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England 2024/25

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Geordie said:
The problem is George is way ahead of the contenders "at the moment". He wont be dropped until one of the young pretenders are pulling up trees.

This season is going to be huge for many of those type of players...Blake, Jubilu, Tuipolotu, Fasogabon, Haffar, Arthur Clarke, Bamber, Sodike, Atkinson, Ojomoh, etc etc
Positions where maybe we're looking for youngsters to provide depth and for some a potential to make the starting spot their own over the next season.

i would also say this tour has probably put the nail in the coffin of a few - Ted Hill, Kenningham, maybe even Theo Dan....
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This is true. However, we have circa 20 games to go before the RWC, that's not a lot of time for anyone behind him to build experience. Time waits for no man and it would be a mistake to keep Georgr going at the expense of developing alternatives.

Right now we have George with over 100 caps, LCD with 49 and then a big drop off to Dan with 19 (which in retrospect is very generous) and then Blamire with 7. The others literally have 1 or 2.

Dan is the 3rd choice but really shouldn't be. Langdon has looked the most deserving based upon domestic and European form, but he really didn't look great when given a good opportunity to press his claim.

With another hooker, I think we could have buried Argentina in that second test. Dan's inability to find his man basically negated all the opportunities we had from attacking lineouts and losing possession on one of them even led to one of their tries. It was bad to the point of being unforgivable and a case of chicken's coming home to roost as his darts had never looked good enough but were kind of masked by it not affecting results and him doing OK elsewhere. That stinker of a performance was always a distinct possibility and we just can't afford that level of inaccuracy. IMO, 19 caps is enough of a chance to say he's not quite good enough. That may change over time, but for now, he needs to go back to his club and work on his weaknesses.

The bottom line is that we need to know who is going to step up and persisting with George and LCD only prevents that from happening. 2 years sounds like a long time, but it really isn't for a position as crucial as this. It's a bit like sticking with Youngs and Care forever and then panic picking Heinz.
 
BPM said:
This is true. However, we have circa 20 games to go before the RWC, that's not a lot of time for anyone behind him to build experience. Time waits for no man and it would be a mistake to keep Georgr going at the expense of developing alternatives.

Right now we have George with over 100 caps, LCD with 49 and then a big drop off to Dan with 19 (which in retrospect is very generous) and then Blamire with 7. The others literally have 1 or 2.

Dan is the 3rd choice but really shouldn't be. Langdon has looked the most deserving based upon domestic and European form, but he really didn't look great when given a good opportunity to press his claim.

With another hooker, I think we could have buried Argentina in that second test. Dan's inability to find his man basically negated all the opportunities we had from attacking lineouts and losing possession on one of them even led to one of their tries. It was bad to the point of being unforgivable and a case of chicken's coming home to roost as his darts had never looked good enough but were kind of masked by it not affecting results and him doing OK elsewhere. That stinker of a performance was always a distinct possibility and we just can't afford that level of inaccuracy. IMO, 19 caps is enough of a chance to say he's not quite good enough. That may change over time, but for now, he needs to go back to his club and work on his weaknesses.

The bottom line is that we need to know who is going to step up and persisting with George and LCD only prevents that from happening. 2 years sounds like a long time, but it really isn't for a position as crucial as this. It's a bit like sticking with Youngs and Care forever and then panic picking Heinz.
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Oh im not disagreeing with you at all...i think that needs to be one of the main targets - finding a couple of new hookers.
Im not even sure how long George will continue for.

BUT if George is playing better then he cant be dropped for someone like Theo Dan who is a massive drop off regardless of age. As i said above, the start of this season is gonig to be massive for so many "fringe" and young players looking to really make the step up and challenge. The ball really is in their court and they HAVE to start putting the pressure on with performances that cant be ignored. Blake, Blamire (his lineout work), Jibulu moving to Sale, Tuipolotu coming through etc etc.
Now with that in mind Langdon WAS doing that but failed to catch their attention..so i wonder (like Ted HIll) if theres something in his game that they just dont like.
 
