England 2024/25

[BPM]

I dont think we're in a bad position..

LH
Genge - 1
Baxter - 2
Rodd - 3
Haffar, Iyogun - 4: Work in progress. Haffar could really shine in a Tigers pack this season

TH
Stuart -1
Heyes - 2
Fordjour - 3

Others Developing
Fasogabon - I think this is a big season for him, i excpect him to show that hes more than just size
Sela - Still U20 but should get some gametime for Bath i would have thought.

Hooker might be a bit more difficult
George - LCD - 1
Dan - Langdon - 2/3
Tuipolotu ?
Blake ?

Yeah. We're in a good place with the props IMO.

Hooker is our new problem.

Dan might have a central contract but he was arguably the worst player on the Argentina tour and Langdon missed the opportunity to leapfrog him by being pretty poor as well.

I'd add Oghre, Blamire and Jibulu to your list.

Oghre is seemingly next cab off the rank but has similar strengths and weaknesses to Dan.

I feel like I've said this a lot but I really don't understand why Blake's not had more attention given his reliability in set pieces and skillset in the loose.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Oghre is seemingly next cab off the rank but has similar strengths and weaknesses to Dan.

I was a big Oghre hater before but he's improved immeasurably since joining Bristol - stratospheres above T.Dan now, would almost say he's on a level with Langdon. Blamire would need a similar glow up at Tigers before I'd trust him for England again, but he does seem to be on the radar, and Tigers is probably the best place for a forward to go to work on their fundamentals

I think we're in a good position at hooker in terms of numbers, the issue now is lack of international experience. Need to stop capping Dan and get some proper time into Langdon and Oghre

We've got a tough run of Autumn tests (Aus, Fiji, NZ, Argentina) but I'd hope we get at least one start into one of those two, and that one is on the bench for each game (I imagine JG will be first choice)

Hoping there's an England A game too (think the plan is to have one every international series) so we can get some others some time too

 

[Which Tyler]

TH is still an issue for me, I want Heyes to add 10-15kg really and not sure he can with his frame. Can't wait to see Fasogbon in the squad and getting a shot as soon as possible really. Been a while since we had some real size players.

As ever, I'd rather he finished growing his skeleton to match his muscles, rather than having to retire in his 20s as his body's been abused and. broken

 

[higgik]

Yeah it's an interesting one. I actually think Chessum is our premier lock.

But Itoje's going nowhere soon. And the row ideally does need some real heft which is much more Martin than Chessum. TBH I do see Chessum as a genuine hybrid option and I guess the hope is that he can mirror Lawes who ended up as a brilliant 6 and top class line out option…..that's a high benchmark but I think Chessum could do it. There are loads of options but I think that's SB's dream.

Chessum for a bench role, offering replacement for the row or offering a difference in the BR.

 

[higgik]

I was a big Oghre hater before but he's improved immeasurably since joining Bristol - stratospheres above T.Dan now, would almost say he's on a level with Langdon. Blamire would need a similar glow up at Tigers before I'd trust him for England again, but he does seem to be on the radar, and Tigers is probably the best place for a forward to go to work on their fundamentals

I think we're in a good position at hooker in terms of numbers, the issue now is lack of international experience. Need to stop capping Dan and get some proper time into Langdon and Oghre

We've got a tough run of Autumn tests (Aus, Fiji, NZ, Argentina) but I'd hope we get at least one start into one of those two, and that one is on the bench for each game (I imagine JG will be first choice)

Hoping there's an England A game too (think the plan is to have one every international series) so we can get some others some time too

Shame Alfie chose BR instead of staying at Hooker.
Again he could have been a great asset on a bench, meaning you could go 5-3, rather than 6-2.

 

[Ddanno]

Shame Alfie chose BR instead of staying at Hooker.
Again he could have been a great asset on a bench, meaning you could go 5-3, rather than 6-2.

Good player on his day, but he really hasn't shown the intent you need to be an international. Just looking at the timber he's put on since transferring from Wasps and his own admissions about his diet and hatred of training he was never going to make it in any position imo.

 

[higgik]

Good player on his day, but he really hasn't shown the intent you need to be an international. Just looking at the timber he's put on since transferring from Wasps and his own admissions about his diet and hatred of training he was never going to make it in any position imo.

True, but a waste of a talent.

 

[Ddanno]

True, but a waste of a talent.

Definitely, but all on his own shoulders. Fair play to him for going his way, I wouldn't have had the motivation in my teens either (and would have been kicked out on my first pee test anyway)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

True, but a waste of a talent.

Did he ever show talent as a hooker?
Third choice at age grade and never played there at senior level

It's like lamenting Kyle Sinckler's missed opportunity at flyhalf

 

[BPM]

I was a big Oghre hater before but he's improved immeasurably since joining Bristol - stratospheres above T.Dan now, would almost say he's on a level with Langdon. Blamire would need a similar glow up at Tigers before I'd trust him for England again, but he does seem to be on the radar, and Tigers is probably the best place for a forward to go to work on their fundamentals

I think we're in a good position at hooker in terms of numbers, the issue now is lack of international experience. Need to stop capping Dan and get some proper time into Langdon and Oghre

We've got a tough run of Autumn tests (Aus, Fiji, NZ, Argentina) but I'd hope we get at least one start into one of those two, and that one is on the bench for each game (I imagine JG will be first choice)

Hoping there's an England A game too (think the plan is to have one every international series) so we can get some others some time too

I agree on Oghre’s improvement. My only concern would be that he’s a bit small. He punches above his weight at domestic level but I’m not sure he could do that at test level.

