Brief digression: PSA-era France

[gaston le gaff]

If Bernie was to be President after this season it will be a step in the right direction, he will have the power to make changes and i think there will be changes but he has to be elected and that is the hard bit. Of course it willl take time but everything takes time here there is no short fix but with Laporte as President and a Galthie as coach there would be light at the end of the Tunnel and changes would happen because he is not Mr Popular in Paris, and knowing Galthie as i do he would target the WC 2 years down the road and not immediate success at any cost!!!!!!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

^ agreed. But then again there are tangible examples that prove we can still be successful without a revolution or new world order detonation. We won the GS in 2010 and made the World Cup final although we had a very, let's say mediocre coach. And even under PSA, we did produce the 2012 November tests. So I'm saying even under this bs reign of utter mayhem almighty praise Satan the lord of darkness, we still EASILY have the players to be competitive with but a new coach, and not with additionally a change in culture and environment.

We said after the tests in Australia last summer two things: a) our guys just don't have the level and they're only used to a slow, skill-less Top 14 pace and style b) our guys are fried anyways and needs rest. While of course there's a little bit of both that is right, those two things are far from being the *reason* for our doom.
Again, real life counter-examples: England. a) they don't play a Super Rugby style either, and if anything we've got more skilled guys b) most of their main players play quite more than our main players.
If 'a)' were right, then there's no way we could've competed so well in Tests 1 and 3 in NZ 2013, and even Test 2 wasn't as bad as the score says, and then we shouldn't have been able to contain them to the point of scaring them at home in November. And about England, we beat them last Feb. despite playing our standard artistic game with approximate, inaccurate sequences for 80min.

So the truth is: if only we just had our guys play focused, simple Rugby, the one they know to play. They shouldn't look so confused and frustrated EVERY test match on attack. They shouldn't have so much difficulty mounting a simple up and down ruck-pass movement, or putting a few nice backplay phases together with Parra+Fofana+Huget+Dulin+Bonneval, etc...and now even our defense is long gone although it had worked very well so far, it must be said.
If something is confusing, or difficult and not automatic, cut it out and make it more simple and CLEAR during training. CLEAR, AUTOMATIC, SIMPLE, APPLICABLE BY ALL. i.e. the exact opposite of what Lagisquet and staff are doing. Our guys seriously don't look like they're pros playing their craft out there.
They look like they're all coming back from injury and feel the pitch for the first time in months and forgot to revise the gameplan the previous night because they got wasted on Leffe.

 

[FrenchFan]

If Bernie was to be President after this season it will be a step in the right direction, he will have the power to make changes and i think there will be changes but he has to be elected and that is the hard bit. Of course it willl take time but everything takes time here there is no short fix but with Laporte as President and a Galthie as coach there would be light at the end of the Tunnel and changes would happen because he is not Mr Popular in Paris, and knowing Galthie as i do he would target the WC 2 years down the road and not immediate success at any cost!!!!!!!!!

You're right. It will take a long time. And Bernie president? well that's a long shot. He will have to duck and dodge a lot of bullets and avoid multiple banana skins to get there because they're not going to make it easy on him.

 

[FrenchFan]

This is more complicated than you think. And it will take years.

Rebuilding the destroyed relationship with the clubs is a priority. He will also need to rebuild confidence in the environment around the national side. This is not just about "playing with pride in the jersey". It's about making the whole organisation & mindset attractive to top pros. ATM it's anything but attractive. It's become toxic and it shows in the body language (and post-tour backchat...) of many players.

I also see the national coach role as a negotiator and facilitator with the clubs. Because the majority of the time he does not have the players. Right now it's fair to say that PSA has completely failed to build a productive working relationship with the top clubs which is the corner stone of his job. The recent debacle of the June tests and picking injured Toulouse players is just another example.

This in my view is the biggest failure of Saint Andre's tenure. As a former Top 14 coach himself he should have known better.

