Bristol bottle it

[Jbobo]

Yeah, I'm only messing. As you say, both fantastic players.

:rock:

 

[ncurd]

Two words: Andy Robinson.

The man is not a good coach yet somehow always seems to avoid blame. Sides he is in charge of don't seem to have any composure under pressure.

Yup you only have to look at his international career after what he did to England it was amazing Scotland ever hired him. Still he managed to drive them into ground as well.

 

[goodNumber10]

to be fair to andy Robinson one penalty and bristol would be going into the premiership... they've been the most consistent team in english rugby over the last 5-6 years.

not sure that makes him an awful coach, nor does the scotland debacle - i mean it's not like Johnson and cotter have come in and waved their magic gloves is it?

 

[stus768]

They had all year to prepare for this game. They had the experience of being squeezed out of the final last year by LW so should have been prepared with a gameplan to win the final.

They did not and this should be on the coaches. Especially (as Pat Sanderson said after the game) I doubt Woss were aiming to get promoted straight away and have a lot more work to do to get a prem level squad.

 

[psychic duck]

Yup you only have to look at his international career after what he did to England it was amazing Scotland ever hired him. Still he managed to drive them into ground as well.

Robinson isn't a bad coach at all. Let's not forget he was in charge of England's forwards at at time they were the best in the world, also a Heineken Cup winning coach, turned around an awful Edinburgh side and was then hired by Scotland and had three SANZAR wins with a shït side. Hardly ran Scotland into the ground compared to what any other coach would have done. He messed up his time as head coach of England as he was an awful selector. The horribly constructed back row he was fielding towards the end summed it up.

He has his flaws which were well documented in selection, and I think he needs to revaluate his approach at Bristol. Perhaps changing his backroom staff. But he is by no means a bad coach overall.

 

[goodNumber10]

They had all year to prepare for this game. They had the experience of being squeezed out of the final last year by LW so should have been prepared with a gameplan to win the final.

They did not and this should be on the coaches. Especially (as Pat Sanderson said after the game) I doubt Woss were aiming to get promoted straight away and have a lot more work to do to get a prem level squad.

That's not how it works.

To say somehow the coach is to blame for a one point turn around is bonkers, that's how sport goes if there was no risk what would be the point?

Coaches are responsible for getting together a team that can win the competition... Bristol won the league stages and lost the final by 1 point.

So the simple fact is that Robinson had developed a good consistent squad, that plays good rugby and is capable of winning the competition.

 

[dullonien]

I'd say he's found his level, making flashy breaks and runs against weak opponents. In reality though he's a jumped up 7's player, and was exposed as such last week, or whenever he got a chance against big opposition for the Ospreys. Also his attitude absolutely sucks. I hope he doesn't come back to the Ospreys.

Jeez, you like to make sweeping conclusions about players very quickly don't you duck! You came to the same conclusion about Rhys Webb a few seasons ago, yet look what he's achieving now that he's matured a little.

We shouldn't be writing young players off so quickly. Along with Jordan Williams, Morgan is probably the most skilful player Wales has produced in recent years. They should be allowed opportunities and time to develop. Pivac doesn't seem to have the patience with Williams, which is a real pity imo, because he's supremely talented. Henry almost made the same mistake with Shane Williams, writing him off far too quickly, and we almost lost him from the game before his international career even got started.

Attitude may be an issue with both Morgan and Williams (from what I've heard), but Biggar's a good example of how a little maturity alters a players attitude. He's gone from being a rather petulant teenager, to a calm and mature adult over the space of the last few years. Sometimes these young stars, who have excelled at junior levels believe their own hype, and it takes them a while to adjust to professional rugby where things don't come so easily, but it doesn't mean they should be thrown on the scrap heap!

I don't necessarily think the Ospreys need Morgan back, as Biggar is class, and Davies is developing nicely. But the Scarlets & Dragons could do with some more depth at 10.

 

[Peat]

That's not how it works.

To say somehow the coach is to blame for a one point turn around is bonkers, that's how sport goes if there was no risk what would be the point?

Coaches are responsible for getting together a team that can win the competition... Bristol won the league stages and lost the final by 1 point.

So the simple fact is that Robinson had developed a good consistent squad, that plays good rugby and is capable of winning the competition.

How many times has he failed to get them out of the division with more resources than anyone else?

 

[goodNumber10]

How many times has he failed to get them out of the division with more resources than anyone else?

Twice iirc.

The point is he has put them in a position to win the competition every year.... He's won the league and missed out on promotion because of one off games.

