Dream team

Peat · Dec 4, 2011

lucky number 7 said:
Strong call..

Slattery vs Jones isn't a strong call.

Small Paul for Ireland, that's a strong call... although worryingly enough I'm beginning to come round to that thinking.

Leonormous Boozer · Dec 4, 2011

Peat said:
Slattery vs Jones isn't a strong call.

Small Paul for Ireland, that's a strong call... although worryingly enough I'm beginning to come round to that thinking.

He's the best performing Irish SH at the moment if Gatland was Ireland coach he'd be in the team but with Kidney he won't be in the extended squad.

Aedaphon · Dec 4, 2011

formerlyfastwing · Dec 5, 2011

Tallshort said:
Of all time.......

1.Tom Smith
2.Keith Wood
3.Jeff Probyn
4.Wade Dooly
5.Ian Jones
6.Richard Hill
7.Michael Jones, far and away....how amny other players have set their own schedules for the All Blacks?
8.Dean Richards
9.JVH
10.Barry John
11.Shane Williams
12.Tim Horan, There is no other.
13.BOD
14.Tony Underwood
15.JPR Williams

More north than south but F%$Â£ it

fixed it.....could have changed a number of them actually, but Jones is a glaring ommision

nickdnz · Dec 5, 2011

All time? I only pick players from the professional era as it's much easier to compare. My dream 22.

1. Os du Randt - Two World Cup wins in 1995 and 2007. Very good scrummager. Made an awsome come back.
2. Sean Fitzpatrick - World Cup winner in 1987, very good All Black captain
3. Carl Hayman - Best TH prop I've ever seen. Rated as the best in the world for fiveor six years.
4. Victor Matfield - World Cup winner in 2007. Good leader and best lineout opperator of the modern game.
5. John Eales - Two World wins in 1991 and 1999, captained Wallabies to the latter, good goal kicker, good in the line outs and very mobile.
6. Michael Jones - World Cup winner in 1987. One of the best 7 of all time, but certainly was very good at 6, even after he slowed down.
7. Richie McCaw - World Cup winner in 2011, best openside of the modern game for over a decade now and one of the greatest captains.
8. Zinzan Brooke - World Cup winner in 1987. Probably the most skillful loose forward in history.
9. George Gregan - World Cup winner in 1999. Most capped player ever. Most annoying player ever.
10. Daniel Carter - World Cup winner in 2011. Highest points scorer of all time, most tries for a 1st 5/8th, averages most points per game. No fly half in history has tore opposition to shreads like DC.
11. Jonah Lomu - Arugably the biggest freak in rugby history. On form probably the most dangerous outside back of all time.
12. Tana Umaga - Great captain and great player. Never seems to get the credit he deserves outside New Zealand. Great passing game, great line breaking, great rucker, ferocious tackler and great captain. Shame he seems to be remembered for one incident in 2005.
13. Brian O'Driscoll - Highest try scorer for Ireland, may become most capped player of all time. Good captain.
14. Joe Rokocoko - In his prime he was amazing. 17 tries in one season (joint record with Daisuke Ohata). One of the exciting backs in history. Shame his form went in recent years. It was a close pick between Rokocoko, Doug Howlett, Jeff Wilson. I preferred Rokocoko on the left wing, but in his prime, I couldn't leave him out.
15. Christian Cullen - Out of every outside back, Cullen is my favourite. Scored tries no one else in history could have hoped to score. 46 tries in 58 tests, he still hold the record for most tries in the Tri Nations (followed by Joe Rokocoko, Doug Howlett and Richie McCaw).