 

[Big Ewis]

I disagree with your PSA assessment. If there's a world of BS betw. LNR and FFR today, it's not the single France coach's fault, and he's not the president of the United States of America to make things ok here, he doesn't have that sort of power and it isn't his role. His role is selector, i.e. select players and make them play well, optimize their potential in a carefully hand-crafted system. If the Top 14 suffers from gigantism these days it's money and money only and the poor little Phillipe ain't got a single finger on that.
PSA fails on a coaching level, both technically/Rugby-wise AND humanely, as a paternal/authority charismatic figure. He picks wrong players, tired players, out of position players, and we all know the deep abyss our current staff is in terms of both a game plan, and creating a sound, positive and constructive setting.

If Guy Novès yells constantly, and he's right, and complains France uses too many ST players, what can PSA do about that ? That's the entire system's failure, or rather non-attempt at reconciling. France needs French players to play other nations, it's been that way for a century plus, nothing new here. Toulouse has always been a capital of French Rugby, and the club a wealthy and prolific supplier of quality players. This is so beyond Saint-André, there's nothing to discuss. What the heck can he negotiate that would have a serious weight ?

I agree with your first paragraph though, and the target is clear. Manage the calendar for French players somehow, make it so those French players are fresh enough physically for test Rugby for France 4x a year, create potent environment and culture at FFR and hire adequate quality coaching staff that helps players perform at optimum level.
And if possible, add a little more skill early in training camps. I don't see why we should buy this modern Rugby with big defense and a pragmatic style and completely get rid of our flair. Why should Aus and NZ be so far ahead of us ? No reason.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't know enough of the politics in French rugby to contribute but find the comments here very useful guys, keep it up! I just can't help feeling a test rugby landscape without a strong French presence... well, it just isn't right.

 

[Big Ewis]

I don't know enough of the politics in French rugby to contribute but find the comments here very useful guys, keep it up! I just can't help feeling a test rugby landscape without a strong French presence... well, it just isn't right.

that's strange, I almost feel that way myself. But apparently some people feel it's totally okay as long as their club is more or less okay....

 

[FrenchFan]

I disagree with your PSA assessment. If there's a world of BS betw. LNR and FFR today, it's not the single France coach's fault, and he's not the president of the United States of America to make things ok here, he doesn't have that sort of power and it isn't his role. His role is selector, i.e. select players and make them play well, optimize their potential in a carefully hand-crafted system. If the Top 14 suffers from gigantism these days it's money and money only and the poor little Phillipe ain't got a single finger on that.
PSA fails on a coaching level, both technically/Rugby-wise AND humanely, as a paternal/authority charismatic figure. He picks wrong players, tired players, out of position players, and we all know the deep abyss our current staff is in terms of both a game plan, and creating a sound, positive and constructive setting.

If Guy Novès yells constantly, and he's right, and complains France uses too many ST players, what can PSA do about that ? That's the entire system's failure, or rather non-attempt at reconciling. France needs French players to play other nations, it's been that way for a century plus, nothing new here. Toulouse has always been a capital of French Rugby, and the club a wealthy and prolific supplier of quality players. This is so beyond Saint-André, there's nothing to discuss. What the heck can he negotiate that would have a serious weight ?

I agree with your first paragraph though, and the target is clear. Manage the calendar for French players somehow, make it so those French players are fresh enough physically for test Rugby for France 4x a year, create potent environment and culture at FFR and hire adequate quality coaching staff that helps players perform at optimum level.
And if possible, add a little more skill early in training camps. I don't see why we should buy this modern Rugby with big defense and a pragmatic style and completely get rid of our flair. Why should Aus and NZ be so far ahead of us ? No reason.

no no you misunderstood what I said. PSA and the next national coach are not in charge of relationships btw LNR-FFR and the clubs. That is not what I said. The rift was there before PSA arrived.
What he has utterly failed was to establish a solid working relationship with the coaches of the main clubs he is dealing with. And that remains one of his top responsabilities as the national coach. It won't be any different for his successor.

Toulouse may not always be the main provider of internationals. If they keep buying foreigners as they are (partly to circumvent the 30 Elite group as I've explained before) then they won't be a majority of Toulousains in bleu in years to come. That may be sad but that's what we're heading into at the rate things are going.
There is nothing to discuss?! well read my post again and the interview of our president JR Bouscatel. He doesn't want to be part of the current LNR deal any longer and he has pulled out. This discussion is one of the hottest topics at the club and in the game. The relations are going to get more volatile. We're not done with that discussion in Toulouse with that debate believe me.....

