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Australia v South Africa

Amazing play by the Boks!!

22 for next week should be:

15. F Steyn
14. Pieterson
13. Fourie
12. De Villiers
11. Habana
10. M Steyn
9. Du Preez
8. Spies
7. Smith
6. Brussouw
5. Matfield
4. Bakkies
3. Smit
2. Bismark
1. Beast

16. Chiliboy
17. Jannie Du Plessis
18. Danie
19. Schalk
20. Kankowski
21. Pienaar
22. Olivier
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 30 2009, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Aug 29 2009, 08:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This shows up the stupidity of the current format where everyone plays everyone else three times. It virtually over and were only 3/4 of the way through the competition. The remaining matches will be meaningless dead rubbers.

Roll on Argentina joining this comp.[/b]

Why not kick Australia out of the 3N? They are not able to win afterall? I do not want them removed but the point is vivid for everybody to understand. Australia bing in the 3N as a part of a three way battle for SH supremacy is simply not accurate. The current team is not good and the coaching has nothing to do with this.

Seriously, this is not so surprizing. Australia suffer from having no local player base. This is why they go after NRL players. Sooner or latter they will need to select players base din Europe, even if the rule is to only allow one or two based there in the team it will be an improvement. Look at Australia's options to replace Mortlock. There are none. The options, in Australia, are Cross or Ashley-Cooper. One is a former league player and the other is a fullback. Another could have been Timana Tahu who is another league player. While the other option for 13 woiuld be Lote Tuqiri... yes a league player too. Australia cannot go on with no national competition. The Super 14 is not producing players, certainly not enough in different positions. Some of the Wallabies are poor. Burgess was outplayed to the extent that his international career should have ended in November 2008 when playing vs France. The reason he is still there is a lack of options. This is the same reason why John Connoly played Giteau at 9 in 2007. Barnes and Lakham were there to play flyhalf. Australia really need Mark Gasnier playing for them. Today he scored two tries for Stade Francais. SF were losing and looking like being badly beaten at one point but Gasnier played well to help his team win. He plays in France so can't represent Australia, despite being much better than Cross, et all. This will need to change, and may come under review, if Australia keep losing. There is no way that Tyrone Smith is better. If Australia don't use Gasnier then he could very well play for France. France would be using Brock James but he played sevens for Australia so cannot.

Could Australia's amateur players (no Super 14 players allowed whatsoever) play Canada and the USA in North America and win? I am not so sure. Well Argentina's Jaguars have done so this year. Argentina are moving towards a professional domestic competition. John O'Neill, cancelled Australia's after one year. Mr O'Neill is not doing Australia many favors. His handling of the ARU's international affairs is anti-expantionist in many ways. Australia need better relations with many rugby countries. Its all good and well to move a Bledisloe Cup match to China or Japan to make a profit but the domestic fans need variation and need to see the strenghts of more teams. Australia's low crowd vs France in June in Sydney was really shocking. Vs Wales in 2007 it was too. John O'Neill blamed the Welsh for not having all their top players yet a French team who had defeated New Zealand didn't sell ticked two weeks latter. Australia have not hosted Argentina since 2000 and have not played in Argentina since 2002. Here lies the problem. The fans are, in large part, clueless. This is shocking given that the ARU is in a four way war with rugby league, soccer and Australian rules football. Rugby's strength is that it is international, unlike league and aussie rules. Yet, Mr O'Neill seems to not understand this. He does so much harm to Australia's relations with others. He should be looking to build a future with the world power Argentina.

He should be wanting to act as a regional leader in the Pacific. Think back to the success of World Cup games in 2003 in Adelaide, Wollongong, Canberra, Gosford and Townsville. These venues sold out, or virtually sold out games including Ireland vs Argentina, France vs USA, Canada vs Italy and Japan vs Fiji. The ARU should be taking games to these places. It needs to host teams like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and Japan at these venues. Mr O'Neill pulled Australia 'A' out of the Pacific Nations Cup which made games like these that much more important. Australia needs to take games to the fans. Use these venues and make use of the year outside of the Super 14, Tri Nations and November / June internationals.

