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Crocodile rolls will be banned...

smartcooky

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Surely under that interpretation cookie, the only way to clear a ruck is by driving forward and up. I don't believe it is collapsing the ruck as it only removes one player, out of the ruck. By the time the clearer is off his feet, both players by necessity are no longer in the ruck (so it hasn't prevented a contest for the ball). How is this diferent from blowing over? I also don't see how its any more dangerous. When done properly, the player attempting the role end up on the borron of the other. The many times I do it, I'm more likely to get a sneaky elbow to the head than injure the other guy.

Illegalities is not the only problem I have with this technique Nick, its safety at lower levels too. Juniors should not be taught this technique because, unlike adult rugby, there can be much wider disparities between the physical strengths of player. This technique, done incorrectly by a very strong lad, could break the neck of a not so strong opponent. Yet, I have seen schoolboys doing this, and very poorly.

Another problem I have with it is that we can end up with the confusing (and IMO ridiculous) situation, where all the players involved in the ruck from both sides are on the ground, and yet its still a ruck, because the criteria for ending a ruck have not been met.

[TEXTAREA]16.6 SUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the
goal line.
16.7 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK
(a) A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable and a scrum is ordered.[/TEXTAREA]

Remember the first penalty awarded by Wayne Barnes against McCaw in the match vs Wales? Wales kicked 3 points from it to open the scoring)

There was a ruck, players were saddle rolled away and there were no longer any ruck players on their feet. The ball was on the ground between players from both sides, more on Wales' side of the ruck than the All Black's, but certainly not at the back and available and Wales' scrumhalf Rhys Webb was not present. Welsh lock Jake Ball and McCaw both went for the ball, McCaw was slightly quicker and got his hands on the ball first and was then got pinged for hands in the ruck.

Now I can understand Wayne Barnes' thinking here. McCaw was pinged because in Barnes' mind, it was still a ruck and he was the second man in, but I have to ask a couple of questions.

1. As I see it, Jake Ball didn't have any more right in Law to pick up the ball than McCaw, so if Ball had got his hands on it first, would/could/should he have been pinged?. If not, why not?

2. If the ball had been in exactly the same place but covered by players off their feet, would either Rhys Webb or Aaron Smith have been allowed to dig for it? If so, why not Jake Ball and McCaw?

3. Since the Lawmakers have effectively killed rucking with feet (despite not having the courage to actually outlaw it), then raking the ball out with the feet is too risky. What are players supposed to do in situation like this, stand around and gawk at the ball but don't touch it?

4. On another day, with another referee, McCaw's actions might have been allowed (see England v NZ @ Twickenham two weeks ago, Nigel Owens referee).

For mine, this situation (when there are no ruckers on their feet and the ball is in plain view) is brought about by the advent of the saddle roll, and allowing players to roll opponents off their feet. If ruckers were made to stay on their feet and drive their opponents backwards to win the ball, it would force more players to commit to the ruck in order to win the ball, and that leaves less small numbers clogging up the back-line. The only way the ball then gets exposed is when one team drives over the top of it, and the ball comes out the back, satisfying Law 16.6 and making for a better game to boot.

The saddle roll has actually slowed the recycling of ball; go have a look at some Super 12 matches from the late 1990s, to mid 2000's; no-one ever head of the saddle roll back then and ball was won at the ruck just as I have described here, numbers committed to the ruck to drive opponents backs, and recycled quickly to waiting back-lines.
 
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donmcdazzle

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^ You also had rucking in the late 90's which had a big part to play in fast ball. Hands, arms, legs, anything on the ball could be moved pretty quickly with rucking. Cooky why was rucking deemed illegal all of a sudden? I don't remember any bad injuries from it? You'd get the odd bit of stomping resulting in yellow cards but I never remember it being that bad?
 

goodNumber10

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He has every need!

JDV has his hands on the ball as far as he's concerned.

I absolutely don't agree, a standard lift and drive would have been as, if not, more effective.

I think JDV is in a strong position and has done well to get on the ball, Wales are arriving in Numbers and for me that would have cleard him out anyway.


Can we not turn this into a mud slinging contest about TF here now. No blame should be attached to him, a serious unfortunate accident.