 

[FrenchFan]

I don't know enough of the politics in French rugby to contribute but find the comments here very useful guys, keep it up! I just can't help feeling a test rugby landscape without a strong French presence... well, it just isn't right.

well you could be waiting for a long time Stormer...don't hold your breath...other nations will be happy to take the spot. There's going to be a helluva catching up to do after 2015. A competitive test side isn't built in a day. It takes a whole 4 year cycle minimum. They don't grow on trees......

 

[gaston le gaff]

Personnally i dont think rebuilding a team in this day and age is that that difficult, the players are already there and loads of them playing well and i'm sure we will see that this season again for their clubs.The coach is the guy who brings them together who gets the results who brings the atmosphere and commaradery team support etc etc, this at the moment, France has not got, all the clubs understand the situation the changes in the FFR and LNR will take place, especially if France were to have a disasterous WC. PSA is gone after that and if we have a new President hopefully with something between his legs (Laporte) France will return to its winning ways. People have talked about Mas's failure with the National team take time out and watch him at TOP 14 LEVEL I THINK HE WILL SURPRISE MANY.....this has all to do with the man in charge, as someone said its not PSA fault about the inside fighting, he has his own job to do but he is failing miserably.The clubs are not going to stop progressing Toulon are still on top of the lot but do you think the other 13 are just going stand by and let them win everything again, of course they are not !!! and as this progresses the FFR and LNR will fall farther behind and then change will have to happen. Patience will be a virture here as" Rome was not built in a day."

 

[FrenchFan]

no one is blaming PSA for the communication breakdown between the clubs and FFR/LNR.

However he does have a LOUSY relationship with the clubs. And part of being a successful national coach is to be able to work in cooperation with the clubs. It will be no different for his successor.
And PSA failed miserably at this as well as building a game plan, a team spirit, picking the right backroom staff. List goes on.

Bottom line is the clubs have to be buying into the national side and give their support. In the last 3 years they haven't. Bouscatel and Noves here do not want to hear about PSA and les Bleus any longer. Look at what happened with the group for the June tests. It was a disaster in the making before they even got on the plane. When I saw the names going there, i was shocked because 5 out of the 7 toulousains travelling should not have gone.

Les bleus are going to hit rock bottom this season. And good luck for rebuilding the mess.

You can't have a competitive test side without the full support from clubs and head coaches working together.

 

[gaston le gaff]

The right newly elected President would / could go a long way into rebuilding that gap, and if that was to happen then everything would move in the right direction.
Bouscatel and Noves do not want to hear about the relationship now!!!! but in the future with someone else in charge things could well change, they have to, and Toulouse's ideas may change also. Its no good burrying the head in the sand because one day a solution will arise and then full commitement from the clubs will be necessary, and the successor to PSA could well be excepted by the clubs with greater sense just because PSA could not, does not mean someone else cannot, what happened in the june tests or before becomes stats which show negativity so another reason for change. This is not the end of the world by no means, a massive blip, clubs have gone through the same problems when the pro era start and its still happening, BO and USAP are both fine examples of what not to do off the field and they have paid the price, at the moment the national team is paying the price, but it will change i am close to loads of info and it will happen. Sooner hopefully than later but that is out of our control, we will see if the Nov tests are full houses in Paris and Marseille if not another indictation of "trouble tat mill"!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