When Giteau was 12 the things were better for Australia. This is when the team scored tries. He should be playing here. Cooper was better at 10 but Brock James is what is missing. I have said so a few times already. Flyhalf play does not need to be a star like Carter or Hernandez. Wilkinson certainly has little play making skills compared to these guys, yet he controls play. Andy goode does too. He replaced a Giteau like player (Danny Cipriani) and England were better off. Organization is key at flyhalf. Brock James has this. Morne Steyn is a rubbish runner yet has this too. Why has Ronan O'Gara been the man for Ireland for so long? Cooper, Beale, O'Connor and Giteau are all immensely talented but most are better at other positions. The Wallaby backline is very unbalanced.

A balanced backline would be:

10 James
11 Ioane
12 Giteau
13 Gasnier
14 Mitchell
15 Ashley-Cooper
[/b][/quote]

Australia's problem lies in the forwards. They don't have a front 5 and SA killed them at the breakdown. To compound that, their link between a shitty pack and the fantastic footballers in their backline is Burgess, who is also ****. It's not really fair to criticise the rest of the backline considering how many players are missing.

The backs, if they're all fit, have an abundance of talent.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Aug 30 2009, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I say that on the basis of Bryan Habana's second try. Seeing as you're an ex-referee, I'm wondering what your take is on the fact South Africa created a try scoring oppurtunity and fluffed it, but that wasn't deemed advantage enough, so they got another go at it and scored off the resulting scrum. A couple of minutes later, Australia were given an advantage from a knock on, had no advantage whatsoever, as all they'd done was set the ruck up really, and advantage was called over (this wa around the halfway mark, if that makes any difference).

Other than that, and a few knock ons that appeared to have gone backwards, I'd have to agree with what you said as well.[/b]


Remember there are two types of advantage played, penalty advantage and scrum advantage, and within those two types, there two "sub-types"... tactical and territorial.

I have posted this elsewhere in this forum, but FYI here is the advantage law - note clause ( a )

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
LAW 8.1 ADVANTAGE IN PRACTICE
( a ) The referee is sole judge of whether or not a team has gained an advantage. The referee
has wide discretion when making decisions.

( b ) Advantage can be either territorial or tactical.
( c ) Territorial advantage means a gain in ground.
( d ) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.[/b]


For penalty advantage, the amount of territory or tactical advantage must be greater than it is for a scrum advantage before advantage over is called.

Here are a couple of examples;

Scrum Advantage
Red 13 accidentally knocks-on in a tackle in the centre of his own 22. Blue 12 picks up the ball and fires a wide pass to a Blue 13 on his right and Blue now have a 3:1 overlap - ADVANTAGE OVER.

Penalty advantage
Red 13 deliberately knocks-on in a tackle in the centre of his own 22. Blue 12 picks up the ball and fires a wide pass to a Blue 13 on his right and Blue now have a 3:1 overlap - STILL PLAYING ADVANTAGE - The ball gets quickly through the hands to Blue 14 down the right touch...

► Blue 14 scores the try - ADVANTAGE OVER - try scored
► Blue 14 knocks the ball on - NO ADVANTAGE - come back to the centre of the 22 for penalty to Blue
► Blue 14 is tacked into touch 10m out - NO ADVANTAGE - come back to the centre of the 22 for penalty to Blue

Interestingly, if you took the Penalty advantage scenario and cracked it to the othe end of the field.......

Penalty advantage
Red 13 deliberately knocks-on in a tackle in the centre of his opponents' 22. Blue 12 picks up the ball and fires a wide pass to a Blue 13 on his right and Blue now have a 3:1 overlap - STILL PLAYING ADVANTAGE - The ball gets quickly through the hands to Blue 14 down the right touch...

► Blue 14 runs the length of the field and scores the try - ADVANTAGE OVER - try scored
► Blue 14 knocks the ball on - NO ADVANTAGE - come back to the centre of the 22 for penalty to Blue
Blue 14 runs almost the length of the field but is tacked into touch 10m out - ADVANTAGE OVER (big territorial gain)
 
Guess Aussies weren't complaining in the first half when Australia went forwards 10m from a foul committed, lost it, and then had play brought back as they had gained 'no advantage'.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KZNSharksFan @ Aug 30 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
No running game? They put up a sum total of 2 high balls in the first half and only reverted to a kicking game once they had the game in the bag. The midfield is NOT clueless in attack ffs! JDV didn't have an amazing game, but he was still solid, and anyone who watches that midfield regularly will know it is very capable. I enjoyed it very much but I think the Boks let the foot off a bit at the end and Australia capitalised fully on this.[/b]
I missed the first 15 mins, so that had to be when all the wonderful running took place.