We're discussing a technique specific to this incident it's wholley appropriate to discuss the method employed by TF.

No one is saying TF did it intentionally, or insulting him, but you can't gloss over the fact his technqiue is directly involved here - even as a can opener it's poorly executed his upper body weight is on top of JDV,because he's too far up the body and close to the centre of gravity to provide and effective roll which is why he rolls him backwards - it's simple physics.
 
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TRF_heineken

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My issue with this is, that because of ambiguities in the laws, the players, coaches and management look at ways to go around the laws. This crocodile roll, which is a wrestling/judo move, is new to rugby. I know the Springboks actually went for Judo and Wrestling classes in 2012, to learn techniques like this. Francois Louw, who used to wrestle when he was younger said, it's the easiest and best way to clear out players at the rucks, because in wrestling you try to take your opponent to the ground.

But here I agree with Cooky, the person doing the saddle roll, is also going off their feet when doing this action, so he's basically taking himself out in the process too. At ruck time he could and should be blown for going off his feet.

If it's banned, they will just find another way around it. The policing at the rucks are the bigger issue here. And during this EOYT it was clear that the refs are being way too lenient in this area. Maybe there are too many laws to consider at this phase of play, which prevents the ref from making a clear cut decision in split seconds, or maybe his positioning is not correct that he might not see everything going on.
 

goodNumber10

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Illegalities is not the only problem I have with this technique Nick, its safety at lower levels too. Juniors should not be taught this technique because, unlike adult rugby, there can be much wider disparities between the physical strengths of player. This technique, done incorrectly by a very strong lad, could break the neck of a not so strong opponent. Yet, I have seen schoolboys doing this, and very poorly.

I agree with this 100%, in france there is a real divide between what is allowed at Elite and amatuer level, people complain but a lot of it is sensible.

No placing the ball between your legs, no tackling on or above the sternum, no flopping rucks, no collapsing the jumper at a lineout - it has an effect sure, but it's about saftey.
 

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I agree with this 100%, in france there is a real divide between what is allowed at Elite and amatuer level, people complain but a lot of it is sensible.

No placing the ball between your legs, no tackling on or above the sternum, no flopping rucks, no collapsing the jumper at a lineout - it has an effect sure, but it's about saftey.

Not just in France...

In SA kids younger than 14 years are not allowed to play boots. they have to play barefoot.

But the thing is, this saddle roll is being done by rugby players, they had a few classes with a wrestler or judo sensei. The rugby players aren't pro's at doing this action, and this is where the injuries will happen.
 

Groundhog

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The other technique you can use to clear out a guy jackeled over the ball is just pull him forward onto your side and out of the ruck. At the very least he'll have to use his hands to steady himself at which stage he cant compete. He's bracing so hard for a hit to knock him backwards that it really takes no strength at all. Don't know if there's rules against it but I've never been blown. Not dangerous at all either.
 

goodNumber10

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Not just in France...

In SA kids younger than 14 years are not allowed to play boots. they have to play barefoot.

Hehehe! that'd work int he south of france but the north in February? not a chance :)

But the thing is, this saddle roll is being done by rugby players, they had a few classes with a wrestler or judo sensei. The rugby players aren't pro's at doing this action, and this is where the injuries will happen.

I agree, i think it's a very difficult motion to do well, and this kind of injury was just waiting to happen.
 

smartcooky

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^ You also had rucking in the late 90's which had a big part to play in fast ball. Hands, arms, legs, anything on the ball could be moved pretty quickly with rucking. Cooky why was rucking deemed illegal all of a sudden? I don't remember any bad injuries from it? You'd get the odd bit of stomping resulting in yellow cards but I never remember it being that bad?

It has never been deemed illegal...

[TEXTAREA]LAW 16 DEFINITIONS
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on
their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has
ended.
Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or
keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.
[/TEXTAREA]

...but what they have done is to make it difficult to win the ball with feet. You basically cannot touch a player with your feet, if you do, PING!

I think the reason was that players "mountaineering" on opponents on the bottom of the ruck and "tagging" them as they did so was not considered a good look for the game, especially when they are trying to convince mums to let little Johnny play the game.

