Brief digression: PSA-era France

[Big Ewis]

So I just watched the Aus Fra Test 3 highlights and I saw an even more awful France than in the first test of the same series. The situation is absolutely miserable for France, but however not for those same players as they play for their respective teams in the Top 14. But I saw such awful stuff in those highlights, it got me thinkin'...:

How BIZARRE is it France just get exponentially worse as it goes ?! :lol:

Briefly:
- PSA takes up the job to start off 2012. It's a tough situation and we get 4th in the 6N. But then, we manage to put 50 past a "good Pumas B" squad, and produce that 2012 EOYT. The one where we put 33-6 on the Wallabies, 40 on the Argies and then halt the streaking Samoans with a series with a tremendous amount of control and consistency.
- Then 2013 happens. We lose the first one in Italy. Nightmare. We were favorites going into it, what went wrong ? We keep losing, but the losses are "respectable" close games with good/very good elements in each one: defense, scrum, intensity...still, Wooden Spoon for France though.
- Then we go to NZ to play the invincible All-Blacks. 2 very close tests (really closer than the score shows) and a blunder. Fair enough, and respectable for a team in crisis.
- We then return home, play remarkable defense on NZ and are one scrum away from the draw, put 40 on Tonga. Still little offensively. A very mediocre game against the Boks.
- 2014: we beat England with the game-winning try. Turnaround for France ? Nope. We get 4th by the end.

It's just downright bizarre when you see that, even though we weren't good collectively, that we at least beat England and produced an okay game against Ireland (which we really, really, really should've won...). Now, this tour of Australia.

Here's the interesting part:
If you rewind, a bit, there's this said game against Ireland which was 10x better. We didn't look like a school team trying to pass the ball in that one. Rewind a bit more, we beat England, a bit more we're playing for a tie against NZ, a bit more, we're competing fairly well in New Zealand's backyard...a bit more, we're beating the crap out of Australia at home.

Just a digression on that concept of looking back just a bit, and seeing how degenerative France are under this new PSA reign...:huh:

 

[Basco]

I don't understand why FFR insists on hiring these inept coaches. They should have brought in Guy Noves IMO

 

[Big Ewis]

Some STATS:
since he arrived in January 2012, Saint-André's victory percentage: 38%.
Compared to Bernard Laporte's 70%, or even the all so very criticized Marc Lievremont's 60%.
We've actually got the same success rate as Scotland during that time (37%).

It's really unbelievable he hasn't been fired, and this just clearly shows you there's more to it upstairs...clearly there's conniving and politics. It's just too clear now.

All Tier 1 nations are at least in the positive for these last 3 years since 2012:
NZ 95%
Boks 79%
England 61%
Wallabies 59%
Ireland and Wales 52%.

(stats from Rugbyrama).

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah, those win % stats are pretty damning. There's just no way France goes below 50% wins in my mind but there it is; 38%.

I really do feel for France. They are my '2nd team' and it is frustrating to watch the level of disjointedness in their performances. I would not know what the factors all are but do think though that it one can't PSA and his coaching team fully and them alone. At the end of the day it's the players- all pro and most of them vastly experienced- that are on the field. They have to carry half the responsibility at least.

I wanted to bag P de Villiers here (relating with the frustrations an inept coach can bring) but checking up his win ratio 62% (unacceptable for us) the rest of the below paragraph did temper my rightuous wrath somewhat and with a lot of time passed his silly statements, an embarrasment at the time, have become somewhat endearing taken out of context;

"Record as Springbok Coach[edit]

As of December 2009, the Springboks have won 17 of their 27 matches under the helm of De Villiers. The 62% win percentage includes a 57% win percentage against the All Blacks, the Springboks' fiercest rivals.[16]​ De Villiers is the first Springbok coach since Nick Mallet to have a 100% win record over the All Blacks in a single year (2009). De Villiers is also the first coach since Nelie Smith to have secured a series win over the British and Irish Lions.[17]"​

​But somehow that is just it; PdV was useless; just no-one can argue otherwise yet still we had some results and that was down to the players on the field so why can't the players take blame for France?

 

[FrenchFan]

I don't understand why FFR insists on hiring these inept coaches. They should have brought in Guy Noves IMO

Noves is not stupid to want that job. He wants to coach a successful team in a succesful club. That's what he's been doing.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Noves is not stupid to want that job. He wants to coach a successful team in a succesful club. That's what he's been doing.

Was doing l agree with you about not wanting that job, it's a bit like English football these days, the expectations of the team are far beyond their abilities.

 

[Jaguares]

Who would you like as head coach of Les Bleus?

 

[goodNumber10]

Personally I'd like to see Galthie.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Personally I'd like to see Galthie.