Apart from that, it's all crash ball, with the odd excellent set piece move in opposition 22. BOKs did get one move flowing through midfield in the second half, but that was off a quick break out from a turnover and Aus were scrambling back. Just before that they'd put it through midfield and JDV got turned over - that's the liability they always try to avoid.

But you're right - SA midfield is very capable in defence, until BOD starts running at them. See ya in Novemba!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 30 2009, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
A balanced backline would be:

10 James
11 Ioane
12 Giteau
13 Gasnier
14 Mitchell
15 Ashley-Cooper[/b]

Yeah.. if we wanted to lose....

9. Genia
10. Giteau
11. Hynes
12. Barnes
13. Ioane
14. Mitchell
15. Ashley-Cooper

And we would need Chris Latham to drink some anti aging potion and come back to his prime.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Aug 31 2009, 01:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KZNSharksFan @ Aug 30 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No running game? They put up a sum total of 2 high balls in the first half and only reverted to a kicking game once they had the game in the bag. The midfield is NOT clueless in attack ffs! JDV didn't have an amazing game, but he was still solid, and anyone who watches that midfield regularly will know it is very capable. I enjoyed it very much but I think the Boks let the foot off a bit at the end and Australia capitalised fully on this.[/b]
I missed the first 15 mins, so that had to be when all the wonderful running took place.

Apart from that, it's all crash ball, with the odd excellent set piece move in opposition 22. BOKs did get one move flowing through midfield in the second half, but that was off a quick break out from a turnover and Aus were scrambling back. Just before that they'd put it through midfield and JDV got turned over - that's the liability they always try to avoid.

But you're right - SA midfield is very capable in defence, until BOD starts running at them. See ya in Novemba!
[/b][/quote]
man im going to enjoy it when we scalp that baby green wannabe team of yours in november. Unless ofcourse you cheat again. . .
 
First up congrats to South Africa, think the game plan caught the Wallaby brains trust by surprise.

Australia were woeful out there on Saturday night and can play a lot better football, think it's the pressure the Blacks and more over the Saffas are putting on their ball distributors that is causing some problems ... plus a generally second rate forward pack IMHO.

Please note Melhor Times's pointing to regional stadiums selling out, and remember that when the tumble weeds roll through the Melbourne stadium when the new S15 franchise fails to fire up the locals.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Aug 31 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KZNSharksFan @ Aug 30 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No running game? They put up a sum total of 2 high balls in the first half and only reverted to a kicking game once they had the game in the bag. The midfield is NOT clueless in attack ffs! JDV didn't have an amazing game, but he was still solid, and anyone who watches that midfield regularly will know it is very capable. I enjoyed it very much but I think the Boks let the foot off a bit at the end and Australia capitalised fully on this.[/b]
I missed the first 15 mins, so that had to be when all the wonderful running took place.

Apart from that, it's all crash ball, with the odd excellent set piece move in opposition 22. BOKs did get one move flowing through midfield in the second half, but that was off a quick break out from a turnover and Aus were scrambling back. Just before that they'd put it through midfield and JDV got turned over - that's the liability they always try to avoid.

But you're right - SA midfield is very capable in defence, until BOD starts running at them. See ya in Novemba!
[/b][/quote]

Maybe your boys can make it 4 out of 18 for the games played so far betweeen us :p . Also tell the men in Green it is time to venture out of the Emerald Isles and visit SA for a bit of rugby and SA hospitality.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melhor Time @ Aug 30 2009, 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Aug 29 2009, 08:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This shows up the stupidity of the current format where everyone plays everyone else three times. It virtually over and were only 3/4 of the way through the competition. The remaining matches will be meaningless dead rubbers.

Roll on Argentina joining this comp.[/b]

Why not kick Australia out of the 3N? They are not able to win afterall? I do not want them removed but the point is vivid for everybody to understand. Australia bing in the 3N as a part of a three way battle for SH supremacy is simply not accurate. The current team is not good and the coaching has nothing to do with this.

