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England 2023/24

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Itoje isn't going to Captain the side, he hasn't even been named one of those nebulous VCs since he graduated from some ******* Vauxhall model in 2017. That's cool with me, if he wants to concentrate on his game then I'm 100% for it.

Give it to Curry.
Curry's out, unless you mean Ben in which case I whole heartedly agree
 
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Itoje isn't going to Captain the side, he hasn't even been named one of those nebulous VCs since he graduated from some ******* Vauxhall model in 2017. That's cool with me, if he wants to concentrate on his game then I'm 100% for it.

Give it to Curry.

He'd have to be Ryder Cup style non-playing for the 6N though.

RWC VCs were Lawes (gone) and Genge who wasn't a first choice by the tournament end although probably will be going forward. His one previous stab at captaincy didn't go so well….

Ford might be an option, but 10s, especially goal kicking ones, already have a lot on their plates and I'd generally favour a forward. There's no-one jumping out, but Itoje's a senior player who's guaranteed to start and the responsibility might just draw out the very best from him. It might not but we can also say that about Curry and most other possible options.
 
You could make Ludlum captain as it buys you a tournament to have a look at other players as VCs. You also know he's a good leader and performer with all the back row injuries around as well it would help to have him there.

I really don't think Genge should be starting (although struggling with who else to pick) but also don't think he's a leader on the pitch in what we need.

The captain either has to be a a guaranteed starter or a 'club captain' who we know may be on the bench.

I see George and Ford being SB options. I might be 100% wrong on this though 😂
 
Curry's out, unless you mean Ben in which case I whole heartedly agree
I mean he absolutely has to get called up if Earl, Ludlam are out as well, right?
 
Farrell first captained England in 2018 and became first choice captain that year. He was named club captain of Saracens in 2021.

Just give it to someone who is likely to play every game, and is at least decent and not a complete dick. Itoje is a good a shout as anyone right now.
 
I agree with those who say Itoje doesn't want it. Makes no sense that he wouldn't at least be VC.

I actually think captaincy improved Genge as a player while at Leicester. Maybe it could have the same effect with England. If not Ludlum and Ford are probably best for an interim period.
 
Ludlam would be a wrong call in my book.

We don't know if Faz will ever return - my guess is he will but there's no guarantee, or he might decide to return, but can do without the extra pressure and scrutiny that comes with the armband.

The 6N is a golden opportunity to see what a post Farrell team and leadership would look like. I don't blame Ludlam for going to France but he's made his bed and must now lie in it. Making him captain would be a wasted opportunity - it should go to someone with an eye to succession planning.
 
And what's your point?

Different time, different player these days and different team. He's also shown he's not got great rapport with refs at Bristol.

My point is he can do it.

Considering it's under Borthwick rather than Lam it might bring it out differently.

It was only like 18 months ago as well.

Not like Ludlam has won anything as captain
 
Ludlam would be a wrong call in my book.

We don't know if Faz will ever return - my guess is he will but there's no guarantee, or he might decide to return, but can do without the extra pressure and scrutiny that comes with the armband.

The 6N is a golden opportunity to see what a post Farrell team and leadership would look like. I don't blame Ludlam for going to France but he's made his bed and must now lie in it. Making him captain would be a wasted opportunity - it should go to someone with an eye to succession planning.
It would also make a mockery of the whole team.
 
Who would want the England captaincy and the amount of **** that comes with it 🤷‍♂️

Cash? :)

It's a tough job but not an impossible one.
I think the bigger question is why we aren't developing obvious leaders. Get the right person and suitable lieutenants and they'd be fine. Faz obviously has some great qualities in dedication and commitment etc but he was never the right man for the captaincy despite captaining us to one RWC final and a whisker of another.
 
Cash? :)

It's a tough job but not an impossible one.
I think the bigger question is why we aren't developing obvious leaders. Get the right person and suitable lieutenants and they'd be fine. Faz obviously has some great qualities in dedication and commitment etc but he was never the right man for the captaincy despite captaining us to one RWC final and a whisker of another.
He has flaws, like all players, but this idea that he isn't captain material is a weird take. Like how many other Northern hemisphere teams can claim to have a captain as successful?

I suspect if he wasn't from the north or played for Quins, he wouldn't be in the crosshairs of as many people.
 
Cash? :)

It's a tough job but not an impossible one.
I think the bigger question is why we aren't developing obvious leaders. Get the right person and suitable lieutenants and they'd be fine. Faz obviously has some great qualities in dedication and commitment etc but he was never the right man for the captaincy despite captaining us to one RWC final and a whisker of another.
So do we hold to much merit on the role as captain. His record as England captain speaks for itself. We could have billy best mates with all the refs, a captain with the worlds greatest communication skills. Yet they still won't achieve what Farrell has. Being motivators and leading by example are probably bigger factors and I'd say most other options aren't considerably better at that than Farrell. Maybe a captain with slightly better 'people' skills would be better idk I think we just hold to much stock in 'captains'.
 
Sanderson said the SRU/Edinburgh are sniffing around Gus Warr - gotta imagine he's gonna declare for them (and probably leave Sale) if SB blanks him next week
 
So do we hold to much merit on the role as captain. His record as England captain speaks for itself. We could have billy best mates with all the refs, a captain with the worlds greatest communication skills. Yet they still won't achieve what Farrell has. Being motivators and leading by example are probably bigger factors and I'd say most other options aren't considerably better at that than Farrell. Maybe a captain with slightly better 'people' skills would be better idk I think we just hold to much stock in 'captains'.
Yes, the captain can make a massive difference off the field and on it. Setting the tempo and tone, the culture - is he a genuine coach / player bridge or just the coach's man? On the pitch can he hold his temper and think clearly and, yes, can he influence the ref? Can he take on that responsibility without detriment to his personal form? Does he bring out the best in colleagues or inhibit them? Etc etc.

Yes, his RWC record sounds good but in 2019 there was one decent performance v Aus and one excellent one in the semis. Realistically this year not reaching the semis would have been a failure - just a sense of frustration that we couldn't seal the deal against the Boks when well placed to do so.

6N is a different story - in 2020 a points difference ***le followed by 5th, 3rd, 5th and some rugby that stank the place out - take Italy out of the equation and the last 3 champs have given us 3 wins from 12.

Farrell doesn't deserve all the brickbats for when things have gone badly nor all the credit when they've been good. Nonetheless he's been a key part of the leadership team for some time now and it's been a very uneven graph.
 
I'll put one of big Farrell complaints out there as I think its speaks to Captaincy in huge regards.

One amazing drop goal aside during the world cup, when was the last time you saw him do anything when on the back foot to grab the game by the scruff of its next and pull the team out. The way he talks to his team, getting the ref on side, individual moments of brilliance by leading from the front?

For as Squidge put it "one England's best ever players" he has a complete lack of these moments and those are kinds of things you need from a Captain.
 
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