I agree with gaston, but again FrenchFan I'll have to ask you to clarify what you're saying. The Top 14 has inflated to a point of ultra-competitiveness, clearly one we have not seen yet and it's only growing. Players are complaining about the calendar now more than ever, and injuries and fatigued individuals are legion, also, more than ever. Freshness of the players is in debate more than it's ever been, and whether it entails lots of issues also, the FFR-LNR agreement does look at that in essence: fitness and physical freshness of players, protection of players, limiting their efforts during the regular season...
You say a France coach is supposed to "have good relations" with Top 14 coaches he picks players from. How is he supposed to do that ? Buy them a Canal+ subscription or give them interesting restaurant coupons ? All a Guy Novès is interested in is having his players; which his club pays and takes care of and teaches how to ball; during a full season so Toulouse can be competitive and at the maximum of its form during both yearly ***le runs. In this day and age, ANY France coach picking lots of players from ANY Toulouse coach will be a problem because clubs can no longer afford to have this occur. Remember how much he's barked this season in particular, Guy Novès ? Remember what he said during the 6N:

"G.N.: Tout le monde sait que je ne suis pas du tout syndiqué en tant qu'entraîneur. Moi, les syndicats me gonflent. Ils protègent les joueurs, très bien. Moi, je peux faire aussi comme Saint-André pour protéger les joueurs les bloquer pour qu'ils n'aillent pas en équipe de France, justement pour protéger leur santé. Cela ne veut rien dire. Cela n'a pas de sens. Il faut arrêter de faire dire ce que l'on veut à certains évènements."

Translation: "I can do the same as Saint-André, I can protect my players so they don't go into the xv de France." Excuse me but how silly is that ? He understands clearly France needs some sort of freshness from its players. It's the first year we actually get almost 2 weeks to prepare together before the 6N, like every other nation. Whether it helped or not in the results is irrelevant, France needs to be physically fresh, and prepared as a team - that takes time and training together. Then you have Novès threatening to not release players. This is the Six Nations we're talking about, a century-old epic tournament, this is France we're talking about. I realize PSA and co. have made it a killjoy and a farce, but it's still the 6N.
He also says about Nyanga's injury back in Feb. after the England game: "maybe we should've kept him here, would've saved him the injury...".
That spirit is downright silly. Yes Novès and Toulouse need all their players and yadi yada, but the international scene has ALWAYS been there. They make it sound like it's this non-event, and they're being nice enough to tolerate the shenanigans.

There's no way to "make good relationships with club coaches" but to compensate them with concrete, and substantial equivalents. Yes, money. Money money money.
How in the world can PSA make nice with Top 14 coaches ??? It's not about talk, it's about 'do'. And the France coach isn't responsible for that, again, whichever angle you're trying to aim for. PSA and his crew are a terror for French Rugby, nobody in the world doubts that, but saying they should have better relations with clubs ??...
other clubs who give few or no players to France don't give a shiit, they can focus on their season and you don't hear them. Even Europe-leading Toulon's excessively loud-mouthed Boudjellal doesn't bark at that too much, although he does a bit. He's only got Bastareaud mainly to give away, and he's even threatened to not do *that*. Il est beau, le Rugby Français...qu'il est beau, qu'il est beau.

 

[FrenchFan]

The right newly elected President would / could go a long way into rebuilding that gap, and if that was to happen then everything would move in the right direction.
Bouscatel and Noves do not want to hear about the relationship now!!!! but in the future with someone else in charge things could well change, they have to, and Toulouse's ideas may change also.
yes and I hope it does for both parties sake. Toulouse will not agree to the current Elite 30 group because the deal completely sucks and exposes the club. So it is only fair our president should react. His job as a president is to defend the club.And I agree with the stance taken by him and his decision to walk out of LNR. This also shows how USELESS the LNR crowd are. Right now the biggest club in the country isn't working with them. Yet they're supposed to represent those clubs.
The 30 Elite Group will be rescinded after the WC. If FFR want to work with Toulouse again. They will have to. This brain-dead scheme is just a political gimmick cobbled together by FFR to show "look we're doing something about the WC".