Blake and Jibulu are naturally bigger, heavier men who have a good blend of a solid set piece game and good work rate/skills in the loose.

I am interested to see if playing at Tigers can improve Blamire’s lineout throwing. If Playing with a top class jumper like Chessum and being coached by Parling doesn’t help, nothing will.

 

[Ddanno]

I agree on Oghre's improvement. My only concern would be that he's a bit small. He punches above his weight at domestic level but I'm not sure he could do that at test level.

Blake and Jibulu are naturally bigger, heavier men who have a good blend of a solid set piece game and good work rate/skills in the loose.

I am interested to see if playing at Tigers can improve Blamire's lineout throwing. If Playing with a top class jumper like Chessum and being coached by Parling doesn't help, nothing will.

Agree on his size, even Dan is a bit bigger and he's one of the smallest hookers we've fielded in years. And at 26 or 27 (?) you'd think Oghre would have made a bit more of an impact by now.

 

[Geordie]

Yeah. We're in a good place with the props IMO.

Hooker is our new problem.

Dan might have a central contract but he was arguably the worst player on the Argentina tour and Langdon missed the opportunity to leapfrog him by being pretty poor as well.

I'd add Oghre, Blamire and Jibulu to your list.

Oghre is seemingly next cab off the rank but has similar strengths and weaknesses to Dan.

I feel like I've said this a lot but I really don't understand why Blake's not had more attention given his reliability in set pieces and skillset in the loose.

Completely forgot about Jibulu...he's a definite one to watch this season.

I like Blake as well...

 

[Ddanno]

Completely forgot about Jibulu...he's a definite one to watch this season.

Bit gutted he left us, he looks very promising

 

[Reiser99]

I think part of the issue for hooker is there is lots of potential, but not much experience outside of LCD and George. Most of the other positions are fine except for centre in this regards. Lock could possibly use a bit more depth, but that's more a luxury than a necessity. At centre, unless SB takes a huge backward step and picks a midfield of Farrell and Slade, then we seem to at least be developing the right players there.

Hooker however seems to be completely dependent on George and LCD staying fit, which is very questionable at this stage. LCD especially with his tackle technique. SB then nailed his colours to his mast with Dan and that's backfired hugely. He's now made a rod for his own back and honestly I don't see him dropping Dan unless he's willing to admit he made a huge mistake, which I don't see happening.

 

[BPM]

I can see the temptation to stick with George and Cowan-Dickie as a one-two punch, but at this point, it’s essential to find a longer term successor.

Not sure how serious Dan’s injury in Argentina was, but given he left the pitch in tears, it seemed pretty painful. Is he going to be fit for the start of the season.

If not, it probably gives Borthwick an opportunity to bring one of the other options in to the mix. We have two full years or circa 20 caps worth of development between now and the World Cup so it would be good to start using that effectively.

 

[BPM]

Am I correct in thinking Cowan-Dickie was concussed and it isn't a neck injury?

If so, I'd pick him to start the AIs with one of Langdon, Oghre, Blamire, Blake of Jibulu on the bench.

I imagine Blake, Jibulu and Tuipolotu are more likely for the A squad though.

Feels harsh to leave George out entirely given how good he was in the 1st test in Argentina but we have to cut the cord at some point. He’s our best hooker by some distance IMO, but at this point, further caps given to him are preventing a successor from emerging.

 

[Geordie]

Am I correct in thinking Cowan-Dickie was concussed and it isn't a neck injury?

If so, I'd pick him to start the AIs with one of Langdon, Oghre, Blamire, Blake of Jibulu on the bench.

I imagine Blake, Jibulu and Tuipolotu are more likely for the A squad though.

Feels harsh to leave George out entirely given how good he was in the 1st test in Argentina but we have to cut the cord at some point. He's our best hooker by some distance IMO, but at this point, further caps given to him are preventing a successor from emerging.

The problem is George is way ahead of the contenders "at the moment". He wont be dropped until one of the young pretenders are pulling up trees.

This season is going to be huge for many of those type of players...Blake, Jubilu, Tuipolotu, Fasogabon, Haffar, Arthur Clarke, Bamber, Sodike, Atkinson, Ojomoh, etc etc
Positions where maybe we're looking for youngsters to provide depth and for some a potential to make the starting spot their own over the next season.

i would also say this tour has probably put the nail in the coffin of a few - Ted Hill, Kenningham, maybe even Theo Dan....

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Am I correct in thinking Cowan-Dickie was concussed and it isn't a neck injury?

If so, I'd pick him to start the AIs with one of Langdon, Oghre, Blamire, Blake of Jibulu on the bench.

I imagine Blake, Jibulu and Tuipolotu are more likely for the A squad though.

Feels harsh to leave George out entirely given how good he was in the 1st test in Argentina but we have to cut the cord at some point. He's our best hooker by some distance IMO, but at this point, further caps given to him are preventing a successor from emerging.

That’s the thing though. Once one of the youngsters achieves parity with George or LCD they get the nod. But until that point they don’t.

Obviously they won’t have the international experience, so that parity can be gained through weight of Prem, Europe or A performances. The shirt needs to be earned and right now there’s loads of potential but no-one close.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

maybe even Theo Dan....

Wishful thinking, sadly


Excited to see how Jibulu progresses this season (not just because he's at Sale)
Should get plenty of gametime early doors, with LCD on Lions stand down, might even be starting if he has a good pre-season

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Surely even SB will have noticed Dan falls short. I don’t think we know how long central contracts are for?