Aussies 'stealing' NZ players

[admartian]

If you guys really want to talk about poaching on the grander scale, much more so than Eorpean clubs stealing fromSANZAR, or PNC nations; just see the US and the NFL pilfering all that rugby talent from American Samoa/Tonga/Samoa.

How awesome would Tonga be if they had all their NFL players?

 

[FlukeArtist]

We must always remember that people will comment about these sorts of things (like the the PI poaching myth) from the perspective of how it appears from their end, and based in their experiences where they live.

An English member of another forum (Referees) put it this way....

[TEXTAREA]Because we live in a country where people who were born here, and have lived here all their lives, call Pakistan "home".
Because we understand and accept it as normal for someone to call themselves a "French Canadian" or an "Afro Caribbean" or "French Ghanaian"
Because we see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived here for a very long time, wave Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

(So) we don't get it when a "brown" person, born and bred in NZ, sees himself as a New Zealander and has a national pride for NZ and a passion to play for his country.
We find it odd and we become suspicious....[/TEXTAREA]

When I read this post, it really helped me to understand why they perceive what happens with PI players here as poaching. They wouldn't expect a 3rd generation Indian living in England to support England, so they cannot understand why on earth a third generation Samoan living in New Zealand, would want to represent New Zealand.

I hear what you are saying, but why then does no one say anything about players descended from English immigrant families playing for NZ?
Once again- it simply comes down to skin colour.

His argument is debunked when you look at the English football and rugby teams, which have black players (descended from immigrants obviously), and the cricket team has had a few players of asian descent playing for them... they even had a captain called Nasser Hussein for gods sake!
Were they all poached?? NO.
Seems weird to me he that guys like that poster (who you quoted) are willing to accept these guys as "English" but can't accept a Jerry Collins as a NZer

 

[FlukeArtist]

Here's a question for you...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7867015/England-name-Tongan-prop-in-test-squad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mako_Vunipola

Poached or not?

 

[donmcdazzle]

[TEXTAREA]Because we live in a country where people who were born here, and have lived here all their lives, call Pakistan "home".
Because we understand and accept it as normal for someone to call themselves a "French Canadian" or an "Afro Caribbean" or "French Ghanaian"
Because we see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived here for a very long time, wave Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

(So) we don't get it when a "brown" person, born and bred in NZ, sees himself as a New Zealander and has a national pride for NZ and a passion to play for his country.
We find it odd and we become suspicious....[/TEXTAREA]

When I read this post, it really helped me to understand why they perceive what happens with PI players here as poaching. They wouldn't expect a 3rd generation Indian living in England to support England, so they cannot understand why on earth a third generation Samoan living in New Zealand, would want to represent New Zealand.

That's weird eh, given that the vast majority of our population are all immigrants. Hardly any white NZers would be more than a 3rd generation kiwi. I find it weird when a commentator or author refers to a Pacific Islanders heritage, but never refer to a white dude's heritage even if their grandparents or parents had moved to NZ at a similar time. You never hear about for example Richie McCaw's (or pick any white All Black) proud English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh heritage. I guess people are more willing to accept a white guy as a NZer rather than a brown guy, even though their roots to NZ may be exactly the same.

 

[Draggs]

Here's a question for you...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7867015/England-name-Tongan-prop-in-test-squad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mako_Vunipola

Poached or not?

He could have been ours!
No, not poached from Tonga, but from us

 

[smartcooky]

His argument is debunked when you look at the English football and rugby teams, which have black players (descended from immigrants obviously), and the cricket team has had a few players of asian descent playing for them... they even had a captain called Nasser Hussein for gods sake!
Were they all poached?? NO.
Seems weird to me he that guys like that poster (who you quoted) are willing to accept these guys as "English" but can't accept a Jerry Collins as a NZer

I don't think he was saying what he believes.

I got the impression that he was playing devil's advocate; essentially saying what he believes that others believe, and how they justify their stance.

Here's a question for you...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7867015/England-name-Tongan-prop-in-test-squad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mako_Vunipola

Poached or not?

Looks like he went to Wales as a child, so in the absence of any other information, poached from Wales perhaps

That's weird eh, given that the vast majority of our population are all immigrants. Hardly any white NZers would be more than a 3rd generation kiwi.

No, thats not right. I would say that MOST white New Zealanders are third generation or more. A generation is about 20 years.

I was born in England but my daughter was born here, and so was her daughter, so that makes her a second generation kiwi. She has just turned 14, so within the next 10 years, she may have children of her own, and they would be third generation, from a mid-1960's immigrant; me!

Immigration to NZ goes back well over 150 years.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

School, age-grade and academy in England - not exactly made abroad

 

[FlukeArtist]

I don't think he was saying what he believes.

