Arundell added to the training squad,
What a joke - pure selection by media, that is. He's only played one game since January
What a joke - pure selection by media, that is. He's only played one game since January
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I don’t think it’s the media. Borthwick just likes him and might well have been involved in him moving back to England.
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Literally infinitely more than IFW although you did say his inclusion was silly too.
IDK. SB gets accused of being too data driven (guilty!) and then he gets flak for more of an instinct pick. TBH I don’t think the media have influenced this - haven’t seen Arundell’s name mentioned in forever.
On recent form (he hasn’t got any) he doesn’t deserve to be there. It might only be holding tackle bags for a few days, but he’s clearly got something and if SB thinks he can be moulded further then why not have a look? Suspect he might also be a little more humble than the last time he wore the shirt.
Players shouldn't be learning how to tackle or pass at international level, might be an old fashioned opinion but it's one I stand by
Let him go to Bath and see what form he's like next season - rushing to get him back in the England squad the second he's eligible is bad optics IMO
Let him go to Bath and see what form he's like next season - rushing to get him back in the England squad the second he's eligible is bad optics IMO
Yeah really, who gives a ****. Get a decent season under your belt and show you're better than the other 7 back three players we have and let's talk
Yeah i generally agree, Arundle shouldnt be there.
But theres quite a few in this training squad who wont be part of the teams and SB is just casting his glance over them. Players like Lockett, Capstick etc probably wont be in the touring squad..
I dont mind that and in fact quite like the fact SB is doing that. His coaching team can get an idea of where the players are and can give them a working programme on what to improve.
Thats the whole idea of the Non capped XV and A game set ups...
But theres quite a few in this training squad who wont be part of the teams and SB is just casting his glance over them. Players like Lockett, Capstick etc probably wont be in the touring squad..
I dont mind that and in fact quite like the fact SB is doing that. His coaching team can get an idea of where the players are and can give them a working programme on what to improve.
Thats the whole idea of the Non capped XV and A game set ups...
On the other hand - it potentially sets a precedent that he'd select Bath/Leicester players who are 100% guaranteed NOT to take part in the final, but ARE able to play - for the England XV match.
AKA "I'd pick Underhill if his ban ended with the final" AKA "The England A match should count towards his ban" AKA "I can now select Underhill against Argentina"
Generally though, I think that Arundell is one of many talented wingers who still have a lot to learn and prove. Which puts him amongst a pack, and becomes a coach's decision.
Compared to the pack, he's got 7 tries in 10 tests for England
Sleightholme has 6 from 8
Freeman has 5 from 9
IFW has 5 tries from 9
Radwan has 4 tries from 2
Roebuck has 2 from 4
OHC has 0 from 2
Murley has 1 from 1
Of that bunch, he's got more current form than IFW; more international form than any of his rivals, and is the only one who's gone to a world cup (with Borthwick as HC).
I've no problem with Arundell being selected for the squad for England XV vs France XV, or for the coaches to run their eyes over him in training. I've no particular problem with them taking him to Argentina and USA either. He's fit enough to play 80 minutes and score 2 tries as recently as 4 days ago, so he's fit enough to play.
I personally think that he's over-rated at the moment, based on excitement about his potential. He's a physical freak who is in the process of learning to be a rugby player (think early Johnny May or Joe Cokanasiga - one of whom proves that it's possible to become world class, and one of whom proves that it's not guaranteed - both prove that international coaches want to be involved in the process).
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4 or 5 of those tries were walk ins at the 23 WC in one match to put a little perspective on them
Idk I think ever since Borthwick got a spanking by the media machine I feel he’s done a lot of media driven calls.
Yes, perspective applies to all of them.
3 of Radwan's were in a rout against Canada.
As always, nuance exists.
As for the text, I think he's over-rated based on potential. A physical freak who is learning to play rugby - just like other physical freaks who had to learn to play rugby.
I don't see a convincing argument for why he would be towards the top of that pack of 8. I don't see a convincing argument for why he wouldn't be either.
Freeman, IFW and Arundell have all looked comfortable at international level. Of the other 5, only Sleightholme has had the opportunity to look comfortable or otherwise at international level, and the jury (IMO) is still very much out, 2 of them are also unavailable.
I should also ass that people (press and fans) are calling for Paul Brown-Bampoe and Gabrielle Ibitoye to both be in the squad, and added to my pack of 8.
PBB is in good form, but hasn't been targetted by opponents yet. I want him to go away, do a lot of learning over the summer, hit pre-season hard, show that he doesn't suffer from Second Season Syndrome, and enter the conversation in November / January. Beyond that, he's in the same boat as eg Arundell, in being a raw talent, and physical freak, and learning to play rugby - but without HA's 4 years experiences (whilst 1 year younger), international record, and extra life experience.
Ibitoye is slippery as an eel; but I don't think that his game would be effective at international level - both in defence and attack (especially SB's version of both). Like Radwan, he's also 5 years older than the likes of Arundell & IFW. If they're not ready now, they're not likely to be, and not likely to particularly improve with another couple of years in their legs.
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Ibitoye isnt a SB winger. Id be amazed if he was ever selected. SB likes a winger who can defend.
Can we actually say Arundle has looked good at this level? Id question that to be honest. Hes not played that much and scored 5 tries against.....Chile.
Poor Murley is a WAY more rounded winger and hes be roundly hammered because of one poor game.
Can we actually say Arundle has looked good at this level? Id question that to be honest. Hes not played that much and scored 5 tries against.....Chile.
Poor Murley is a WAY more rounded winger and hes be roundly hammered because of one poor game.
It was two (admittedly glaring) errors on his ~debut~ rather than a poor game. He also scored a lovely try, set up another and looked otherwise fine. I wouldn't write him off or start clamouring for say, Paul Brown-Bampoe or a.n.other just yet
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This is a weakened, extended training squad, he’s not being parachuted into a starting XV and may not even tour. And, really, is he depriving anyone else of an opportunity who’s been crying out to be picked?
As for the optics, maybe, but SB did pick him last time he was available so is being sort of consistent. It’s now up to Arundell to prove he’s worth his place and for the others to convince that he’s not.
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OHC and Radwan.
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No Tigers or Bath players in the squad due to GP final…..
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Me no think so good
Tobias Elliot far more deserving based on this season
Ah im not writing him off at all...i think hes a cracking player.
Aye. And if any side is going to embarrass you on your debut it'll be Ireland.
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His try made some of Arundell’s look long range. And he definitely made a couple of howlers but as you say, it’s the evidence of one game and a debut at that.
There are much bigger fans of Murley on this forum than me, but he’s one of a batch of second strings behind IFW and Freeman. Whether he does or doesn’t get another shot won’t be down to what happened against Ireland. The timing of his injury was more of an issue for him.
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