Changes Needed: Remove and Italian side and enter a Russian

Discussion in 'European Champions & Challenge Cup' started by Melhor Time, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    Round one of the Amlin Challenge Cup saw all Italian sides getting thrashed, and badly. The teams from the Campionato Nazionale Eccellenza are not capable of giving Top 14, Aviva Premiership or Pro 12 sides a good match. In round one Bucureşti hosted and Crociati 34-7. Stade Français then smashed Bucureşti 49-3 in round two. The Stade Français side was missing virtually its entire first XV. Elsewhere in round one Petrarca Padova went down 53-22 to Toulon, with Toulon also fielding many players who struggle to make the cut for Top 14 duty. Bayonne won 43-10 vs Rovigo and, again, got the win without its top XV together on the field. Also, the Newport-Gwent Dragons won 33-3 vs I Cavalieri Prato in round one.

    To me, there are too many Italian clubs. At least one should be removed with the Russian champions entering instead. It would be nice to see Krasnoyarsk Enisey-STM in the fold. The only issue being the winter but, surely this is no reason to not get a Russian side involved? Surely matches can be moved or, the season could possibly be adjusted so that early rounds can be played before the winter has kicked in with Krasnoyarsk Enisey-STM (or whomever it may be) hosting its share of matches early on. Krasnoyarsk is far away, in Siberia. This makes it more interesting not less.
     
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  3. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Have to agree with that - nothing against the Italian teams, but they do get 4 teams in the comp, whereas they already have the 2 Pro12 teams in the HEC

    Would like to see the Russians get a go, VVA-Podmoskovye Monino, I think, could put up a good fight
    They've produced/had some great players through the ranks - Vasily Artemyev and Vadim Cobilas have slotted right into the Aviva Prem and haven't looked out of place at all, and Igor Klyuchnikov has impressed on the world stage (I'm surprised he hasn't picked up a contract in Europe), to name a few
     
  4. psychic duck

    psychic duck International

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    I agree about the Russian champions but what about the Georgian champions?

    Georgia have far more rugby credibility than Spain, Portugal could argue the same as well


     
  5. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Remove three of the Italian teams, have the Italian champs, Russian champs, Georgian champs and Portuguese champs in - I'd like to see that


    Thinking about it, it's surprising that Romanian teams are in before Georgian
     
  6. Me 1

    Me 1 Bench Player

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    Don't think the Georgians would get a look in as they're amateur, they only seem interested in professional sides. But yes, I think they should put 2 Russian teams in personally, but I have also heard they were offered the place but they turned it down as they wanted to make there own league competetive(sp) before concentrating on Europe.

    Perhaps they could expand the tournament to 6 groups?
     
  7. kovana

    kovana Bench Player

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    True, Georgia needs a team in the Amlin cup!
     
  8. white bear

    white bear Academy Player

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    Of course, the level of the game at least 3 Russian Club (Yenisey, Krasny Yar and VVA) should play in the Challenge Cup.But only VVA Monino (Moscow area) is located in the European part.It is possible that in the next season VVA will play in the Chal Cup, have to finish the new rugby stadium for 10 or 11 thousand seats.
    ????.jpg
    As for the two clubs of Krasnoyarsk, I think, because of the large distances and the Siberian climateis unrealistic to play in European competition.
    To allow you to compare the level of Russian clubs, here are the results of the international tournament Cup of Mayor of Moscow. Note that the VVA Monino - Champion of Russia (2006-2010) was not involved there.

    Mayor Cup 2007
    Gr A
    Sla 45-0 Agr
    Sla 38-18 Avi
    Avi 8-18 Agr
    Gr B
    Din 36-20 Fili
    Din 14-10 Bul
    Bul 63-5 Fili
    Final
    Sla 14-13 Din
    3 place
    Bul 40-7 Agr
    5 place
    Avi 24-16 Fili

    Table
    1. Slava Moscow (in Russian League seats 3 place in 2007 season)
    2. Dinamo Bucuresti (Romanian Champion)
    3. Blue Bulls Pretoria (amatory)
    4. Agronomia Lisbon (Portugal Champion)
    5. Aviator Kiev (3 place in Little Russia)
    6. Fili Moscow (3 place in Second Russian Division)

    Mayor Cup 2008

    Gr A
    Sla 13-15 Sunt
    Sunt 59-14 Kre
    Sla 52-10 Kre
    Gr B
    Eni 17-15 San
    Eni 46-5 Din
    Din 48-19 San
    Final
    Sunt 10-36 Eni
    3 place
    Sla 41-13 Din
    5 place
    San 72-0 Kre

    Table
    1. Enisey-STM Krasnoyarsk (3 place in Russian League)
    2. Suntory Sungoliath Tokyo (Japan Champion)
    3. Slava Moscow (2 place in Russian League)
    4. Dinamo Bucuresti (Romanian Champion)
    5. Sanix Blues Fukuoka (12 place in Japan Top-14)
    6. Kredo-63 Odessa (2 place in Little Russia)

    And in this year(22 April) in Saransk VVA Monino (3 place in Russian League 2011) 45-40 Grenoble (2 place in France Pro D2 2010\11).
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  9. Jayatron

    Jayatron Academy Player

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    Yeah good idea. There needs to be something done about getting all the European nations involved. Not sure if it should be at the expense of the Italians, seems a little counter productive in my opinion

    Don't think they need four places, maybe two, but perhaps the ERC should look towards cutting the French and English teams to make room for Russians, Spanish, Georgians (who do have a professional league called the Super8) Portuguese, Germans and who ever else.

    I personally think it would add a lot of spice to the Amlin.
     