Seriously, this is not so surprizing. Australia suffer from having no local player base. This is why they go after NRL players. Sooner or latter they will need to select players base din Europe, even if the rule is to only allow one or two based there in the team it will be an improvement. Look at Australia's options to replace Mortlock. There are none. The options, in Australia, are Cross or Ashley-Cooper. One is a former league player and the other is a fullback. Another could have been Timana Tahu who is another league player. While the other option for 13 woiuld be Lote Tuqiri... yes a league player too. Australia cannot go on with no national competition. The Super 14 is not producing players, certainly not enough in different positions. Some of the Wallabies are poor. Burgess was outplayed to the extent that his international career should have ended in November 2008 when playing vs France. The reason he is still there is a lack of options. This is the same reason why John Connoly played Giteau at 9 in 2007. Barnes and Lakham were there to play flyhalf. Australia really need Mark Gasnier playing for them. Today he scored two tries for Stade Francais. SF were losing and looking like being badly beaten at one point but Gasnier played well to help his team win. He plays in France so can't represent Australia, despite being much better than Cross, et all. This will need to change, and may come under review, if Australia keep losing. There is no way that Tyrone Smith is better. If Australia don't use Gasnier then he could very well play for France. France would be using Brock James but he played sevens for Australia so cannot.

Could Australia's amateur players (no Super 14 players allowed whatsoever) play Canada and the USA in North America and win? I am not so sure. Well Argentina's Jaguars have done so this year. Argentina are moving towards a professional domestic competition. John O'Neill, cancelled Australia's after one year. Mr O'Neill is not doing Australia many favors. His handling of the ARU's international affairs is anti-expantionist in many ways. Australia need better relations with many rugby countries. Its all good and well to move a Bledisloe Cup match to China or Japan to make a profit but the domestic fans need variation and need to see the strenghts of more teams. Australia's low crowd vs France in June in Sydney was really shocking. Vs Wales in 2007 it was too. John O'Neill blamed the Welsh for not having all their top players yet a French team who had defeated New Zealand didn't sell ticked two weeks latter. Australia have not hosted Argentina since 2000 and have not played in Argentina since 2002. Here lies the problem. The fans are, in large part, clueless. This is shocking given that the ARU is in a four way war with rugby league, soccer and Australian rules football. Rugby's strength is that it is international, unlike league and aussie rules. Yet, Mr O'Neill seems to not understand this. He does so much harm to Australia's relations with others. He should be looking to build a future with the world power Argentina.

He should be wanting to act as a regional leader in the Pacific. Think back to the success of World Cup games in 2003 in Adelaide, Wollongong, Canberra, Gosford and Townsville. These venues sold out, or virtually sold out games including Ireland vs Argentina, France vs USA, Canada vs Italy and Japan vs Fiji. The ARU should be taking games to these places. It needs to host teams like Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and Japan at these venues. Mr O'Neill pulled Australia 'A' out of the Pacific Nations Cup which made games like these that much more important. Australia needs to take games to the fans. Use these venues and make use of the year outside of the Super 14, Tri Nations and November / June internationals.

When Giteau was 12 the things were better for Australia. This is when the team scored tries. He should be playing here. Cooper was better at 10 but Brock James is what is missing. I have said so a few times already. Flyhalf play does not need to be a star like Carter or Hernandez. Wilkinson certainly has little play making skills compared to these guys, yet he controls play. Andy goode does too. He replaced a Giteau like player (Danny Cipriani) and England were better off. Organization is key at flyhalf. Brock James has this. Morne Steyn is a rubbish runner yet has this too. Why has Ronan O'Gara been the man for Ireland for so long? Cooper, Beale, O'Connor and Giteau are all immensely talented but most are better at other positions. The Wallaby backline is very unbalanced.

A balanced backline would be:

10 James
11 Ioane
12 Giteau
13 Gasnier
14 Mitchell
15 Ashley-Cooper
[/b][/quote]
What a stupid statement. Boks came last in last years Tri Nations, and Australia could have won had they beaten the All Blacks in the final game. I get what you are saying about reorganising the back lines, however people are all ways so keen for change when it was about two months ago when people were saying that Matt Giteau is the best 1st Five in the world. I hate rugby fans that are soo fickle.
 