Also, it was wasn't "all of a sudden" it was a gradual change to what we have today... a complete and utter shamozzle of confusion with players being encouraged to take opponents off their feet, instead of what they should be doing...

1. Get the tacklers and tackled player out of it.

2. Encourage players to stay on their feet

3. Reward teams that win the ball with their feet, or by driving opponents off it

4. Punish teams that collapse the ruck, pull players off their feet and illegally block the ball from coming back.
 

Mikel92

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Yeah, totally agree with Cooky. The big wigs don't want you to use the old rucking with the boot because it's just not a good look. We're trying to sell this sport globally, and to an outsider it's just a grubby look. Might not be to us .. but we're already playing/watching it, so what we think doesn't matter.

Americans already think it's a hyper-aggresive code. While we want to maintain some hard knocks, we just have to be mindful of who's watching, and what cultures we want to get on board.
 

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If it's banned, they will just find another way around it. The policing at the rucks are the bigger issue here. And during this EOYT it was clear that the refs are being way too lenient in this area. Maybe there are too many laws to consider at this phase of play, which prevents the ref from making a clear cut decision in split seconds, or maybe his positioning is not correct that he might not see everything going on.

There are too many laws. You could probably call an infringement every two or three rucks, assuming your eyes were quick enough to spot them all, and there's plenty in which its six of one and half a dozen of another. An attempt to go hardline would kill attacking rugby because, even once all players are educated and honestly striving to keep the rules at all times, it's simply too easy to infringe accidentally, or need to infringe to keep the play alive, or for the ref to make a mistake. It becomes too risky to keep ball in hand.

There are also probably a good half a dozen other laws routinely being abused in other facets of the game and, honestly, trying to apply them all properly would be chaos. Rugby isn't truly reffable, really.

And I don't have a good answer for fixing that.

p.s. there's a lot of talk about this being really dangerous, but this is the first time I've seen the action produce a serious injury, and non life-threatening to boot. Has anyone seen it produce other serious or life threatening injuries?
 

ratsapprentice

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Pocock did something similar a couple of years ago I think - clearly nowhere near as bad... this is the worst I've seen.
 

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Groundhog

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:girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance::girl_dance:
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goodNumber10

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p.s. there's a lot of talk about this being really dangerous, but this is the first time I've seen the action produce a serious injury, and non life-threatening to boot. Has anyone seen it produce other serious or life threatening injuries?

it's a pretty new technique to be fair, only been in use two three years, so it's not really filtered down, i think the more prevalent it becomes at the lower levels the more injuries we'll see.

Interestingly just got back from training and i and one of the other coaches, who has been coaching this to some of our lads, started to discuss with one of the players. We all kind of agreed to not coach it - he's a PE teacher, has played an incredibly high standard and he said he'd never even thought about the danger until he saw that and now he's not prepared to teach guys at this level it.
 

TRF_Peat

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it's a pretty new technique to be fair, only been in use two three years, so it's not really filtered down, i think the more prevalent it becomes at the lower levels the more injuries we'll see.

Interestingly just got back from training and i and one of the other coaches, who has been coaching this to some of our lads, started to discuss with one of the players. We all kind of agreed to not coach it - he's a PE teacher, has played an incredibly high standard and he said he'd never even thought about the danger until he saw that and now he's not prepared to teach guys at this level it.

Really? It's been in use at my club for a good two years and I'm playing pretty low level stuff. Not much formal coaching of it, but plenty of players picking it from somewhere.
 

goodNumber10

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Really? It's been in use at my club for a good two years and I'm playing pretty low level stuff. Not much formal coaching of it, but plenty of players picking it from somewhere.

yeah, from watching it on TV, and that's the danger imho.

anyway, just seen this:

[video=youtube_share;_2iMHprgNbU]http://youtu.be/_2iMHprgNbU[/video]
 

TRF_Peat

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You see, I don't think it's that dangerous, no more so that the majority of actions encouraged in rugby. So I don't have a problem with that.
 

The_Blindside

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Bump after Willis’s horrific injury yesterday.
 

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Croc rolls should be banned. Has likely cost a year off of Willis’ career. Did cost more than a year off of Ellis Jenkins and Dan Leary’s career. So avoidable.
 

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