  10. madflyhalf

    madflyhalf Bench Player

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  11. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    Carlos Amado da Silva, the President of the Federação Portuguesa de Rugby (FPR) said on the country´s officiasl rugby site that Portugal will have a team in the Amlin Challenge Cup next season.

    Russia... step on up.
     
  12. Jayatron

    Jayatron Academy Player

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    Link?
     
  13. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    Portugal na Amlin Challenge Cup
    Em mensagem de fim de ano, o presidente da Federação Portuguesa de Rugby, Carlos Amado da Silva, afirmou que Portugal terá um representante na próxima Amlin Challenge Cup, a segunda principal competição europeia de clubes. O presidente escreveu: Para além das competições 'obrigatórias ', Portugal tem convites para estar presente na IRB Nations Cup e, ao fim de muita insistência, também na AmlinChallenge Cup, para além da presença em seis etapas do Circuito Mundial da IRB, na variante sete." Ainda não há maiores confirmações sobre a vaga portuguesa, mas o provável é que seja nos moldes da vaga concedida à Romênia, que coloca na Amlin Challenge Cup a seleção de seu campeonato nacional, o chamado Bucaresti Lupii.
    Em 1998-99, Portugal participou da segunda competição da Europa com o Portugal XV. Em 2004-05, a Académica de Coimbra disputou a competição.

    Fonte: Federação Portuguesa de Rugby
     
  14. gingergenius

    gingergenius First XV

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    **** me, I can understand that almost completely with my Spanish. Watched Tropa de Elite 2 last night and could barely catch a word!
     
  15. Jayatron

    Jayatron Academy Player

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    Thanks for the link. Surprising they only mentioned it passing. I 've tried researching rugby on the Iberian peninsula but have had little luck. Do you know much?


    Google translate is the height of my Spanish.
     
  16. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    Jayatron

    I don´t know as much about rugby in Spain and Portugal as I would like to. In Portugal the best teams seem to be packed with lawyers and doctors with Lisbon´s Law School (Direito) being the strongest club. In Spain it seems to be like Italy but amateur in that there is a base of solid Spanish players and also loads of imports just like in Italy. Argentine players, Kiwis, etc and even a guy from Ecuador in La Vila.

    I think Madrid and Barcelona should target entrance into the Rabo Direct Pro 12 by 2020. Spain could replicate Italy by producing a few franchises similar to Aironi. They could go pro and this would be the best path - easier and smarter than trying to make a professional Spanish League. Spain gets good crowds for international matches - similar to Canada. Madrid does well.

    Portugal is a better international team but gets smaller crowds. The team will be at another World Cup again soon. Domestically I prefer whats going on in Spain but do think an Iberian Professional League could work and for Portugal would be great. But for Spain it´d be better to try to enter the Celtic-Italian League. Portugal has some imported players like Gardner but does produce good talent like Bardy who plays for Clermont.

    Ginger Genius

    A lot of people are of the opinion that Spanish and Portuguese are very similar and almost the same language. Its a major myth especially in South America where Brazilian Portuguese is about 50 years away from being regarded as its own language. Vastly different to European - more so to the differences from Quebec´s French to that spoken in France itself. The issue with Portuguese is that it is written similar to Spanish but is spoken entirely different. Brazilians can understand Argentines speaking in a limited way but Argentines have no idea what Brazilians are saying. I read once that European Portuguese is like a Drunk Frenchman trying to speak Spanish. Interesting but good comparison.

    Tropa do Elite 2 is a good movie! The Portuguese spoken is Carioca (Rio de Janeiro). I live in São Paulo state about 11 hours from there and have an interior meets gringo accent (I am told). Its really different to Carioca which sounds like they are singing a lot of the time. When I started learning the language it was really tough and I tried using Spanish as a shortcut. I doesn´t work.
     
  17. Aedaphon

    Aedaphon Bench Player

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    It's the pronunciation that's the killer.

    Wholeheartedly agreed though, Russian rugby is clearly on the rise and if Portugal (who are definitely a fringe nation) are getting a club in then Russia should expect a call up within the next 2 or 3 seasons.
     
  18. gingergenius

    gingergenius First XV

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    well I don't think I'll ever be bothering with Portuguese, I used to speak Italian before I spent time in Latin America and built castellano on top of it, and can barely speak a word of Italian now. I don't want to ruin it with something else just now! Have to say though, I used to hate the sound of Portuguese but the Rio accent (from Cidade & both Tropa de Elite films) seems much nicer. My spanish accent seems to change wherever I go, last place I was in was Mexico so now I have a vague chilango drawl which I hate. Still, better than some of the Nica accents, some of them sound like monkeys, better than the Spanish with their lisping, and better than all the Argentines with all those bloody sh sh sh sh sounds!!! Peruvians speak nicely IMO.
     
  19. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    The Argentine sound is definetly different. Buenos Aires has an accent all of its own. Nothing, however, is like as Spanish spoken in Spain itself. The ´TH´ sound is not my favorite.

    I don´t know what´s with the Iberians but Portuguese in Brazil is much nicer than in Europe. Spanish in Latin America is nicer than in Spain too!
     
  20. stus768

    stus768 Bench Player

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    Cut out the lowest ranked Eng and french teams. The newly promoted teams should probs focus more on staying up than playing Amilin, bit of a waste of time. Only thing is they might be upset at the revenue lost.
     
  21. Toko_11

    Toko_11 Bench Player

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    it would be great if we see Georgian and Russian teams out there in future.... and whoever said Georgians are amateur .... how many times should i answer this ... WE DO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE... why do people keep saying otherwise i don't understand
     
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