16. Keith Wood - Was a great captain and probably Ireland's best ever forward.
17. Jason Leonard - World Cup winner in 2003, most caps for a forward. Very good prop who could play both sides of the scrum if needed.
18. Martin Johnson - World Cup winner in 2003 which he was the captain. Best grunt man in the modern era.
19. Jerry Collins - Greatest enforcer in the modern game. Most devistating tackler and good in the rucks. Richard Hill is another good candidate as is Jerome Kaino from his current form.
20. Matt Dawson - World Cup winner in 2003, made Johnny Willkinson a star with great service. It was close between him and Augustin Pichot,
Byron Kelleher, Justin Marshall and Fourie du Preez.
21. Andrew Mehrtens - Averages the second most points per game behind Dan Carter. Very good goal kicker, great vision, great pass and an underutilized running game. In my opinions easily the second best 1st 5/8th in All Black history and of the modern era (yes I thinks he's better than Wilkinson, Spencer and Larkham).
22. Jason Robinson - World Cup winner in 2003. The greatest outside back to come from the Northern Hemisphere since Serge Blanco. Legendary step and change of pace and could play in the centres, wing and fullback.

SelimNiai · Dec 5, 2011

Most of that I'd go with. I think Jason Little would compete with Tana for the 12 shirt and im not saying that cos of 05. Not 100% about Rockoko either but can't really think of anyone else at this moment.

Edit: Just wondering, was Little in the pro era? I'm not 100% sure now I think of it. If not then ignore that bit

nickdnz · Dec 5, 2011

SelimNiai said:
Most of that I'd go with. I think Jason Little would compete with Tana for the 12 shirt and im not saying that cos of 05. Not 100% about Rockoko either but can't really think of anyone else at this moment.

Edit: Just wondering, was Little in the pro era? I'm not 100% sure now I think of it. If not then ignore that bit

Well, he was but he didn't really play inside centre. Tim Horan was always the star inside centre (who many rate above Umaga). I personally think Umaga was just amazing, but there are obviously different opinions (I sadly wouldn't have any Welsh players in my 22, yet many Welshmen wouldn't have any non-Welsh players in their 22).

Joe Rokocoko is a fair call. Here's my reasoning (it's a tad sketchy) I don't think Caucaunibuca ever really earned a spot despite what an exciting talent he seemed to be. Rory Underwood was another possibility (just slipping into the professional era by a year) but while he scored 50 tries, he did it in 91 tests (average of 0.55 tries per game) which is still very good, but I still was never really amazed by him. Howlett and Wilson were two of my other choices, Howlett being consistantly very good over his career with 49 tries in 62 games (0.79 tries per game) but I always felt he was more of a great finisher but lacked much of the creativity and spark that Rokocoko has. Jeff Wilson was a very good player and probably more deserving of a spot as he was mainly a right wing, he also put many players into space and was pretty much the glue that held Cullen and Lomu together (untill Umaga). Shane Williams was another option I considered. Certainly deserved a spot in terms of longevity of performing well but didn't have quite the same strike rate as some of the other players.

Try scoring rate:
Joe Rokocoko: 0.68
Rory Underwood: 0.55
Jeff Wilson: 0.73
Shane Williams: 0.66
Doug Howlett: 0.79

If you look at it that way, over the space of their careers Doug Howlett or Jeff Wilson had the best overall try scoring rate, which is I guess what you look for in a winger, but on top form I still think Joe Rokocoko from 2003-2007 was the most prolific scorer. His rate has gone down dramatically in recent years, but in his prime I wouldn't pick a different player. Still, certainly won't be everyones pick.

formerlyfastwing · Dec 5, 2011

TRF_nickdnz said:
Well, he was but he didn't really play inside centre. Tim Horan was always the star inside centre (who many rate above Umaga). I personally think Umaga was just amazing,

No one can touch Tim Horan, had there been the professional set up, training etc, he would have been even more dominate, he and Cullen are the top of my man crush list.

formerlyfastwing · Dec 5, 2011

TRF_nickdnz said:
All time

17. Jason Leonard - World Cup winner in 2003, most caps for a forward. Very good prop who could play both sides of the scrum if needed.