If George was 30 still then sure stick with him but he'll be 36/37 by the WC. If he's still in form and there are no other options then pick him then, but we're not going to learn anymore with him starting. The tour to Argentina was fine, we lacked experience in the squad, but now that the Lions players are back it's not as essential.
LCD is similar, he's 32 and will be 34 by the WC. However, he's had a lot more injuries than George and there's no guarantee he'll still be fit by the WC. I know Borthwick wants to win, but it would be a huge risk to just keep capping these 2 and hope they are both at the same level by the WC. I know some people here say pick your best players regardless, but this is quite possibly the exception to the rule.

He seems to be sticking with Dan, though if Dan is out for a while he has an opportunity to pick someone else. My ideal situation would be that he picks whoever shows the most potential and is in form after the opening rounds and has them on the bench for the AIs with either George or LCD starting and then come the 6Ns he starts them unless they are clearly struggling.
 
After Dan’s shocking performance, Langdon had a brilliant opportunity to show he should have started and he just didn’t take it at all. Dan was honestly so bad that anyone could have looked good in comparison.

As it happened, Langdon looked nervous at the lineout (which is normally a strength) even throwing to a club mate and then panicked in the loose - one loopy long pass which almost cost us and a few poor misses in defence. He was fine against the USA, but that’s not the yardstick we need to be looking at.
 
Reiser99 said:
If George was 30 still then sure stick with him but he'll be 36/37 by the WC. If he's still in form and there are no other options then pick him then, but we're not going to learn anymore with him starting. The tour to Argentina was fine, we lacked experience in the squad, but now that the Lions players are back it's not as essential.
LCD is similar, he's 32 and will be 34 by the WC. However, he's had a lot more injuries than George and there's no guarantee he'll still be fit by the WC. I know Borthwick wants to win, but it would be a huge risk to just keep capping these 2 and hope they are both at the same level by the WC. I know some people here say pick your best players regardless, but this is quite possibly the exception to the rule.

He seems to be sticking with Dan, though if Dan is out for a while he has an opportunity to pick someone else. My ideal situation would be that he picks whoever shows the most potential and is in form after the opening rounds and has them on the bench for the AIs with either George or LCD starting and then come the 6Ns he starts them unless they are clearly struggling.
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Exactly my view.
 
I wouldn't put too much weight into Langdon's performance vs Argentina, obviously it was disappointing but he was better vs USA (though with the caveat of them being a much worse side - though CCS barely played vs Argentina and we're calling it a successful tour for him largely based off of the USA game) and came into the side a few hours before the Argentina game due to JG getting called up, not an easy step up to make

Hoping he gets another shot over the autumn
 
TRF_Olyy said:
I wouldn't put too much weight into Langdon's performance vs Argentina, obviously it was disappointing but he was better vs USA (though with the caveat of them being a much worse side - though CCS barely played vs Argentina and we're calling it a successful tour for him largely based off of the USA game) and came into the side a few hours before the Argentina game due to JG getting called up, not an easy step up to make

Hoping he gets another shot over the autumn
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The issue with Langdon is that hes been pulling up trees for a few seasons and yet over looked...so is there something in his game that the coaches dont like? I cant see it...but there must be a reason why hes not been looked at properly.
 
TBF, I think that’s more of a case of being wedded to George and LCD as the clear first and second choice than a particular comment on Langdon though. He’s usually been involved in the squads. Walker was around but seems to have been forgotten entirely now.
 
I think the central contract for Dan hasn't helped either. I feel that either Borthwick himself or above him don't want to be seen as having made a huge blunder with the very first round of contracts. Did they even give all the contracts out? On reason Dan got one was ironically to develop a young upcoming player, but Borthwick jumped the gun and it backfired hugely.
 
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The rest of the pack’s shaping up pretty well. And while I’ve said before that it’s time to move on from George it wouldn’t be the very worst thing in the world to have a rock solid basics hooker at the fulcrum of the pack. There are plenty of Duracell bunnies around who can do the running.

A few years ago George was one of the very best in the world. He’s not that now, but if he can guarantee others the platform his place can be justified. Personally I’d pick LCD now but injuries are a concern.

Someone else does need to emerge, but I think we’re going to have to skip a generation to one of the young guns.
 