Hands off Galthie until 2017 when his contact expires but he is the man for the job but will he take it!!!!

 

[FrenchFan]

Was doing l agree with you about not wanting that job, it's a bit like English football these days, the expectations of the team are far beyond their abilities.

He's done it far more times than anybody else around. Can't see anyone else in Europe coming close.

I like English football, Premiership is a great league to watch.

 

[FrenchFan]

Hands off Galthie until 2017 when his contact expires but he is the man for the job but will he take it!!!!

He will stay at Montpellier if he likes coaching. You know he is not popular with the Federation.

 

[Big Ewis]

Personally I'd like to see Galthie.

no you darn Saxon, "personally" you'd want to see Saint-André coach a whole other 4-year mandate !! no, I shouldn't joke about that because world Rugby losing France is nothing but bad news. I wouldn't want to know England are no longer good because of "unfair issues". If you suck coz you don't have the players and talent and know-how, that's just your problem. But if you suck ALTHOUGH you do damn well have the players, then that's just wasted potential, and nothing is more horrible in sports than wasted potential.
As far as we're all concerned, we can really consider France in the current makeup a team with severely injured players. Coz that's how it is, they're like an athlete who got badly injured and we'll never know his true level. Wasted potential. This is what the whole of Les Bleus is.
I'd consider what's happening a tragedy (although temporary, hopefully..) for world Rugby. Winning in Paris just isn't the same thing. Seeing France lose for their haters just lost all its satisfaction. And a tournament like the 6N or a RWC just won't taste the same, because the fifth best nation historically in world Rugby just isn't home atm.

haha gaston, don't worry, contract or not Galthié ain't getting closer to the XV de France than only by a microphone on France 2 TV's distance !! He ain't crazy.

There is a number of guys I'd have liked to see, wrote a whole post some time ago about it....will find and post it later.

He's done it far more times than anybody else around. Can't see anyone else in Europe coming close.

damn straight !

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i think france can have vern and we'll take Gregor Townsend

 

[welshglory]

i think france can have vern and we'll take Gregor Townsend

Why?

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't want to sound like an ignorant prick. But I have to ask:

Isn't this whole downward spiral of the French National team, due to the French top 14's clubs and their ever-expanding wallets being dished out to purchase foreign players? In the last month 2 young prospects from SA, have been lured to France in Johan Goosen and Paul Willemse. Both are under 22 years old.

If I look at the log of the just completed season, the top 4 teams in Toulon, Montpellier, Clermont and Toulouse, all have 15 or more non-french players in their squads. That is a total of 60 players in just 4 teams that are not french players. To me, the french public, is being a bit harsh on PSA. And they must remove their blindfolds and see that where one part is flourishing, the other part is struggling. While the fans, as have been numerously been mentioned on the forum, are more into their Clubs than their national team, they expect their National team to be competitive. HOW!!??? your top 4 teams have together 60 players that are better than your local french players, what kind of message are you trying to send to your prospects for the national team?? While it's always nice to point the finger at the coach, I feel in PSA's case, it's a bit unfair, as the ideas for French-rugby and it's future, are not correct. Your clubs feeds your national team. If your clubs keeps on bringing in more and more foreign players, then your national team will continue to spiral downwards. The quality will become diluted to such an extent that whoever is the coach of France, will have a torrid time as his pool of players will just keep on shrinking, while everyone still expects them to be one of the best in the world.

It just doesn't make any sense...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Another aspect of rugby where the Top14 doesn't help the XV de France is team dynamics.

1) The French probably have the least time together as a national squad of the top 8 teams - I am not 100% sure this is fact but I'd be happy to hazard it is just because the Top 14 is the longest running.

2) Then there is another important aspect and that is settled combinations and playing styles. The fewer club/provincial teams you are picking players from the higher the likelihood you are picking settled combinations. I am thinking of the old Bull's duo of Fourie du Preez and Morne Steyn, old Hurricanes duo of Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith. Genia/Cooper, Ireland has a few as well. And I don't just mean 9/10, 12/13 combo's.

3) Most nations' clubs/provinces also play somewhat similar styles so they basically have the basic structure set when getting called up and it should be more of a case of fine-tuning than learning totally new structures. No-one tajes this as far as NZ with obvious advantages leading to obvious results; the NZ franchizes are basically non-entities in and of themselves if I can put it so simply and rather are just microcosms of and development platforms for the ABs.

So I'd say the French have pretty obvious conflicting interests between the clubs and the national team and should basically accept the status quo and adapt their approach to test rugby or alter the set-up of the Top14. Rugby has become less and less a game where it is about one-off star players' athletic ability over team dynamics. I think the 'fall' of France and Fiji are indicative of that statement.