I got the impression that he was playing devil's advocate; essentially saying what he believes that others believe, and how they justify their stance.




Looks like he went to Wales as a child, so in the absence of any other information, poached from Wales perhaps




No, thats not right. I would say that MOST white New Zealanders are third generation or more. A generation is about 20 years.

I was born in England but my daughter was born here, and so was her daughter, so that makes her a second generation kiwi. She has just turned 14, so within the next 10 years, she may have children of her own, and they would be third generation, from a mid-1960's immigrant; me!

Immigration to NZ goes back well over 150 years.

1. So what you're saying is that that guy that who's views that you re-posted is stating what someone else's views are?
Irrespective of how much distance that puts between the source, and what you are reporting; it still doesn't detract from my comment re perception of (for example) english people of "english" players vs their perception of who is classifed as a NZ representative (IMO)


2. Agreed

3. I don't think you can make statements like that either. You yourself state you were born in England. My mum was born in England. Half of my white friends have parents who were born in Europe. And a whole lot more have grandparents who speak with a non-nz accent.
Look - the reality is NZ is a young country. Even the Maori have only been here in NZ for 800yrs. And we are a VERY multicultural society (Auckland more so than the South Island - granted)

 

[donmcdazzle]

No, thats not right. I would say that MOST white New Zealanders are third generation or more. A generation is about 20 years.

I was born in England but my daughter was born here, and so was her daughter, so that makes her a second generation kiwi. She has just turned 14, so within the next 10 years, she may have children of her own, and they would be third generation, from a mid-1960's immigrant; me!

Immigration to NZ goes back well over 150 years.

I was just thinking in terms of myself. I'm in my 20's and all my grandparents were all born here, so I'm a 3rd generationer. But I'm a minority, most of my friends have at least one grandparent born somewhere other than NZ. It would be rare for someone to have had their great-grand parents born here.

 

[smartcooky]

1. So what you're saying is that that guy that who's views that you re-posted is stating what someone else's views are?

No. I simply posted it because was a "light-bulb" moment for me, understanding that the British experience and attitudes with ethnic Indian and Pakistani people seems very different from the Kiwi experience with Pacific Islanders.

3. I don't think you can make statements like that either. You yourself state you were born in England. My mum was born in England. Half of my white friends have parents who were born in Europe. And a whole lot more have grandparents who speak with a non-nz accent.
Look - the reality is NZ is a young country. Even the Maori have only been here in NZ for 800yrs. And we are a VERY multicultural society (Auckland more so than the South Island - granted)

I would love to know the real answer to this. I am sure that people of third and more generation kiwi heritage are NOT in a minority in this country, but I don't have any proof of that.

I do know a couple of people who are right into Genealogy, so I might ask them.

 

[donmcdazzle]

No. I simply posted it because was a "light-bulb" moment for me, understanding that the British experience and attitudes with ethnic Indian and Pakistani people seems very different from the Kiwi experience with Pacific Islanders.




I would love to know the real answer to this. I am sure that people of third and more generation kiwi heritage are NOT in a minority in this country, but I don't have any proof of that.

I do know a couple of people who are right into Genealogy, so I might ask them.

Third wouldn't be so rare, but fourth would be. Not many would have all great-grandparents born here.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I hear what you are saying, but why then does no one say anything about players descended from English immigrant families playing for NZ?
Once again- it simply comes down to skin colour.

His argument is debunked when you look at the English football and rugby teams, which have black players (descended from immigrants obviously), and the cricket team has had a few players of asian descent playing for them... they even had a captain called Nasser Hussein for gods sake!
Were they all poached?? NO.
Seems weird to me he that guys like that poster (who you quoted) are willing to accept these guys as "English" but can't accept a Jerry Collins as a NZer

I think this is another misunderstanding. What you and I should keep in mind is that most NZ-white folk are immigrants from England and the Netherlands, and a lot went to NZ during war times.

The difference is that they became NZ citizens before the professional rugby era started, and they went to another country to escape from a threatening danger. They could've easily escaped to the PI or Australia. Point is that they didn't go to NZ just for better financial opportunities, but also for the safety of their lives and loved ones. That is the only reason why nobody gives an argument regarding white NZ'ers. Also, nobody makes an argument about Maori NZ'ers, as what we understand is, they are natives to the land like the Xhosa and Zulu's are of SOuth Africa

EDIT:
Maybe Sam or Nick could also just verify for me. in the case of Mealamu and others. being a proud Samoan is more aimed towards Culture than Origin? you said he was born in NZ but proud Samoan, so I understand he's proud of his Samoan Culture.