Reiser99 said:
I think the central contract for Dan hasn't helped either. I feel that either Borthwick himself or above him don't want to be seen as having made a huge blunder with the very first round of contracts. Did they even give all the contracts out? On reason Dan got one was ironically to develop a young upcoming player, but Borthwick jumped the gun and it backfired hugely.
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Dan definitely shouldn't have got a central contract but at that point he did look promising and I don't think it was overly optimistic to think he would improve to the point where he would be a solid 3rd choice. Not every decision is going to be correct.

Did Borthwick ‘jump the gun’? Yes, a bit. Would I say it ‘backfired’? Yes. ‘Hugely’ is overstating it though.
 
I think almost regardless of form, we need extended time to see what the non-established players can do, otherwise we end up with a situation like Jones with scrumhalfs where we went into the world cup with no established alternatives.

Yes it's a step down to the others, and I wouldn't propose we bin off George and LCD entirely, but the their game time must be reduced and others given prolonged opportunities. If none of the others are good enough, but we keep them all out, all that happens it's we will still have not good enough hookers in the future but with even fewer caps.

If a real talent comes along, they can obviously leap to the front, but we can't sit back waiting for that to happen.
 
BPM said:
Dan definitely shouldn't have got a central contract but at that point he did look promising and I don't think it was overly optimistic to think he would improve to the point where he would be a solid 3rd choice. Not every decision is going to be correct.

Did Borthwick 'jump the gun'? Yes, a bit. Would I say it 'backfired'? Yes. 'Hugely' is overstating it though.
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Financially “huge” is probably fairly accurate. A 6 figure sum to a player who during the contract seemed to regress. And of course we had the bizarre situation of the non-contracted LCD being first choice in the 6N and earning Lions selection ahead of the 2 contracted hookers.

Borthwick, in a very unBorthwick way, took a punt. Kind of understandable, but it hasn’t worked.
 
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Ragey Erasmus said:
I think almost regardless of form, we need extended time to see what the non-established players can do, otherwise we end up with a situation like Jones with scrumhalfs where we went into the world cup with no established alternatives.

Yes it's a step down to the others, and I wouldn't propose we bin off George and LCD entirely, but the their game time must be reduced and others given prolonged opportunities. If none of the others are good enough, but we keep them all out, all that happens it's we will still have not good enough hookers in the future but with even fewer caps.

If a real talent comes along, they can obviously leap to the front, but we can't sit back waiting for that to happen.
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Which other though?

Hooker’s a pretty important position and against decent opposition I don’t want my bench option there ‘to see what happens’. You saw what happened in the 3rd Lions test when Sheehan’s radar went AWOL and I didn’t notice Kelleher in close proximity to a barn door all tour. At line out time they’re totally exposed and a malfunctioning set piece is a big deal for the whole team.

Nor do I want a Walker style situation where he just got splinters.

Not easy, but I’m not seeing anyone really forcing the hand yet.
 
As others have pointed out, game times getting tighter. I can't see Borthwick changing much this series of AI's and six nations.

That leaves around 10 games, possible summer tour and RWC warm ups. Just doesn't seem a lot. At best I'll think it'll be one of LCD and another of the bench.

Unless he sticks with a by then 37yo George.
 
Hooker seems to be one of those positions where trust really has to be earned.

Walker patently didn’t get it and nor did Singleton who was our 3rd choice at the 19 RWC. When that started LCD was already 26 with just 15 caps to his name. George got his first 19 caps from the bench and by his 25th birthday had only played in a RWC warm up and the dead rubber against Uruguay.

36/7 isn’t without precedent for a hooker but it’s not ideal.
 
Hooker is probably the most skillfully demanding position on the pitch after the half backs. It feels like a lot of players lately are trying to be all-action without really getting their set piece right first.

Dunno what to do next, but I wouldn't start from here.
 
Apparently England have requested World Rugby change eligibility rules so that players locked by u20s caps no longer are

Absolute ********, that is - RFU bunch of sad sacks of ****

Doing all this to try and poach BJvR and **** all over the actual emerging talent at 12 in this country
 
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