Its no good burrying the head in the sand because one day a solution will arise and then full commitement from the clubs will be necessary, and the successor to PSA could well be excepted by the clubs with greater sense just because PSA could not, does not mean someone else cannot,

I agree. PSA's inability in working closely with the clubs is a big part of his own failure as a coach. I hope his successor works closer with the clubs. He's going to have to anyway.


what happened in the june tests or before becomes stats which show negativity so another reason for change. This is not the end of the world by no means, a massive blip, clubs have gone through the same problems when the pro era start and its still happening, BO and USAP are both fine examples of what not to do off the field and they have paid the price, at the moment the national team is paying the price, but it will change i am close to loads of info and it will happen.

yes the June test results are stats. But I'm not talking about the results (or complete lack of it, in sporting terms, it was a complete waste of time). I'm talking about the bad blood and burnt bridges over players management btw Toulouse and FFR. This will not go away sorry.
i'm telling you relations will get volatile over the coming season esp. during the AI (not so much), then 6N and WC. The media will be instructed to keep a lid on it. Because let's face it, the confrontation during the last 6N wasn't pretty.

...

 

[FrenchFan]

I agree with gaston, but again FrenchFan I'll have to ask you to clarify what you're saying. The Top 14 has inflated to a point of ultra-competitiveness, clearly one we have not seen yet and it's only growing. Players are complaining about the calendar now more than ever, and injuries and fatigued individuals are legion, also, more than ever. Freshness of the players is in debate more than it's ever been, and whether it entails lots of issues also, the FFR-LNR agreement does look at that in essence: fitness and physical freshness of players, protection of players, limiting their efforts during the regular season...

i was talking about the current deal around the 30 Elite group. It is detrimental to the club as explained by Bouscatel (see link in previous post with his interview).

You say a France coach is supposed to "have good relations" with Top 14 coaches he picks players from. How is he supposed to do that ?

I said he must establish a solid working relationship. We're not talking about niceties here and hand shakes at cocktail parties.The national coach doesn't see the players most of the season. So he has to go out there to the clubs, meet the coaches and work with them in order to establish a sound working relationship that will be his direct line of information about the internationals. This relationship is CRUCIAL to help him follow the progress of the players with their respectifve clubs.
How does he do that? well he has to go and watch the players play. But also meet with the coaching staff of the clubs. Talk to them. Discuss performance, injury, recovery and any issues about players etc etc
He has utterly failed to do so with Toulouse. i'm not asking you to agree. I'm telling you what club officials and coaching staff here are saying. And you can see the lack of results.

Buy them a Canal+ subscription or give them interesting restaurant coupons ? All a Guy Novès is interested in is having his players; which his club pays and takes care of and teaches how to ball; during a full season so Toulouse can be competitive and at the maximum of its form during both yearly ***le runs. In this day and age, ANY France coach picking lots of players from ANY Toulouse coach will be a problem because clubs can no longer afford to have this occur. Remember how much he's barked this season in particular, Guy Novès ? Remember what he said during the 6N:

"G.N.: Tout le monde sait que je ne suis pas du tout syndiqué en tant qu'entraîneur. Moi, les syndicats me gonflent. Ils protègent les joueurs, très bien. Moi, je peux faire aussi comme Saint-André pour protéger les joueurs les bloquer pour qu'ils n'aillent pas en équipe de France, justement pour protéger leur santé. Cela ne veut rien dire. Cela n'a pas de sens. Il faut arrêter de faire dire ce que l'on veut à certains évènements."

Translation: "I can do the same as Saint-André, I can protect my players so they don't go into the xv de France." Excuse me but how silly is that ?

It's not silly. It's an expression of the current distrust, bad blood, rift btw Toulouse (and other clubs) vs FFR-LNR.

He understands clearly France needs some sort of freshness from its players. It's the first year we actually get almost 2 weeks to prepare together before the 6N, like every other nation. Whether it helped or not in the results is irrelevant, France needs to be physically fresh, and prepared as a team - that takes time and training together. Then you have Novès threatening to not release players. This is the Six Nations we're talking about, a century-old epic tournament, this is France we're talking about. I realize PSA and co. have made it a killjoy and a farce, but it's still the 6N.
He also says about Nyanga's injury back in Feb. after the England game: "maybe we should've kept him here, would've saved him the injury...".
That spirit is downright silly. Yes Novès and Toulouse need all their players and yadi yada, but the international scene has ALWAYS been there. They make it sound like it's this non-event, and they're being nice enough to tolerate the shenanigans.

