Ashley-Cooper summoned back by his club

[TRF_heineken]

to the best of my knowledge there was no lawsuit. That was just a threat. Mourad mouthing off again. Some fall for it every time.

Botha had a great end to his career at Toulon, he won trophies and money he could never have won in South Africa.

There was a lawsuit. But in South Africa, not in France.

And as for trophies, he already won every trophy he could have won in the SH before going to Toulon.

 

[FrenchFan]

There was a lawsuit. But in South Africa, not in France.

And as for trophies, he already won every trophy he could have won in the SH before going to Toulon.

that's funny. So the French clubs are the bad guys but the player gets sued in his own country. Priceless!!

 

[saulan]

that's funny. So the French clubs are the bad guys but the player gets sued in his own country. Priceless!!

He wasn't sued by his country. This provides more background:
http://www.news24.com/xArchive/Sport/Rugby/Bakkies-takes-Bulls-to-court-20080424

He was in contract with the Bulls and SA rugby and wanted to get out of it to go overseas. He was trying to shirk his contractual obligations and wanted to force his employer to end his contract. He clearly lost in the end because he only ended up going in 2011 instead of 2008.

SA rugby did nothing wrong in that regard.

EDIT: and any negativity towards the French in this regard was related to Toulon denying any of this was taking place and then Bakkies having already signed a contract when he was already in a contract with another team. From the sounds of it there was no attempt to buy him out of his contract, there was just an attempt to poach him for free.
This book on page 289 has the outcome of the case:
https://books.google.co.za/books?id...KHW_6D8IQ6AEILTAD#v=onepage&q=bakkies&f=false

 

[TRF_heineken]

that's funny. So the French clubs are the bad guys but the player gets sued in his own country. Priceless!!

Because he was still contracted in South Africa, and he breached South African contracts, so yes, the South African courts had the jurisdiction to hear the case.

 

[FrenchFan]

No problem. Nobody over here sued him.

 

[saulan]

No problem. Nobody over here sued him.

Nobody sued him. He took his employers to court.

 

[TRF_heineken]

No problem. Nobody over here sued him.

You're missing the point, but that's okay. I don't want another debate over technicalities. These threads are just becoming a tiresome debate about technical issues.

 

[FrenchFan]

You're missing the point, but that's okay. I don't want another debate over technicalities. These threads are just becoming a tiresome debate about technical issues.

I didn't drag this into a squabble over technicalities, you did. Whether Botha was taken to court or took x to court IS a
technicality and irrelevant to the thread.

This constant demonizing of French clubs is ridiculous. And it's always based on incomplete media report, some journo's brain fart, the same president mouthing off etc.

As pro entities, French clubs have everything to lose if they get a bad reputation and/or get in the way of T1 unions.

 

[Shaggy]

I didn't drag this into a squabble over technicalities, you did. Whether Botha was taken to court or took x to court IS a
technicality and irrelevant to the thread.

This constant demonizing of French clubs is ridiculous. And it's always based on incomplete media report, some journo's brain fart, the same president mouthing off etc.

As pro entities, French clubs have everything to lose if they get a bad reputation and/or get in the way of T1 unions.

Okay, I'm not trying to provoke anything here, and it's not relevant to the Botha incident, but how does a club "lose" by getting in the way of a T1 nation, where they actively discourage players from joining their country for test matches, by threatening to not pay players, ala Matt Giteau for the Wallabies for the RC, or Leigh Halfpenny for the Welsh tour of NZ.

Are they fined, docked competition points, thrown out of the competition? ... what exactly do they lose?

 

[smartcooky]

tBotha had a great end to his career at Toulon, he won trophies and money he could never have won in South Africa.

1. Currie Cup winners medal
2. Super Rugby winner's medal
3. Mandela Plate
4. Tri Nations/Rugby Championship winner's medal
5. World Cup Winner's Medal

He has all of these, and as far as I know there isn't anything of importance left that he could have won in South Africa

 

[TRF_heineken]

I didn't drag this into a squabble over technicalities, you did. Whether Botha was taken to court or took x to court IS a
technicality and irrelevant to the thread.

This constant demonizing of French clubs is ridiculous. And it's always based on incomplete media report, some journo's brain fart, the same president mouthing off etc.

As pro entities, French clubs have everything to lose if they get a bad reputation and/or get in the way of T1 unions.

So why not change the profile your clubs are showing to the rest of the world? Sure Boudjellal is just one guy from one club that is now creating the demonizing media reports, but it seems like the other 13 clubs in the Top 14, is trying to follow his example instead of distancing themselves from it. Wouldn't it be easier if the other 13 clubs stand together and take boudjellal on, or don't they have the kahunas to do that?

It's certainly not painting a pretty picture from an outsider's view into french rugby. And it hasn't changed in the past 10 years. So there is consistency in the media reports...

 

[FrenchFan]

Okay, I'm not trying to provoke anything here, and it's not relevant to the Botha incident, but how does a club "lose" by getting in the way of a T1 nation, where they actively discourage players from joining their country for test matches, by threatening to not pay players, ala Matt Giteau for the Wallabies for the RC, or Leigh Halfpenny for the Welsh tour of NZ.