He deserves a spot for the nickname of Fun Bus alone......Jason is a gentleman, he played for my club in Alberta, and this was at the height of his playing time. He stopped off on the way back from NZ after the Lions tour. In fact he paid his own way over to our 50th aniversary and was the keynote speaker, and hell he can still play, lit up my buddy in a friendly game that weekend.

Great, GREAT man.

I agreed completely with your Micheal Jones comments, without him there is no Richie, no Bam Bam, no modern openside......

big ginger 8 · Dec 5, 2011

Jones was a brilliant 7 but not the first proper openside they've been there for decades. e.g. Slattery and there's many more.

formerlyfastwing · Dec 5, 2011

big ginger 8 said:
Jones was a brilliant 7 but not the first proper openside they've been there for decades. e.g. Slattery and there's many more.

perhaps i should have been more specific.....he perfected it, IMO

dullonien · Dec 6, 2011

TRF_nickdnz said:
Shane Williams was another option I considered. Certainly deserved a spot in terms of longevity of performing well but didn't have quite the same strike rate as some of the other players.

Try scoring rate:
Joe Rokocoko: 0.68
Rory Underwood: 0.55
Jeff Wilson: 0.73
Shane Williams: 0.66
Doug Howlett: 0.79

You're probably right overall, but I wanted to add a little something regarding Shane's strike rate. It's up there with the best, but I'd also like to know how many more tries he directly created. Off the top of my head, without any research I wouldn't be surprised if he set-up almost as many as he scored (if not more), for a wing that's quite increadible. I can remember countless times when he'd recive the ball at 1st reciever and greate a gap for someone simply by fixing defenders, or by creating an overlap himself to put in the winger or fullback. Parkers try v the All Blacks in 2003 is an example, or Stephen Jones' against England in the next match. I would honestly love to know a rough number for his overall try-assists.

I'd probably have him in or around an all time 15, but then I'm biased. I struggle to think of many other professional wingers who have been as consistently good throughout their careers, because as you say Rokocoko's form has dipped considerably, as has the likes of Habana. Howlett is the other who was consistently excellent throughout his international career. Caucau simply wasn't around for long enough, despite his enormous talent. Wilson is another I can't really criticise. Shane's had plenty of poor games, I haven't forgotten that, but usually not long runs of poor games. And even in his poor games, he manages one or two moments of magic. Lomu is a certainly on the other wing btw.

As I said, biased.

UilamOsa · Dec 6, 2011

Ah see now we're crossing the line between "Dreamteam" and "All time Greatest Team"

For me Caucau makes my dreamteam on the sheer possibilities of what he could do with the pack and backs I chose, it's also why I went for Contepomi over Wilkinson. That said as far as all time greats for me

At 13 it's BOD over Umaga

Though Tana is probably the greatest NZ center i've seen in my lifetime. As a midfield back Horan over everyone and by some margin.

Manuel_Williams · Dec 6, 2011

I'd have to go with Shane Williams too, one of my favs.

DuncTheDoodle · Dec 6, 2011

dullonien said:
You're probably right overall, but I wanted to add a little something regarding Shane's strike rate. It's up there with the best, but I'd also like to know how many more tries he directly created. Off the top of my head, without any research I wouldn't be surprised if he set-up almost as many as he scored (if not more), for a wing that's quite increadible. I can remember countless times when he'd recive the ball at 1st reciever and greate a gap for someone simply by fixing defenders, or by creating an overlap himself to put in the winger or fullback. Parkers try v the All Blacks in 2003 is an example, or Stephen Jones' against England in the next match. I would honestly love to know a rough number for his overall try-assists.

I'd probably have him in or around an all time 15, but then I'm biased. I struggle to think of many other professional wingers who have been as consistently good throughout their careers, because as you say Rokocoko's form has dipped considerably, as has the likes of Habana. Howlett is the other who was consistently excellent throughout his international career. Caucau simply wasn't around for long enough, despite his enormous talent. Wilson is another I can't really criticise. Shane's had plenty of poor games, I haven't forgotten that, but usually not long runs of poor games. And even in his poor games, he manages one or two moments of magic. Lomu is a certainly on the other wing btw.