Noves doesn't say he has a problem with the 6N. He is expressing his distrust with the national coach. He can say what he wants about Nyanga's injury. Yannick is a player at the club. The club is the one that has to pay for the player's recovery and deal with Nyanga's absence and suffer the impact of his absence more than the national side.

Toulouse does NOT exist as a club to serve the national side. Les bleus are not Noves' priority. Our club is NOT structured around serving the needs of the national side. You're going to have to live with that mon ami. That is not open to debate or negotiation as far as Toulouse is concerned.

There's no way to "make good relationships with club coaches" but to compensate them with concrete, and substantial equivalents. Yes, money. Money money money.
How in the world can PSA make nice with Top 14 coaches ??? It's not about talk, it's about 'do'. And the France coach isn't responsible for that, again, whichever angle you're trying to aim for.

Money alone will not resolve the current rift. You clearly do not get it. The compensation to clubs has been increased last season. The club got more money. But as explained the current rift will not go away and got worse during the season.

.

...

 

[Big Ewis]

Toulouse's priority obviously isn't the xv de France, who in the world believes or says that. But you're, as usual, avoiding to say more relevant things with these coverups. In stead of telling me what Toulouse's priorities aren't, rather tell me that they will indeed need to supply the xv de France with players - nobody will question that either. Tell me how you feel towards Toulouse, as it always has, supplying players in the future to the xv de France, because like I said you're very rhetorical with your posts and we're not quite sure what you're saying but we're getting glimpses. Are you saying Toulouse should STOP SUPPLYING FRANCE WITH PLAYERS because they've got a full season to be competitive in and are paying for the players etc etc ..? Yes or no. If yes, in what conditions then ? In a way that violates the latest FFR-LNR agreement ? We're back to stage -3. France play burned out players and 1/4 the time other sides get to practice together.

And about money, oh I do get it actually, I know the clubs got compensated, some article stated how much exactly per borrowed player some months ago, but obviously it's not enough - not enough MONEY that is - to really compensate for the loss of Picamoles, Dusautoir, Nyanga, Huget and co. for Toulouse. A club in the Top 14 is facing fierce competition every weekend and struggles to keep alive no matter how loaded the roster, and then there's the H Cup.

It's just a little interesting we always end up talking about the same thing but never come to some consensus agreement. I don't even think there's a debate about what's wrong if you're unbiased and look at it neutrally, which I don't think you're capable of or at least are doing in your posts so far. Both France and clubs have to coexist, and so far it's the clubs that are taking the upperhand.
So again, the debate isn't WHAT is wrong. The debate is HOW to fix it. Calendar's too clogged and crowded, and the international scene hasn't added new tournaments or yearly tours in aeons, still the same 3 periods every year. England, South Africa, New Zealand or Ireland don't seem to be having issues with that...Hmmm, I wonder what it could beeeeeeee............

 

[FrenchFan]

Toulouse's priority obviously isn't the xv de France, who in the world believes or says that.

The priority is to win trophies for the club. Who says that? well thousands of Toulouse fans like me. I'd love you to walk into a meeting of the fans association and tell to their face their club's priority in which they invest their time and money should change to.. les Bleus. What a laugh!!!


But you're, as usual, avoiding to say more relevant things with these coverups. In stead of telling me what Toulouse's priorities aren't, rather tell me that they will indeed need to supply the xv de France with players - nobody will question that either.

not true. This is being questioned by many here incl. the club president. Read his interview, Noves and the coaching staff. They're not exactly "nobodies".


Tell me how you feel towards Toulouse, as it always has, supplying players in the future to the xv de France, because like I said you're very rhetorical with your posts and we're not quite sure what you're saying but we're getting glimpses. Are you saying Toulouse should STOP SUPPLYING FRANCE WITH PLAYERS because they've got a full season to be competitive in and are paying for the players etc etc ..? Yes or no. If yes, in what conditions then ? In a way that violates the latest FFR-LNR agreement ? We're back to stage -3. France play burned out players and 1/4 the time other sides get to practice together.