 

[gaston le gaff]

How about thinking in another way the French National team for example needs 30 players in a squad for a World Cup, 14 teams in the TOP 14 that comes down to 2.14 players per club, taking into consideration that Toulouse and Clermont provide the majority of the players lets say for example 6 from each and often its more than that, this leaves just 18 players from 12 clubs that brings down the average to 1.5 so the many foreigners do not really become accountable as far as the French National side is concerned. We have had foreigners for many years now ,yes maybe a few more at this present time but if you go on %'s its not that many more and you have to remember the Jiff is in place which means this year 50/55 % of squad must be French or have done Club academy before 21yo.
So we go back to the French coaching staff, under Leivremont France lost a WC but the win average was way over the 38% win average of PSA. He was not Mr Popular but better than PSA, the main problem is the FFR, they are antiquated and still living in the past of the amateur days , for them its all about power and all these little people hanging on for dear life onto their little bit of power, i have worked with them in Paris and they are a joke the LNR are not much better and work with them every week. People like Galthie and Noves have been mentioned to take the job but they will not until a complete reorganisation of both the FFR and LNR happens and that will only happen when pigs are flying faster than the already grounded Concorde. I do not want to sound like a broken record but!!!!!!!!! FTD IS NOT PICKED BECAUSE LAGIQUETS DOES NOT WANT HIM, PSA agrees with his muppet buddy so no FTD????? but everyone is crying out for him yet still not picked, ( he was selected for the recent World XV game in SA so someone thinks he good enough for that match), change the coaches and France would be a better team if the right coaches are picked, but that is not going to happen and the FFR do not want oeuf on face!!!!! so as you see people like myself and many more focus on French club rugby where the matches are excellent combat upfront and fast running backs what more do you want week in week out, with some of the worlds best players on show, if the National team suffers then so be it and until the coaches are changed it will so long live the TOP 14 and that's a crying shame, as France could win a WC with the right coaches in place, but next year is now too late !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

^ Gaston, who are you replying to here?

Your post is below my own so I'm going to assume it is in response to me?- but I never said it's the foreigners that's the problem. In fact there are arguments that the inclusion of proven test class players the French youth play against can only be a good thing. My points all are based upon the sheer size/length of the Top 14 relative to other leagues.

You make very relavant points regarding the coaching staff and I don't think anyone will deny that.. erm... a team like France should have a better coaching setup. No one I think is denying that, just that I think there are more issues than just coaching/selections at play here. But of course as an outsider I won't claim to know more. rather maybe an outside perspective can show up a few things maybe someone involved might ignore.

 

[gaston le gaff]

for Stormer 2010, you actually jumped the gun as i was replying to Heineken (should he now change his name as its defunct, H Cup that is)

QUOTE HEINEKEN.....Isn't this whole downward spiral of the French National team, due to the French top 14's clubs and their ever-expanding wallets being dished out to purchase foreign players? In the last month 2 young prospects from SA, have been lured to France in Johan Goosen and Paul Willemse. Both are under 22 years old.

you actually posted while i was doing mine so that is why it appeared directly below yours, but i agree about the time spent before the Internationals, too many games etc does not bold well for the National side, and even more important rest time, eg. Nico Mas, and Fulgence Ouedraogo have just arrived back in the country following the Aussie 3 tests we started training last Thurs, first pre match 25th July, these 2 players will have not time to integrate with the new players before we a what you guys probably don't know about is the politics and power struggles that goes on in the FFR and LNR, some of these guys have nothing else in their lives so decisions are abysmal and until there is a massive shakeup things will not change.

 

[gaston le gaff]

for Stormer 2010, you actually jumped the gun as i was replying to Heineken (should he now change his name as its defunct, H Cup that is)

QUOTE HEINEKEN.....Isn't this whole downward spiral of the French National team, due to the French top 14's clubs and their ever-expanding wallets being dished out to purchase foreign players? In the last month 2 young prospects from SA, have been lured to France in Johan Goosen and Paul Willemse. Both are under 22 years old.

you actually posted while i was doing mine so that is why it appeared directly below yours, but i agree about the time spent before the Internationals, too many games etc does not bold well for the National side, and even more important rest time, eg. Nico Mas, and Fulgence Ouedraogo have just arrived back in the country following the Aussie 3 tests we started training last Thurs, first pre match 25th July, these 2 players will have not time to integrate with the new players before we a what you guys probably don't know about is the politics and power struggles that goes on in the FFR and LNR, some of these guys have nothing else in their lives so decisions are abysmal and until there is a massive shakeup things will not change.