Are they fined, docked competition points, thrown out of the competition? ... what exactly do they lose?

credibility.

- - - Updated - - -

So why not change the profile your clubs are showing to the rest of the world? Sure Boudjellal is just one guy from one club that is now creating the demonizing media reports, but it seems like the other 13 clubs in the Top 14, is trying to follow his example instead of distancing themselves from it.

That's where you're wrong. The other 13 clubs are not showing the same profile to the rest of the world. You're just painting everyone else with the same Toulon brush.
Other clubs are not all owned by a suggar daddy and they are not trying to follow in Toulon's footsteps. For starters, they do not have the finance so can't recruit like Toulon. And the one that do have the finance don't recruit like he does i.e. my own club Toulouse.

Wouldn't it be easier if the other 13 clubs stand together and take boudjellal on, or don't they have the kahunas to do that.

Take him over what? Don't you think the other 13 clubs have bigger fish to fry. It would give him the exposure he wants. They're a bit smarter than that.
Most T14 presidents are actually media shy and keep quite a low profile. Shows how little you know about our rugby.
Toulouse is not in the news every week. Our president is a salaried employee of the club. He does not own the club. He gets on with his job and doesn't crave media attention.

What makes you think they're even listening to him. Over here in Toulouse we don't listen to the man. The medias love to relay the buzz the man creates around himself, and every time some fall for it.
he's just a MOUTH. He has never carried out any of his threats of not paying players or blocking their release. Had he done so, he would have fallen foul of WR + set a disastrous precedent for his club, precluding him from signing more of the foreign stars he's after.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Currie Cup winners medal
2. Super Rugby winner's medal
3. Mandela Plate
4. Tri Nations/Rugby Championship winner's medal
5. World Cup Winner's Medal

He has all of these, and as far as I know there isn't anything of importance left that he could have won in South Africa

I was talking about the trophies he won over here (European cups + French league) and money he couldn't get in SA.

 

[TRF_heineken]

credibility.

- - - Updated - - -



That's where you're wrong. The other 13 clubs are not showing the same profile to the rest of the world. You're just painting everyone else with the same Toulon brush.
Other clubs are not all owned by a suggar daddy and they are not trying to follow in Toulon's footsteps. For starters, they do not have the finance so can't recruit like Toulon. And the one that do have the finance don't recruit like he does i.e. my own club Toulouse.



Take him over what? Don't you think the other 13 clubs have bigger fish to fry. It would give him the exposure he wants. They're a bit smarter than that.
Most T14 presidents are actually media shy and keep quite a low profile. Shows how little you know about our rugby.
Toulouse is not in the news every week. Our president is a salaried employee of the club. He does not own the club. He gets on with his job and doesn't crave media attention.

What makes you think they're even listening to him. Over here in Toulouse we don't listen to the man. The medias love to relay the buzz the man creates around himself, and every time some fall for it.
he's just a MOUTH. He has never carried out any of his threats of not paying players or blocking their release. Had he done so, he would have fallen foul of WR + set a disastrous precedent for his club, precluding him from signing more of the foreign stars he's after.

And here lies the problem. He's the only one addressing the Media, that's why we get this one-eyed perception of French clubs looking in. If you it's about credibility, then the other clubs should show us they have back-bone and aren't like Toulon. But from where I'm sitting looking in, it does make me generalise all French clubs the same as Toulon, because that's what we are getting fed by the media.

 

[gaston le gaff]

So why not change the profile your clubs are showing to the rest of the world? Sure Boudjellal is just one guy from one club that is now creating the demonizing media reports, but it seems like the other 13 clubs in the Top 14, is trying to follow his example instead of distancing themselves from it. Wouldn't it be easier if the other 13 clubs stand together and take boudjellal on, or don't they have the kahunas to do that?

It's certainly not painting a pretty picture from an outsider's view into french rugby. And it hasn't changed in the past 10 years. So there is consistency in the media reports...

The profile does not need to be changed because one president is mouthing off, do not paint the rest with the same brush. The media love Boujdjellal if you want sensationalism you have it with him, the other 13 clubs have their moments with each other but nothing more.!!!! Why would anyone want to take Boudjellal on for what reason, they have their clubs to worry about and the last thing on their minds is to worry about Boudjellal and Toulon.As far as painting a pretty picture from an outsiders point of view it does not seem to stop the player from the SH from coming to play here and THEY are stating that firstly a great place to live the most competive club rugby in the world, and they are well payed for it so very happy bunnies.( i took all our SH wives and girlfriends on a MHR Stadium visit yesterday and all were so happy to be here in France) Obviously they do not read newspapers. I do realise that with very few FRENCH forumers on this thread it is so easy for many from the SH to have a go, BUT PLEASE get your facts right before, as giving us newspaper articles is not really what the real truth is.
Yes i have used uppercase once again so do i await the ban !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[saulan]

And here lies the problem. He's the only one addressing the Media, that's why we get this one-eyed perception of French clubs looking in. If you it's about credibility, then the other clubs should show us they have back-bone and aren't like Toulon. But from where I'm sitting looking in, it does make me generalise all French clubs the same as Toulon, because that's what we are getting fed by the media.

