Changes Needed: Remove and Italian side and enter a Russian

Discussion in 'European Champions & Challenge Cup' started by Melhor Time, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. Aedaphon

    Aedaphon Bench Player

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    Not enough exposure in Europe/down in the Southern Hemisphere. Japan suffers from the same kind of problems... Until everyone sees more of the sides (for instance in the Amlin...) the problem will probably continue.
     
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  3. psychic duck

    psychic duck International

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    The 4 Italian teams in the last Amlin Challenge Cup scored a combined total of 31 points, and all were thrashed by what were reserve teams

    they only need 1 side imo, Georgia and Russia both need a side

    don't really think Spain being in it is doing much good for their rugby, and I don't see why Portugal will be different

    I think Spain/Portugal/Italy should merge into 1 league, and Russia/Georgia/Romania also merge into a Eastern European league
     
  4. Jayatron

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    They're good points. The only thing is that surely it will start to help the Italians eventually, and it does seem a little counter productive to limit them. Saying that you have really strong points. 31 points is crazy. Perhaps the Italians should go back to their own league, and help strengthen that rather than relying on a quick fix. Lets face it Aironi aren't exactly making waves. They need a strong domestic league just not Trevsio.

    Also I really like your idea about those leagues. Spain and Portugal is a no brainer, not sure about Italians joining though. But that Eastern Bloc League is great! I never thought of that. I wonder if it would work and if fans would pay into it? I know Georgians hate Russia so to be able to beat them on a regular bases could really put it punters??
     
  5. fede_front_row

    fede_front_row Academy Player

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    i totaly agree about the fact that 4 italian teams are too much for the Challenge Cup! Italian teams won't give a f**k about this competition, it's pretty clear! in my opinion one team is enough for italy in challenge cup, the one that wins the championship and stop! About who can cover the missing places i don't know, hope no other italian jobs for the uk's and french teams!
     
  6. Scan

    Scan Academy Player

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    Can anyone tell me why the Spanish champions get a place every year anyway? Georgia, Russia, Romania, Georgia an Portugal are all way better! Like the Spain-Portugal-Italy and Russia-Georgia-Romania league ideas. The clubs would probably have to merge into regions or franchises for commercial reasons though, like in the Superiberica de Rugby.
     
  7. Jayatron

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    Romania already have a team in. With Russian, Georgian and Portuguese teams expected to join within the next two years. It is pretty obvious that the Spanish and Portuguese need to get together to form a elite league for the Iberian Peninsula. Not sure about Italy getting involved.

    Have you ever considered that perhaps if the two Italians teams of the Rabo invested the money that they paid to get into the Pro12 into the Italian Premiership then perhaps, just a theory, that it would result in a stronger Championship and thusly international team?
     
  8. Scan

    Scan Academy Player

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    Sorry, I no the Bucuresti Wolves are in it but that's just a Romanian SuperLiga select squad. No actual Romanian clubs compete in the Amlin. The Iberian league idea is a good one and could happen in the next couple of years. The Superiberica de Rugby is a club (I think they're franchises actually) competition in Spain that is higher up than the national club league. There is talk apparently that some Portuguese sides could join in the next few years.
     
  9. fede_front_row

    fede_front_row Academy Player

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    they didn't do it in the recent past, and i don't think they will do it! don't ask me the reasons, cause i cannot answer you, anymore!
     
  10. powerfulduck

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    maybe a select Italian XV would be the way forward, with a select Russian, Georgian & Portugal XV taking their place. I also think rather than a Spanish champions they should Shift to a select XV in the short term. Hopefully one day in the future The national champions will be in the Heiniken Cup and these select sides will be a thing of the past but in order to grow the game in Europe the more countries that take part the better.
     
