Challenge Cup Qualifying Competition: what's going on?

[RedWhiteGreen]

Has anything concrete been announced as to how this qualifying competition is going to work, bearing in mind they've got only about three months (realistically, less than that) to get the thing organized? Presumably it'll feature the Romanian, Russian and Georgian top sides, but could they go beyond that? Hopefully they won't continue to invite sides from the Italian second tier - not the best use of slots bearing in mind Italy is already represented but other nations aren't at all. Feels like the silence is deafening (that or I'm the only person who cares).

 

[dragos03]

Nothing was announced from an official source yet.

There are various rumours but they kinda contradict each other. According to one, it will be an 8-team competition (possibly split into two groups), of which 4 Italian teams with the others from Romania, Russia, Georgia and one of the Iberian countries. According to another one, it will be a 4-team competition with two Italian clubs, one from Romania and one from Georgia. The other one I've read about is that there won't be any competition at all this season, with Italy and Romania entering one team each straight into the Challenge Cup.

There will be a FIRA-AER general meeting next weekend (I think) and probably the definitive format will be annouced after its conclusion.

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

Will be interesting to see what they do. Personally, if it was up to be this year they'd invite two from Romania and one each from Russia and Georgia. Inviting Italian sides to this makes as much sense as inviting RFU Championship/Principality Premiership sides. One thing the format changes have meant is that there are now four less slots for teams from outside the "Big Three" leagues, which is a bit sad - hopefully at some point the Challenge Cup can be bumped up to 24 sides, adding more slots for the other European nations. This doesn't really make FIRA-AER look too organized, which makes this idea of Rugby Europe sound appealing.

 

[dragos03]

According to the latest rumors, it will be Italian teams Calvisano and Rovigo playing against a Romanian and a Georgian team.

The current situation is surely not FIRA-AER's fault. They were not informed at all about the status of the talks on the reform of the European competitions and were just told at the end that they have to organise a qualifying competition (on very short notice). FIRA is a very small organisation with just 2-3 full time employees and basically no money, it's no wonder they can't do much about this mess.

 

[Croket66]

No contradictions dragos. As I understood

4 teams will play play off : Rovigo, Calvisano, a romanian team and a georgian team.
one of the 2 italian teams will play the romanian team in a home-away knock-out games (20 September and 27 September)
the other italian team will play against the georgian team on the same days.

Winners of knock-out games will play the European Challenge 2014-2015 (one in the pool 1, the other in the pool 3), losers are going to the qualifying tournament.
The qualifying tournament : 2 pools of 4 teams
in one pool : a loser of play off, Mogliano and 2 teams from emerging countries
in the other pool : the other loser of play off, Viadana, and 2 other teams from emerging countries.

both winners of their pool will play in September 2015 the play off with the 2 teams who played 2014-2015 European Challenge in order to play the 2015-2016 edition

PS : excuse my bad english, I hope you understand

 

[dragos03]

I understand, but it sounds really strange.

The worst part is that most of the teams will have to win two separate qualification tournaments in consecutive years in order to get into the Challenge Cup (the 8-team one in the first year then the play-off the next year).

Also, the system is awfully unfair to the Tier 2 teams. Let's say that a Romanian or Georgian team qualifies this year and they have very good results in the Challenge Cup, reaching the quarter finals of the competition. Next year they still have to play the promotion playoffs while the clubs from France, England and Pro 12 are always safe, no matter their results.

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

I suppose it has the advantage of stability in that teams will have to lose a match to lose their spot. French and English teams aren't always safe in the European competitions in that they can get relegated, but there is no way that they can lose slots. Still not sure what the logic of having teams from Italy, which is deemed part of the European elite in terms of 6N and the Pro12 having teams going in to this qualification process - it seems like they're having their cake and eating it.

 

[welshglory]

Probably because being in the pro 12 isn't a long term option for them.

Only using at the moment to make sure their best established players and youngsters are playing at a decent pro level.

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

Probably because being in the pro 12 isn't a long term option for them.

Only using at the moment to make sure their best established players and youngsters are playing at a decent pro level.

If not Pro12, where? Go back to having a relatively weak Italian league? Don't see them getting in to the Premiership or Top14 or anything like that.

 

[Croket66]

GRU president is presently in the Croatian town of Split where FIRA-AER meeting is taking place from 18-23 June. In a publication he said that a lot will be known about this Qualifying tournament after this meeting and that a Georgian representative will take part in it. He said that it could be either a Tbilisi combined team or Eastern Georgian region combined team. Still needs to be decided. He said that the reason is that lots of money is being involved and this is the only way to compete.

http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?p=4122#p4122

 

[Basco]

The new Rugby Europe logo looks pretty good. Hopefully this will be just the beginning and the former FIRA-AER will be turned into a much more effective organization.