From a different perspective, I have often found it quite difficult to keep up with the Top 14 and its news because (not surprisingly) almost all of the news is in French. Google translate only does so good a job. I like to keep up to date with how Montpellier is doing, but I generally have to wait until the next day to find the results or some form of translatable match report. It's quite difficult to find out anything about what's happening from a news point of view, unless it's about boudjellal because he is the only one who gets airtime, because he likes to say things which ruffle SH feathers.

It's difficult to have a different perspective of the other clubs when there is just not that much out there. I generally rely on you and Gaston for any feedback on the league. I mean, up until this weekend Montpellier's english wikipedia page was still showing the Top 14 log from last season.

Summary: I wish the Top 14 had more english media coverage so that it would be easier to keep up with what is happening and to get to know the clubs better.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The profile does not need to be changed because one president is mouthing off, do not paint the rest with the same brush. The media love Boujdjellal if you want sensationalism you have it with him, the other 13 clubs have their moments with each other but nothing more.!!!! Why would anyone want to take Boudjellal on for what reason, they have their clubs to worry about and the last thing on their minds is to worry about Boudjellal and Toulon.As far as painting a pretty picture from an outsiders point of view it does not seem to stop the player from the SH from coming to play here and THEY are stating that firstly a great place to live the most competive club rugby in the world, and they are well payed for it so very happy bunnies.( i took all our SH wives and girlfriends on a MHR Stadium visit yesterday and all were so happy to be here in France) Obviously they do not read newspapers. I do realise that with very few FRENCH forumers on this thread it is so easy for many from the SH to have a go, BUT PLEASE get your facts right before, as giving us newspaper articles is not really what the real truth is.
Yes i have used uppercase once again so do i await the ban !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on Gaston, do you really want to do that dance again???

We all know that the MAIN REASON South African players go to France is for the big bucks they're getting paid. Your scouts at our last Craven Week made that very clear and how much they are willing to pay for an 18-year old prospect. It's money that is impossible to get in SA.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Funnnily enough i talk 2/3 times a week to our SH players lots as you know are SA's, they tell me one thing, are they telling you something different, did not realise you are that close to them, we must meet or are you saying only what you think and certainly guessing the rest. how can you deny a player a normal working wage which is what it is in France for a rugby player, if the SH is not in that wage bracket i understand them leaving, maybe your union should do something about it as i see the countries results are not great losing to Japan and Agentina recently

 

[Which Tyler]

As a rule of thumb - within European rugby, Boudjellal is a forum troll; and treated that way. Sometimes we need to deal with him, in which case we take everything he says with a huge grain of salt, and basically don't believe anything until it's written in a legal contract, rather than a newspaper article. I'd advise the same approach for our SH friends.
Boudjellal is no more representative of French rugby, or European rugby (or hell, even his own club) than a forum troll is of the entire forum - and it's not the job of the other club presidents to take him to task, nor is it really possible - just like a forum troll. Just keep your head down, and hope he gets bored.

As a rule of thumb - (established) players move for an increase in salary, or the chance to win silverware - preferably both. They will usually consult anyone they already know at the club who's courting them, or failing that, anyone in the same league - but ultimately it will be money and chances for silverware that swing things.
Once there, then things like lifestyle, camaraderie etc etc come to the fore, and will be more important than the money - it's easy for these things to be more important than the money once the money is already there; it's also easy to say that when your salary is secured - if the club tested the theory, then the money would soon become important again.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Funnnily enough i talk 2/3 times a week to our SH players lots as you know are SA's, they tell me one thing, are they telling you something different, did not realise you are that close to them, we must meet or are you saying only what you think and certainly guessing the rest. how can you deny a player a normal working wage which is what it is in France for a rugby player, if the SH is not in that wage bracket i understand them leaving, maybe your union should do something about it as i see the countries results are not great losing to Japan and Agentina recently

Probably because of the exchange rate... You know, something to do with Economics, Political issues and policies and all that jazz. Of course the players who are already there will tell you something different.

Do you really think they will say the same as a player still stuck in SA, not getting the benefits they are getting there?? Why would the french-bound players jeopardize their current situation and the huge amounts of money they are getting? Self-preservation.

 

[unrated]

Funnnily enough i talk 2/3 times a week to our SH players lots as you know are SA's, they tell me one thing, are they telling you something different, did not realise you are that close to them, we must meet or are you saying only what you think and certainly guessing the rest. how can you deny a player a normal working wage which is what it is in France for a rugby player, if the SH is not in that wage bracket i understand them leaving, maybe your union should do something about it as i see the countries results are not great losing to Japan and Agentina recently

If you are in contact with them then surely they wont say it to your face that they are there for the money as that would be considered rude. Have to be polite and say what a nice country it is and how friendly the people are. This happens every time someone visits another country its a courtesy to say these pleasantries.