I'd play Giteau at inside centre myself. I never said he was the best flyhalf in the world either. Barnes played well after he moved from 12 to 10 for the Reds, and he plays more of a traditionalist game whereas Giteau is more about running the ball, looking for gaps and setting up others around him. I think it would work in the best interests of the team for them to switch. Possibly play Barnes at 12 in defence as he is a better defender.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wally @ Aug 31 2009, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I'd play Giteau at inside centre myself. I never said he was the best flyhalf in the world either. Barnes played well after he moved from 12 to 10 for the Reds, and he plays more of a traditionalist game whereas Giteau is more about running the ball, looking for gaps and setting up others around him. I think it would work in the best interests of the team for them to switch. Possibly play Barnes at 12 in defence as he is a better defender.[/b]

I agree on Giteau. He is amazing at 12; he so often slices through the wider channels just outside the flyhalf's position. I think the only thing keeping deans from switching him is the relative lack of big game experience of Barnes and Cooper at 10.
 
Great game from the Boks. Only problem is the scrum & the lose of intensity in the last 15 mins. We've let opponents in at the last 15 mins too many times this season.
 
The Aussies beasted you a couple of times in the scrum, which is, quite frankly, appalling.
 
Unfortunately I agree cyRil. It's a big concern. Os du Randt must be having nightmares about an Aussie scrum bossing a Bok scrum. I must give credit to Oz though, those 2 Aussie props look strong together. No surprise that it's going better for them since Baxter got dropped.
 
Fortunately though, you are solid in pretty much every other facet, and in reality demolished Oz, and made them look second rate.
I love South Africa :D
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Aug 31 2009, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Aug 31 2009, 01:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KZNSharksFan @ Aug 30 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No running game? They put up a sum total of 2 high balls in the first half and only reverted to a kicking game once they had the game in the bag. The midfield is NOT clueless in attack ffs! JDV didn't have an amazing game, but he was still solid, and anyone who watches that midfield regularly will know it is very capable. I enjoyed it very much but I think the Boks let the foot off a bit at the end and Australia capitalised fully on this.[/b]
I missed the first 15 mins, so that had to be when all the wonderful running took place.

Apart from that, it's all crash ball, with the odd excellent set piece move in opposition 22. BOKs did get one move flowing through midfield in the second half, but that was off a quick break out from a turnover and Aus were scrambling back. Just before that they'd put it through midfield and JDV got turned over - that's the liability they always try to avoid.

But you're right - SA midfield is very capable in defence, until BOD starts running at them. See ya in Novemba!
[/b][/quote]
man im going to enjoy it when we scalp that baby green wannabe team of yours in november. Unless ofcourse you cheat again. . .
[/b][/quote]
Of course. But ... when did you last do that scalping thing on Ireland?

You guys have surrendered plenty dyed-blond mullets the past few years, so thanks for that. Sadly, the government finances are so bad we've had to flog them them as wigs for the Eurovision song contest.

Declan Kidney to outwit your cheating Numbnuts coach! :p
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Sep 1 2009, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Of course. But ... when did you last do that scalping thing on Ireland?

You guys have surrendered plenty dyed-blond mullets the past few years, so thanks for that. Sadly, the government finances are so bad we've had to flog them them as wigs for the Eurovision song contest.

Declan Kidney to outwit your cheating Numbnuts coach! :p[/b]

I'm going to eat my cats poo if we lose to Ireland this year. I don't think i will recover from that...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Sep 1 2009, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Sep 1 2009, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course. But ... when did you last do that scalping thing on Ireland?

You guys have surrendered plenty dyed-blond mullets the past few years, so thanks for that. Sadly, the government finances are so bad we've had to flog them them as wigs for the Eurovision song contest.

Declan Kidney to outwit your cheating Numbnuts coach! :p[/b]

I'm going to eat my cats poo if we lose to Ireland this year. I don't think i will recover from that...
[/b][/quote]

Start preparing because I see this being a developement tour and alot of first teamers staying home. However should we be full strengh I might have a nibble myself if we lose to Ireland.
 

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