  11. psychic duck

    psychic duck International

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    The Italian championship is very weak now, and performances and crowds in the Amlin Challenge Cup have proved that, they should join a league with Portugal and Spain

    as the money from the FIR would have been spread between 10 teams, you would have had a few teams slightly better than they are now but no teams capable of beating Biarritz

    not a fan of select XV's, just put the champions in

    the only time I've seen a select XV work is the Pampas XV which is a team made up of Argentine based players, but other select XV's, such as Welwitschias from Namibia always play crap Bucharest have underachieved as well
     
  12. powerfulduck

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    i'm not a fan specifically of select XV's the only reason i think they could work in the short term is it benefits more than one team (in theory) per league. The thing that worries me if only the Champions are allowed in form the "lesser" leagues is it could lead to one team dominance in those respective leagues, which if you look at football isn't good for the game. If you took a cross section from the teams in a particular league as a select XV does it's something the whole countries fans can get behind and the valueable experience obtained is spread out amongst several teams, therefore raising the profile & competitiveness of the sport on a national level. Well at least that's the my thought process on the matter and it's fair to say i've used a heafty dose of optimism
     
  13. white bear

    white bear Academy Player

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    I think that Russia-Georgia-Romania league is umpossible. This more distanse, visas for little club, very differente salarys.
    If wedoso, then suchclubs as Imperia, Novokuznetsk, Spartak, Slava..die, aswill not be ableto find money for international travel. Survive 3-4 Russianclub.
    We have noway out,only to builda strong professionalleague, to increase the numberof clubs,invitingstrongforeign players.Toclubs2 and 3tierplayed againstthe VVA,the Yenisei and the Krasny Yar.A 3 topclubs, of course, you needinternational games toalsogrow.Butwithout reform of theAmlin-it's impossible.November-December,even in Moscowcan notplay rugby.It is necessaryto delay.




    My answer about Kingsley Jones ides with 2 Rus franshise:
    http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?25942-Russian-rugby/page3
    Rumor has it that soon VVA (where to build a new stadium, around December 2012).
    Kingsley Jones wants to have two franchises, "Moscow" (players from the VVA, Slava, Spartak...) and "Siberia"(Enisei andKrasny Yar). He is now in contact with the IRB on this issue. But he has anenemy - the Russian winter. If Moscow is some how tolerated -10, but in Siberia (December, January) will freeze not only the French, British,and Russian rugby players.
    Factor 2 - is the distance from Moscow to Krasnoyarsk, 4500 km.
    Three factor - the union of the Enisei and the Krasny Jar - is nonsense. It is impossible to unite them.

    What did the Enisei and the Krasny Yar? If you play in European competition is impossible. Krasny Yar has a contract with the New Zealanders, and the Enisei has recently signed an agreement with the Japanese (Panasonic Wild Knights).
    It may be worth thinking about real participation of the Yenisei and the Red Jar in the Japanese League? Top-14 runs in a circle (13 rounds) from September to December + playoffs. Russian Championship runs from May to September (maxsimum 22 games)
    If you dream of what to look for the season, the Siberian clubs:
    January (holiday)
    February - April (preparation for the club season and the Russian national team matches)
    May - September (participation in the Russian Super League)
    September - December (part in the Japanese Top League, but without the right to participate in playoffs)
    Climate. If the Japanese would agree, the top-14 should be expanded to 16 clubs (hence the Yenisei and the Red Jar hold 15 games). The first 8 rounds (7 times with the Japanese clubs and a derby) Yenisei and Krasny Yar play at home (September-October), and then go to Japan for two months (November-December) and 7 R with the Japanese.
    You need to rent a training field, two hotels and stadiums in Japan. Alternatively, find a place in regions where there are not clubs in the top 14.
    But you need to this fantastic idea increase budgets by 1.5 times and refuse to participate in the Russian Championship Rugby-7 (or trains youth to participate.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2012
  14. powerfulduck

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    out of interest what sort of transport links does siberia have with say canada?, surely these countries have sporting links already given the ice hockey etc. maybe a domestic split between east and west with the eastern teams some way involved in the Canadian championship or a sort of artic circle super rugby format. do you think that could work?
     
  15. Mihnea Cristian Ionescu

    Mihnea Cristian Ionescu Academy Player

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    well m8 , no offence but there were times when we were beating Scotland and France . With all respect for Georgia , their rising in rugby as a force begun in ine past 8-9 years .
     