As I said, biased.

I read somewhere that, on top of the 60 international tries Shane scored, he was also involved in 99. Which is absolutely incredible, if true.

Peat · Dec 8, 2011

The other thing about wingers' strike rates is it depends a lot on who's playing inside them. Considering some of the absolute crap Wales have served up, for Williams to reach where he did is astonishing. While I suspect that you could stick my grannies on the wings for New Zealand and one of them would probably get a try, and they're both dead.

I don't want to take away too much from the All Black wingers named, as they were fantastic players who saw off some very good players and would have got tries for anyone. But the interesting hypothetical is how many tries would Shane have scored for NZ, and how many would say Howlett have scored for Wales? We will of course never known and any argument would be very subjective, but its why I don't like relying on stats alone.

What I can say though is neither Underwood really deserves to be in nick's list!

Morrisonsfweb · Dec 12, 2011

[TABLE="width: 399"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 399"]My Dream team is;
Luke Charteris, immense workrate.
Alun Wyn Jones/Andries Bekker, both good athletic locks.
Juan Smith, a great leader and dominant force around the field.
Tavis Knoyle (God knows why. I just love him)
Quade Cooper (An entertainer so great I regularly get up early to watch him) / Stephen Jones (Love you, Stephen. I've said it almost every single game he's ever played. I can't leave him out now.)
Shane
Andrew BISH, BISH, BISH THE FISH! (Once shouted it very loudly in a gruff voice when he made a break in the EDF Semi a few years ago. Everybody in the block stared at me. I wanted to put him with Marcelo Bosh at 13, just for the Bish/Bosh combination)[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Online High School Diploma

irelandfan123 · Dec 17, 2011

1. Stephen Ferris
2. Rory Best (line outs improved despite the abuse he got beore the world cup his breakdown as improved and is now a world class hooker)
3. Stephen Ferris
4. Sean O'Brien(he is sorta tallish I'm sticking to the run through even one theme)
5. Stephen Ferris
6.Stephen Ferris
7. Jamie Heaslip (Lineout jumping , lost his pace looks more to be a seven now , I said this a while ago any people were like "he is an 8 -_-" now loads of people seem to agree its crazy)
8.Stephen Ferris
9.Brian O'Driscoll
10. Stephen Ferris (due to his recent improvement with passing was gunna pick O'Brien cause he has a better boot but after he killed a try against bath it would just be madness )
11. Stephen Ferris
12. Stephen Ferris
13. Brain O'Driscoll
14. Stephen Ferris
15. Stephen Ferris (good under high ball and will always make the yards)

Teh Mite · Dec 17, 2011

irelandfan123 said:
1. Stephen Ferris
2. Rory Best (line outs improved despite the abuse he got beore the world cup his breakdown as improved and is now a world class hooker)
3. Stephen Ferris
4. Sean O'Brien(he is sorta tallish I'm sticking to the run through even one theme)
5. Stephen Ferris
6.Stephen Ferris
7. Jamie Heaslip (Lineout jumping , lost his pace looks more to be a seven now , I said this a while ago any people were like "he is an 8 -_-" now loads of people seem to agree its crazy)
8.Stephen Ferris
9.Brian O'Driscoll
10. Stephen Ferris (due to his recent improvement with passing was gunna pick O'Brien cause he has a better boot but after he killed a try against bath it would just be madness )
11. Stephen Ferris
12. Stephen Ferris
13. Brain O'Driscoll
14. Stephen Ferris
15. Stephen Ferris (good under high ball and will always make the yards)

I get the impression you're not the biggest of Ferris fans?

irelandfan123 · Dec 18, 2011

I get the impression you're not the biggest of Ferris fans?

He is pretty awesome

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