Like Afrikaans men are proud to be Boere

 

[smartcooky]

Also, nobody makes an argument about Maori NZ'ers, as what we understand is, they are natives to the land like the Xhosa and Zulu's are of South Africa

Actually, it does. I have people try to tell me that Piri Weepu was poached from the Pacific Islands, and in a manner of speaking he was, he is a Maori born in NZ. These people see a brown skinned rugby player in a Black jersey and immediately see poaching.

There is also a good deal of ignorance as regards cultural origins. Unless you live in the Pacific Region, you probably hear a "Pacific Islander" name and have no real idea which Island he comes from, but for the average Kiwi, its relatively easy; tell me the name (if its not Anglicized) and I will tell you which Island he is likely to be ethnically descended from, without knowing anything else about him or even seeing him.

I'm sure a lot of South Africans could hear a black South African (non Anglicised) name and have a fair idea whether he was Xhosa, Zulu or Sotho.

EDIT:
Maybe Sam or Nick could also just verify for me. in the case of Mealamu and others. being a proud Samoan is more aimed towards Culture than Origin? you said he was born in NZ but proud Samoan, so I understand he's proud of his Samoan Culture.

Emphatically yes!!!

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm sure a lot of South Africans could hear a black South African (non Anglicised) name and have a fair idea whether he was Xhosa, Zulu or Sotho.

Actually it's much easier than that, as the black ethnic groups mostly stay in the regions their ancestors stayed at. In Limpopo you'll only find Sotho's and Venda's.

In KZN just Zulu's

in Free State and Cape Xhosa.

its just in cities and Universities where they come together.

Thanks for clearing that up though.

I for one never thought Piri Weepu was a "poached" player. No media, or commentator ever mentioned anything about him and the PI's and the fact that he's leading the Haka gave me the idea he's a full blown Maori.

 

[William18]

Third wouldn't be so rare, but fourth would be. Not many would have all great-grandparents born here.

I know all my great grand parents were born here. I think all my family were here before at least 1900. I don't this is that common though.

 

[james5000]

I don't think he was saying what he believes.

I got the impression that he was playing devil's advocate; essentially saying what he believes that others believe, and how they justify their stance.




Looks like he went to Wales as a child, so in the absence of any other information, poached from Wales perhaps




No, thats not right. I would say that MOST white New Zealanders are third generation or more. A generation is about 20 years.

I was born in England but my daughter was born here, and so was her daughter, so that makes her a second generation kiwi. She has just turned 14, so within the next 10 years, she may have children of her own, and they would be third generation, from a mid-1960's immigrant; me!

Immigration to NZ goes back well over 150 years.

,
LOL where do you live? because if you've been to Auckland lately you will know that 4th generation NZers is a huge minority, especially every great grand parent being born in NZ.

It gets a bit mucky if you only classify a NZer by how many generations they can go back with all their ancestors being NZ born. If your grand daughter married a pom, your great grand child may still be classified as a first generation NZer.

 

[smartcooky]

,
LOL where do you live? because if you've been to Auckland lately you will know that 4th generation NZers is a huge minority, especially every great grand parent being born in NZ.

Nelson, an enclave of white, middle class Kiwis..... just kidding.

It gets a bit mucky if you only classify a NZer by how many generations they can go back with all their ancestors being NZ born. If your grand daughter married a pom, your great grand child may still be classified as a first generation NZer.

Err, no. That isn't how it works. Its the longest trace line that counts.

In those circumstances, my great-granddaughter would not be entitled to a UK passport as of right if she was born here in NZ.

My sister faces the same issue. She was born here, English father, Swiss Mother but only entitled to a NZ passport.

 

[james5000]

Nelson, an enclave of white, middle class Kiwis..... just kidding.



Err, no. That isn't how it works. Its the longest trace line that counts.

In those circumstances, my great-granddaughter would not be entitled to a UK passport as of right if she was born here in NZ.

My sister faces the same issue. She was born here, English father, Swiss Mother but only entitled to a NZ passport.

I didn't say that's how it works but it was obviously what those other chaps were talking about.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Nelson, an enclave of white, middle class Kiwis..... just kidding.



Err, no. That isn't how it works. Its the longest trace line that counts.

In those circumstances, my great-granddaughter would not be entitled to a UK passport as of right if she was born here in NZ.

My sister faces the same issue. She was born here, English father, Swiss Mother but only entitled to a NZ passport.

If her dad was born in England she can get an English passport.

 

[LittleGuy]

I used to think these convo's got annoying on the forum but it's even worse in higher up rugby circles these days

Tew has added his voice to the catfight....

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9817_8195588,00.html

As well the Fijian coach has accused England of being vultures.....

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9817_8196351,00.html