  16. Croket66

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    2 top clubs from russian championship could be very good!
    with the championship extension to 10 clubs, the league is more attractive, i'm sure the ProD2-level trio (VVA, Krasny Yar and Enisey) would be join by Kazan (1st season in Super League this year, they have recruits by the moment 3 russians internationals and they have a 1.5M€ budget) and by Krasnodar (actually in second division, since the fusion with the FC Kuban Krasnodar, they have recruits Ostrouchko from Enisey (20 caps, 2 tries at the World Cup), Kobzev from VVA (17 caps) and Cotruta from VVA (24 caps with Moldova, 24 tries) they will surely in Super League next year).

    A romanian club to replace the Oaks will be good to see the real level of the romanian championship.
    I've read Timisoara will be the next big romanian club, they have recruits some samoans/NZ players and some internationals from romanian clubs like Fercu, Carpo, Burcea or Calafeteanu)

    A georgian club too; with the Armia Tbilissi. They actually poach all best players from others georgian teams, and buy georgian capped players from France and Romania (Samkharadze, Tavarktilavze, Udessiani, Jimsheladze...)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  17. dragos03

    dragos03 First XV

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    I think the IRB should work on creating some kind of league that would put together the best teams of the lesser championships. That could include Italian, Romanian, Georgian, Spanish and Portuguese teams, let's say 12 teams in total. The winner of this league would go into the Heineken Cup and 6 other teams in the Amlin. I don't think the Russians could be involved though, due to distances and weather.

    Also, why is this trend on rugby forums to overestimate the strength of Russian rugby? They did improve strongly a few years ago but now they seem to be on decline. For example, yesterday Russia lost 0-25 at home with Romania in the ENC. And no local television broadcasted the game, which was played on a empty stadium. This shows quite a lack of interest in the sport. By contrast, Georgia for example gets full stadiums at similar events.
     
  18. white bear

    white bear Academy Player

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    This is not test games, Enisey training to the season(now is bad conditions), who start 10 may in Russia and they play without 6 international players. First game won Enisey 15-5, second Armia 10-7.
     
  19. white bear

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    Canada is very far away, and Japan 4500 km from Krasnoyarsk, the same as far as Moscow.
     
  20. Croket66

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    I'm a big fan of Georgian rugby, I like Romanian rugby too but i don't think the Russian SuperLeague is overestimate.
    Sorry, yes the championship is overestimate, but not the big 3.
    Firstly, yes, Russia national team is very bad this year but new coach, news players.
    If you take the RWC squad, only Byrnes, Ostrikov, Gratchev,Rachkov were'nt in Russia (since the RWC, Artemyev moved to Northampton; Gresev and Korshunov to Wasps; Gratchev is back to Russia). Maybe 50% of the Romanian squad played in France; about 90% for Georgia.

    Secondly, in Russia plays some very good foreign players. Ryan Bambry former Highlanders fly-half for example. 2 others players with Super Rugby experience will join the championship : scrum half Toby Morland (Highlanders, Chiefs, Munster and Blues) and fullback Glenn Horton (ex-Highlandes). Some new-zealand players with ITM Cup experience (Dodd, Gregory...) plays in Russia too. And don't forget one half of the Moldova national team and one half of Kazakhstan national team plays in Russia too. Some internationals from Georgia (Urushadze), Ukraine (Golishev, Orlov) and from others countries too.

    I have'nt saw any foreign players in the Georgian championship, and only 10-20% of the national team plays in Georgia
    In Romania, only Timisoara have some Samoa/NZ players, but they were'nt pro, they played in amateur clubs from NZ, and only one half of the national team plays in Romania.
    The Russian big 3 (VVA Podmoskovye, Krasny Yar, Enisey-STM), it's about 70% of the Russia national team, and all NZ players who are in Russia plays for Krasny Yar or Enisey.
    Last year, VVA-Podmoskovye won ahead Grenoble (actual leader in French ProD2) and Enisey won easily against italians teams L'Aquila and Lazio from first division.
    In fact, i think romanian championship, russian championship and georgian championship are the same level, but the russian big 3, it's a higher division

    PS : sorry, i know my english is not good, i hope you understand what i write :D
     
  21. Toko_11

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    I also think Russian, Romanian and Georgian leagues are roughly the same level... we would not need to have this discussion if IRB get their heads off the ground and actually do something. how hard is it to make an international qualification involving teams from these three countries.. i don't think anyone would be against it so what is the problem ?
     
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