 

[Pockets]

According to a couple of sites, it looks like its going to be

Round 1 (6th & 13th Sept):
1: GEO v. POR
2: ROM v. RUS

Round 2 (20th & 27th Sept):
Winner 1 vs ITA2 (Rovigo)
Winner 2 vs ITA1 (Calvisano)

http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?p=4122#p4277

About as good as could be expected at short notice I guess, although it certainly looks like Georgia have the kindest side of the draw. Shame it just seems to be qualifiers and not really something in its own right with a final, but maybe they can do that in future.

 

[dragos03]

What a farce. After years of embarassing themselves in the Challenge Cup, the Italians get to enter two teams and a bye in the first round. While for decent results in the same competition, Romania is rewarded with the toughest draw and a trip to Siberia.

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

It's very short notice. Full agreement that it's not very good. Italy get a double dip, with the chance of two extra slots when they already have a team in each competition. Will Romania, Georgia and Russia enter bona fide clubs or just scratch teams, like previous? Which would be even worse - no point throwing teams together when you could grow clubs.

EDIT: Tangentially, it appears that FIRA AER is now known as Rugby Europe. I thought the stuff about that name was for a merger of EPCR and FIRA AER, not just FIRA AER.

 

[welshglory]

If not Pro12, where? Go back to having a relatively weak Italian league? Don't see them getting in to the Premiership or Top14 or anything like that.

Better to try and grow the domestic product imo. They're a massive country so much more potential. Rugby in england and france started out like it is in italy with small pockets of interest and then it grew.

The pro 12 has done nothing for them and despite reports saying otherwise they'll still have to stump up the cash for the "privilege" of participating.
They've got their lowest ever irb ranking, they're age group sides are still crap, attendances and general interest for domestic rugby (treviso and zebre) have actually decreased. I don't see why some people are so optimistic about their pro 12 involvement.

The main argument seems to be that this will help in the long run. I disagree. In countries where there is an established rugby culture and/or provincial history in sport then this structure is good to implement.

But in italy where there is limited interest apart from small parts of the country and 6 nations tests in Rome they should really be looking at investing in grassroots and pathways rather than professional franchises imo. If it means 2/4 clubs dominating then so be it, let the market decide.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Italy would be better off having a domestic competition involving Spanish and Portuguese teams than Celtic ones IMO.
This is conjecture - but it seems to me that a tournament with latin countries would have more inherent appeal than one against the Celtic countries would and would be more competitive.

Italy have 77k registered players, to Spain and Portugal's 51k and 41k respectively.
I'd even be curious to see what sort of attendances a Maltese team could get - they have 19k registered players.

I have to agree with WG - I haven't seen any evidence to suggest Italy have had any real gains from involvement in the PRO12.

 

[Jayatron]

Better to try and grow the domestic product imo. They're a massive country so much more potential. Rugby in england and france started out like it is in italy with small pockets of interest and then it grew.

The pro 12 has done nothing for them and despite reports saying otherwise they'll still have to stump up the cash for the "privilege" of participating.
They've got their lowest ever irb ranking, they're age group sides are still crap, attendances and general interest for domestic rugby (treviso and zebre) have actually decreased. I don't see why some people are so optimistic about their pro 12 involvement.

The main argument seems to be that this will help in the long run. I disagree. In countries where there is an established rugby culture and/or provincial history in sport then this structure is good to implement.

But in italy where there is limited interest apart from small parts of the country and 6 nations tests in Rome they should really be looking at investing in grassroots and pathways rather than professional franchises imo. If it means 2/4 clubs dominating then so be it, let the market decide.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Pockets]

It's very short notice. Full agreement that it's not very good. Italy get a double dip, with the chance of two extra slots when they already have a team in each competition. Will Romania, Georgia and Russia enter bona fide clubs or just scratch teams, like previous? Which would be even worse - no point throwing teams together when you could grow clubs.

Bit harsh on Italy; Not really 2 extra slots, is it? they've given up 4 direct entry slots, so I can't blame them for wanting to have teams in the qualifiers.

 

[welshglory]

If not Pro12, where? Go back to having a relatively weak Italian league? Don't see them getting in to the Premiership or Top14 or anything like that.

Also if the Italian union were really committed to franchise/rep rugby then they probably would have used the opportunity to form two more sides for the qualifying comp.

So something tells me they've got one foot in and one foot out.

 

[Basco]

The Italian sides are too weak to deserve 2 spots straight into the 2nd round of qualifiers. Hopefully this will be changed for the following season, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. I'm sure they have negotiated for themselves with the other unions to get this favorable situation.