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Aviva Premiership 16/17 - Round 4

From an England point of view, yes annoyed at no Harrison and Hill. However, does this mean that Brookes is coming back into form again? Before injury and then the following poor form, Brookes was set on being the heir apparent for Cole.

He did play well to be honest but I don't think he'll get to England fitness levels any time soon. Hill just offers so much more around the park and is solid in that scrum. I can see him taking Coles spot as he is the all round rugby player that Jones seems to like.
 
According to the Saints forum, yes he is injured. He was expected to be fit for this week, but apparently didn't make it. No idea on what the issue is or how long either.

Cheers.

From an England perspective, I am delighted that Hill is on the bench. He will learn fast enough from there and will hopefully avoid burnout from playing too much too young. It is exactly where he needs to be.
 
Cheers.

From an England perspective, I am delighted that Hill is on the bench. He will learn fast enough from there and will hopefully avoid burnout from playing too much too young. It is exactly where he needs to be.

Yes, that makes sense. It's easy to get too excited about potential and want the next big thing too quickly. Word of wisdom from Eddie himself have always stuck in my mind that echoes this sentiment:
"'But remember that my job is to make Test rugby players. There's a step from club rugby to Test rugby here, as there is in every country.
'There are subtle but strong differences between a good club player and a good Test player.
'I want Maro to be a 60-Test player. I don't want him to be a 10 or 20-Test player. Sixty-Test players start their career well and build on that.
'Some players you can expose too late, some too early. My gut feeling on Maro is that he's definitely progressing, but he needs just a little more time.
'And if he's going to play 60 Tests for England we can wait because that would mean he's a bloody good player and that's what I think he will be.'

At the time, fans, pundits and media were all calling for Maro. But Eddie and you are right, let's calm down and develop these guys properly.
 
Is it time to bring up this thread agai?
http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/36973-How-much-1st-class-rugby-should-young-props-hookers-play

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 2 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All Blacks, and just moved on so quickly. I feel it's an important issue though - and one I seem to go on about every year, though never in much detail. It was initially a reply to someone else's post, so may read a little oddly out of context, though I've edited it a little to avoid this.
I thought it deserves a proper airing:

Why I don't think young front row players should play more than ~600 minutes (~10 starts / 30 benches) 1st class matches per season before their 23rd birthday.

The growth plates (AKA epiphyseal plates if you fancy heading to google) of the bones fuse around 22-23 years of age; no amount of gym work will change that; luck and normal distribution curves can, but nothing else*. This is nothing to do with size, or weigh, or muscle bulk; it's entirely due to the bones not being strong enough. This is not something you can train; it's a simple fact of life*. It's so much a fact of life, it's how forensic pathologists determine the age of death for skeletons.

*Well, ish; but not let's confuse the issue with drugs.

At the age of 22 you still have unfused bones in your knee (proximal tibia, distal femur) and shoulder (humerus head and acromion); which are the ones I'm most interested in (also iliac crest, wrist and plenty in the sacrum, but these are much less important). Spinal ossification ages are much more variable though; tending to fuse (sacrum aside) in the 20-25 age range IIRC; these are typically more stable however, once they start fusing.
Too much force through these areas before fusion causes distortion causing all sorts of problem, including debilitating arthritis before 30 years of age.

OK, some will be lucky, either fusing a year or so earlier than expected, or simply getting away with it; but for every Healey (who may yet need a wheelchair by the time he's 50) there's a Corbisiero; for every Vickery there's a Woodman, for every AJones there's a DFlatman.
Hell it's not just front rowers either, they're just the ones with the most extreme pressure coming through knees and shoulders - look at James Forrester (retired aged 27 through arthritis), or Martin Haag (needed 2 walking sticks by his mid-40s, 1 artificial knee, the other may have been done by now).
It's probably worth pointing out (again) that it's not just their playing career I'm worried about, though it's certainly an issue; I don't like dealing with patients who need knee replacements in their 30s because they or their coaches were idiots 15 years earlier. It's also not just the top class players; it's just that they're an exaggeration of this, with more training, and more force whilst playing.

To demonstrate and spot the difference: 1st X-ray is a ~20 year old; 2nd is a ~23 year old. Which do you think looks stronger / better developed?
020943ybnps63cn3vqcc5l.jpg
kneelandmarks-253x300.jpeg


Good summary of the ages of ossification for the long bones here:
sidebyside.png


The likes of Corbisiero*, Woodman**, Thomas*** etc are the prime examples of what I'd like to avoid.

* 2000 minutes in 3 seasons before 23rd birthday
** 1100 minutes in 1 season aged 22
*** 1000 minutes aged 19, 700 aged 20, then notably less due to the inevitable injuries
 
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Thank you @Which Tyler

That post is exactly what I need for our local club exec. The older club members are pressuring the U18 stand out performers to make the step into 1st team rugby. A few others, myself and the U18 coach, say this is too early. I have no scientific proof like this, but anecdotally, the issue we have seen at our club is:
Stand out performers in the front row at age grade rugby are pressured into playing senior rugby early. This usually means they have to swap positions and go from front to back row to cope at senior level, and this causes the obvious outcome of that player not willing to reconvert back to front row when age/maturity is right. Then we wonder why there is such a lack of front row every season, shooting ourselves in the foot!
Plus, it is no coincidence that the only 2 front row players allowed to stay in age grade rugby and progress into senior front row from 21/22 yrs old, are by far the most successful and are now playing at a higher level than our club.
Sorry, just realised I may have derailed the thread a bit. Back to the Prem show tonight...
 
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You can probably stop using Healy as an example of it all going well by now to be honest.

Good luck winning that battle Mumbles. My club promoted their last batch of kids very quickly; we've got no front rows out of it (although I think there's one back row who might accept in the fullness of time that the gods want him to play hooker)
 
Oh how i wished Bristol would be more competitive.

Prob the hardest first 5 fixtures in the league though.

- - - Updated - - -

Stupid by whitten miles off from the ball anyway.

I mean how can someone be that far off the ball anyway.
 
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Referee lets Bristol infringe 4/5 times on their own try line without a yellow and then penalises Exeter for a not straight feed at the scrum of all things...
 
This is going to be a very frustrating Season for Bristol... :-(
 
when i last checked it was 17-5 to Sale.

How is Humphreys and Odogwu doing?

Eastmonds hair.....................trying to channel his inner Itoje i guess.
 
Both looked really good.
Odogwu has been throwing himself about in defence, not really got much ball but has tried whenever he has

We just look ****. Almost scored and then got turned over and wuss go 95m and score the other end
 
Didn't expect that HT scoreline at The Stoop. Sarries coming back hard now though.
 
Wow did not see that Saints v Wasps game coming and certainly did not expect Quins to do one over Sarries especially considering the form of quins coming in. Have to also say if I was a Gloucester fan I'd be wondering where Humphreys is taking you. Roll on tomorrow afternoon Tigers v Bath.
 
First game that Maro has started that he's lost!
The flood gates have opened, Sarries/England are doomed!
 
First game that Maro has started that he's lost!
The flood gates have opened, Sarries/England are doomed!

A 31 game winning streak is pretty special however you look at it.

Especially if you look at it like:

LWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWL
 
Quins beat Sarries last year too didn't they? They seem to have a thing for being on of the teams to beat Sarries...
 

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