I never said the club should stop supplying internationals. Bouscatel has never said that. He said and argued very convincingly how the current deal is detrimental to the club and threatens its presence in the elite because it impacts on our competitiveness. We haven't won a major trophies for too long. So he is correct.
If he feels the club's presence in the elite is compromised by the heavy price Toulouse pay to the national side, he has the right to speak up and as president take measure to protect the club. Nothing strange or wrong about that.

Toulouse do not need to supply internationals to remain who they are. I'm 18 years involved in this club and I've no problem saying that. We do it because we can, not because we must. There's no written rule out there that says we must. It's been a tradition. But traditions can and will change. We're dealing with a fast changing world here. And rugby is not some imovable object. Also, it's not a necessity for the club in order to exist in sporting terms, and we don't need it financially.

as things stand it's no longer viable for the club to chase both Bouclier & H Cup AND provide the bulk of internationals. We have done it successfully in the past. Not any more. I want my club to stay at the top. And if that means reducing the involvement of our internationals with les Bleus, then so be it. FFR can get their international meat somewhere else. There's another 13 clubs to choose from.
The thing is the club is recruiting more foreigners. Some of the French players recruited this year are Has-been like Harinordoquy who won't get selected (the club is recruiting too many old players in my view). Only 3 youngsters from the Academy have been signed a pro contract for next season. So the pool of available French internationals at the club isn't going to be that great in years to come compared to what we had in the past. It is what it is my friend.


And about money, oh I do get it actually, I know the clubs got compensated, some article stated how much exactly per borrowed player some months ago, but obviously it's not enough - not enough MONEY that is - to really compensate for the loss of Picamoles, Dusautoir, Nyanga, Huget and co. for Toulouse. A club in the Top 14 is facing fierce competition every weekend and struggles to keep alive no matter how loaded the roster, and then there's the H Cup.

Money is not the issue here. The compensation was increased last season. Has the rift gone away? no it hasn't.


It's just a little interesting we always end up talking about the same thing but never come to some consensus agreement.

never said we have to agree. I've told you before I don't expect you to agree with me - we can agree to disagree

I don't even think there's a debate about what's wrong if you're unbiased and look at it neutrally,

who says I have to look at it as a neutral?! I'm a toulousain.

Both France and clubs have to coexist, and so far it's the clubs that are taking the upperhand.

yes and they will hold on to it as long as they can.
.

...

 

[Big Ewis]

the point of discussion is to arrive to a common point of agreement, the most fair possible conclusion in common that is closest to the actual reality. But I see your mindset about this, and I see the stance you just won't give away an inch of, so our talk stops here. De facto. I'm not angry or anything, it's just by default this is our stop, our train's limit is reached.

Actually, one last thing. Really this isn't a "last thing", this is rather the question you just won't answer: basically, if the int'l game were to stop altogether, entirely for France the side, this would be much better for Toulouse and France the country, right ? Please be categorical and straight-to-the-point here.

 

[FrenchFan]

many threads don't end up in agreements. Have you learnt nothing from being on a forum?
and I don't want the Intl game to stop for France or for any country. What a weird idea.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I think that unfortunately at the moment this discussion will go round in every decreasing circles until change is made and we all know that will not be before the next WC. The one thing that does worry me is that as there will be no changes the rift will become greater and more difficult to repair. Between now and the end of the WC there is around 18 games for France(they have to get to the final and pigs are flying very low this morning) and around 38 for the clubs a little less for some who do not get to the finals, this is 14 months from the WC thats around
60 weeks, so including holidays the French players or some of them will be playing not quite every week but very often with no real rest periods during the playing season and if burn out is to become an issue it could well well raise its ugly head sometime around Sept/Oct next year (pointless mentioning whats happening in Oct next year). As i have said frequently at our club its not maybe the best team who wins the trophies this year, but the team that managers its players with intelligence.
We all know about the 30 player group and the 30 matches but if the clubs because of no choice injuries etc, are going to put an epsoir in an important playing position for an all important match because someone in Paris told them that is how it is, somehow i dont think so, just another good reason for more internal squabbling.France will be back as a great rugby nation that i am sure but maybe we will have to be patience, for this, there is no quick fix!!!!!!!!!!