It really annoys me when people dilute a coaches success down to one off results.

 

[Peat]

Twice iirc.

The point is he has put them in a position to win the competition every year.... He's won the league and missed out on promotion because of one off games.

It really annoys me when people dilute a coaches success down to one off results.

I don't see how the coach can be said to have success when he keeps missing those one-off games. There's no prizes for being top of the league table, only for winning the play-offs i.e. one-off games. So, either a coach wins them and has success, or he doesn't.

Bristol's squad spending has been incredible for the Championship in Robinson's time. They really should be out by now based on that and I don't see why there shouldn't questions about his competence as a result.

 

[goodNumber10]

If we only judged coaches on your criteria guys like Mallinder, Brendan Venter and even Ian Mcgeechan would have been out of jobs years ago.

 

[Peat]

If we only judged coaches on your criteria guys like Mallinder, Brendan Venter and even Ian Mcgeechan would have been out of jobs years ago.

Coaches will frequently have dry periods and that's alright as long as you think they have the ability to end it and more ability than you could definitely replace them with. That question should always be there though - can they? Can Robinson?

 

[goodNumber10]

He's had two cracks, got caught with his pants down once and lost out on promotion by one point to the side relegated last year.

They beat everyone, dropped one game all season, lost out on promotion by one point.... Don't know how that can be seen as anything other than a successful season.

The owner seems happy to back him and pretty much said the exact same thing.

 

[Jbobo]

Jeez, you like to make sweeping conclusions about players very quickly don't you duck! You came to the same conclusion about Rhys Webb a few seasons ago, yet look what he's achieving now that he's matured a little.

We shouldn't be writing young players off so quickly. Along with Jordan Williams, Morgan is probably the most skilful player Wales has produced in recent years. They should be allowed opportunities and time to develop. Pivac doesn't seem to have the patience with Williams, which is a real pity imo, because he's supremely talented. Henry almost made the same mistake with Shane Williams, writing him off far too quickly, and we almost lost him from the game before his international career even got started.

Attitude may be an issue with both Morgan and Williams (from what I've heard), but Biggar's a good example of how a little maturity alters a players attitude. He's gone from being a rather petulant teenager, to a calm and mature adult over the space of the last few years. Sometimes these young stars, who have excelled at junior levels believe their own hype, and it takes them a while to adjust to professional rugby where things don't come so easily, but it doesn't mean they should be thrown on the scrap heap!

I don't necessarily think the Ospreys need Morgan back, as Biggar is class, and Davies is developing nicely. But the Scarlets & Dragons could do with some more depth at 10.

Agree with all of this.

 

[psychic duck]

Agree with all of this.

That stuff about Biggar's 'attitude' was always a load of bôllocks from idiots who butthurt that a supposed 'kicking' 10 had displaced the people's hero Hook, a flawed fly half. The love in some have for Morgan comes from a similar vein. He's a flawed player and deficient in nearly every measure apart from ability to make flashy breaks. Biggar has the same attitude he's always had, difference now he's experienced and physically at his peak compared to as a teenager early 20's.

To compare Morgan to Shane is silly. People forget Shane worked really hard on his defence and things that he wasn't always so strong at. Morgan won't ever be a genuine contender for the Wales 10 jersey with the other talent like Patchell, Biggar and Owen Williams around. He should move to either the back three or go and be a 7's player.

Webb was god awful for years until mid last season as well, and I would have released him. He was so hapless following Fotuali'i tactics and control it was embarrassing. He's just thriving now with Biggar turned into a superb player and the game plan shifted from one where the scrum half was in charge of organising more plays.

 

[Jbobo]

That stuff about Biggar's 'attitude' was always a load of bôllocks from idiots who butthurt that a supposed 'kicking' 10 had displaced the people's hero Hook, a flawed fly half. The love in some have for Morgan comes from a similar vein. He's a flawed player and deficient in nearly every measure apart from ability to make flashy breaks. Biggar has the same attitude he's always had, difference now he's experienced and physically at his peak compared to as a teenager early 20's.

To compare Morgan to Shane is silly. People forget Shane worked really hard on his defence and things that he wasn't always so strong at. Morgan won't ever be a genuine contender for the Wales 10 jersey with the other talent like Patchell, Biggar and Owen Williams around. He should move to either the back three or go and be a 7's player.

Webb was god awful for years until mid last season as well, and I would have released him. He was so hapless following Fotuali'i tactics and control it was embarrassing. He's just thriving now with Biggar turned into a superb player and the game plan shifted from one where the scrum half was in charge of organising more plays.

