I think this summed it up nicely, Mia fm is a national radio station with Māori focus, presenters/staff/nz music/topics etc

they celebrated Himeno doing a haka before the Super rugby TT final, largely because he did it properly, showed it respect, learnt it from the right people

I'm a pakeha, no Māori blood, but I took pride in doing my school haka, I see Māori culture as an important part of nz


Isn't cultural appropriation determined by the respect shown? Dressing up as a generic character for a joke…not cool, learning about something, taking it seriously and performing as intended…cool

my understanding was acceptance of the haka being performed by the ab has been more and more accepted since people like shelford came in and made them start taking it seriously

writing kapa o pango took a long time working with lots of Māori history and haka experts

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I dont think european clubs had much to do with it. There were some who coildnt make it on time after the european comps, given quarantine requirements. , i dont know for sure, but as far as ive read the majority were personal decisions. Its probably somwthing like if they get injured or get covid then their club has an out clause in the contract.

There were some comments In the commentary about agents advising players not to play as it would limit employment opportunities, sad if true but a sign it's a very complicated situation

 

[Umaga's Witness]

There were some comments In the commentary about agents advising players not to play as it would limit employment opportunities, sad if true but a sign it's a very complicated situation

Right. I dont fully get it, maybe its as simple as the more you can commit to the club game, the more clubs will want to hire you. Its not like french players have decided not to join the french team for their upcoming series, but i suppose in general those players are already more marketable

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Just read kefu saying they get a month off from their clubs, and dont want to spend that in quarantine. They also have to pay for their quarantine costs, mostly.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Isn't cultural appropriation determined by the respect shown?

My experience tells me it is not, unfortunately.
I've seen 4 guys cross the street and jump on a guy because they claimed his haircut was cultural appropriation. I was once asked how dare I was wearing a chullo while walking in a European capital.
It's as if you have to explain why you are wearing a particular piece of clothing, listen to some music, eat a particular food. Madness. And it always goes one way.

Imagine a german asking a Mexican why he is listening to Bach, or a western-euro asking a Japanese how dare he wears a three-piece suit, or enquiring them to test the respect with which they listen/wear. Ridiculous.

I've derailed the thread long enough, I'll drop it.
Thanks to everyone for the candid responses.

 

[LapoftheRugbyGods]

Well...
View attachment 11407

Refresh my memory. That was in Australia, wasn't it?

I personally could give a flying turd, but there is a very easy argument to be made about the offensiveness in the name of, say, the crusaders.


********. It's one of the silliest concepts ever used. It's about cherry picking and playing the victim.

You can't compare the name Crusaders to the Redskins.The term Redskins was always a derogatory name for native Americans. The term Crusaders was a term used by the Europeans for the 3 Christian Military expeditions against Islamic forces. If people perceive the name Crusader as somehow offensive why doesn't anyone mention the use of Saracens which was the term europeans used for the Crusaders's Islamist opponents. If anything that's offensive as its a european Christian word for middle easterners with roots in the arabic term sariq meaning thief or plunderer.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

You can't compare the name Crusaders to the Redskins.

I can and i just did.
Your explanation is batshit crazy: if this offends you then you need to get a thicker skin, I didn't mean to offend you...
The ones doing the offence (alone) do not get to determine whether their words or actions are deemed offensive or not by others. Being offensive and wanting to be offensive are not quite the same thing.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

You can't compare the name Crusaders to the Redskins.The term Redskins was always a derogatory name for native Americans. The term Crusaders was a term used by the Europeans for the 3 Christian Military expeditions against Islamic forces. If people perceive the name Crusader as somehow offensive why doesn't anyone mention the use of Saracens which was the term europeans used for the Crusaders's Islamist opponents. If anything that's offensive as its a european Christian word for middle easterners with roots in the arabic term sariq meaning thief or plunderer.

Interesting topic to jump into for a newbie

there is an actual thread for this if you want to read through the discussion

The name?

Just curious to get feedback from actual Kiwis... what do y’all think about the talk around the Crusaders potentially changing their name? I have my own thoughts, but I don’t think my opinion is particularly important here... I’m hoping someone wants to share some honest opinions without it...

www.therugbyforum.com

 

[LapoftheRugbyGods]

I can and i just did.
Your explanation is batshit crazy: if this offends you then you need to get a thicker skin, I didn't mean to offend you...
The ones doing the offence (alone) do not get to determine whether their words or actions are deemed offensive or not by others. Being offensive and wanting to be offensive are not quite the same thing.

Its simply the facts not sure why you think its batshit crazy . calm down sonny.Its just a history lesson.