I think it's more that he seemed to get flustered and frustrated and that led him to dip in his performances. I feel he's reeled it in a little bit and now has the much needed ability to move on from each passage of play without letting it bring him down when it goes wrong, whilst feeding on the right. His performances since around 2013 have skyrocketed with his positive determination. Then again, i don't think he had an attitude 'problem' per se, it's just that he's matured like all young men do.

You could argue that comparing any up-coming player with another established or retired legend is silly, but as you said yourself, Shane worked really hard on his weaker attributes in order to become the player he was. All we're saying is that there is little reason why Morgan cannot do the same. He has many of the same characteristics of Shane when he was learning his trade, maybe he just needs more time at a high level (i'd like him to play in the next summer intls or elite league) in order for him to work on and improve his weaknesses. 'But why is it silly to imagine what Morgan can do if he develops in a similar fashion? As we both said, Morgan would probably be better suited in the back three. I quite fancy him as a Winger, unless he gains the size to be a Full Back. However, he clearly can demonstrate the ability needed to be a top 10, he just needs to be given more time.
Surely your point about Webb being awful for years until mid last season proves the fact that players need to be given the chance to develop at a high competitive level in order to reach their full potential. As Dull said, if you just release young players who show potential but haven't got the consistency and confidence then we will end up with very few players who mature earlier, although it doesn't mean they will ultimately be better players. As you say, he was the understudy of Fortuali'i, so he needed time to establish himself and his bond with Biggar, who also needed that time as first choice 10 to get where he is.

 

[psychic duck]

I think it's more that he seemed to get flustered and frustrated and that led him to dip in his performances. I feel he's reeled it in a little bit and now has the much needed ability to move on from each passage of play without letting it bring him down when it goes wrong, whilst feeding on the right. His performances since around 2013 have skyrocketed with his positive determination. Then again, i don't think he had an attitude 'problem' per se, it's just that he's matured like all young men do.

You could argue that comparing any up-coming player with another established or retired legend is silly, but as you said yourself, Shane worked really hard on his weaker attributes in order to become the player he was. All we're saying is that there is little reason why Morgan cannot do the same. He has many of the same characteristics of Shane when he was learning his trade, maybe he just needs more time at a high level (i'd like him to play in the next summer intls or elite league) in order for him to work on and improve his weaknesses. 'But why is it silly to imagine what Morgan can do if he develops in a similar fashion? As we both said, Morgan would probably be better suited in the back three. I quite fancy him as a Winger, unless he gains the size to be a Full Back. However, he clearly can demonstrate the ability needed to be a top 10, he just needs to be given more time.
Surely your point about Webb being awful for years until mid last season proves the fact that players need to be given the chance to develop at a high competitive level in order to reach their full potential. As Dull said, if you just release young players who show potential but haven't got the consistency and confidence then we will end up with very few players who mature earlier, although it doesn't mean they will ultimately be better players. As you say, he was the understudy of Fortuali'i, so he needed time to establish himself and his bond with Biggar, who also needed that time as first choice 10 to get where he is.

Comparisons with Shane are silly as they are a different position with different skillsets. Shane wouldn't have made it as top level fly half. Neither will Morgan make it as a fly half for Wales at the international level. He doesn't need more time, he's not got the skillset. He's progressed through the ranks living off just making breaks, which standout on highlight reels, and people thinking that automatically makes him an awesome 10. It doesn't.

The fact he has spent the season amassing a flashy highlight reels against the likes of Moseley, then was dropped for the big crunch game of the season because he doesn't control the game or defend says it all. He's not going to be a player you pick for tight tense high tension games. Nobody sane would consider a player like Morgan at 10 for a huge RWC game against the likes of England. Maybe a Barbarians game though, or against Uruguay. Otherwise no. As I said, he needs to convert to being a winger/full back full time where he has more chance, or a 7's player where he could excel.

Just because Webb proved me wrong doesn't mean another player will. Webb was extremely lucky to get his contract renewed in 2013 given how awful he had been for pretty much 5 years beforehand where he had masses of chances. And I still don't think he's the best tactically, but the gameplan has been changed to allow him to exploit his strengths in terms of pace.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Morgan would make a great fullback, maybe ever winger (though you'd want him on the ball more than a winger).
Don't feel he has the control to be a 10 - it's all well and good a player really wanting to play 10, but it might not be their best position.
Foden wanting to be a 9 comes to mind, or even Rob Miller wanting to be a 10.