England 2025/26

[Saintjay]

You see it all the time, good players bad coaching and then they turn it around when a new coach comes in.

My worries are Borthwick is to strict and inflexible. And Wigglesworth just isnt good enough yet, and never was. If he was to be with England he should have been a general assistant coach to learn and coach on his strong point. He should have stayed at Leicester.

Also I wonder if Borthwick is the type of coach that needs day in day out with players to be affective rather than a 2 week camp.

Maybe it's a player and coach issue.

Friend asked yesterday how many England player start in a Six nations combined XV. You can make strong arguments for none

Still I don't think Borthwick has got the best out of what we have. With wrong / inconsistent selections, certainly no coherence

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

You see it all the time, good players bad coaching and then they turn it around when a new coach comes in.

My worries are Borthwick is to strict and inflexible. And Wigglesworth just isnt good enough yet, and never was. If he was to be with England he should have been a general assistant coach to learn and coach on his strong point. He should have stayed at Leicester.

Also I wonder if Borthwick is the type of coach that needs day in day out with players to be affective rather than a 2 week camp.

Maybe it's a player and coach issue.

Friend asked yesterday how many England player start in a Six nations combined XV. You can make strong arguments for none

Still I don't think Borthwick has got the best out of what we have. With wrong / inconsistent selections, certainly no coherence

I don’t think that’s a fair analysis. The reason being if England were playing better more players would be on contention for those discussions. England are not playing well due to the coaching and tactics as a start.

In reality a whole host of England players would start for a lot of other nations and play way better but people have tainted view due to England sucking.

Borthwick lost to Italy ffs, we lost by playing some terrible rugby which none of the players do for their clubs, the style, the tactics, the structure is all wrong.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Maybe it's a player and coach issue.

Friend asked yesterday how many England player start in a Six nations combined XV. You can make strong arguments for none

Still I don't think Borthwick has got the best out of what we have. With wrong / inconsistent selections, certainly no coherence

You could make a very strong argument for all of the lions.

The players deserve a fair bit of flak, but they're being set up to fail, and I don't feel that it's useful to castigate them in that situation. The blame lies with whoever set them for failure. However good the players, they're onto a loser anyway, because of the set up - worse still if they know it, however hard they may try to hide that from themselves.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but you can make an absolute mess with pure silk. A good oach can presumably make a reasonable leather purse ou of the sow's ear.
Even if we massively over-rate our own players, they're still performing well below parf or who's there.

Give Borthwick our first choice 23, and any Prem coaching crew (maybe not Skivington etc al) our 2nd choice, and give them the same access over a year, and I'd bet our the possibles to beat the probables.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

South Africa is a massive exception to this rule and virtually every other.

But we’ve said before that most international teams have a big core from a small number of clubs that helps with understanding and continuity.

On Saturday we had 5 clubs represented in our back line. The pack also had reps from 5. The only unit on the pitch with 2 from the same club was the back 3 where Murley and Smith is no-one’s idea of a dream ticket.

8 clubs were represented in the starting XV with a 9th, Bath, only having benchers. Newcastle was the only club to miss out.

While it’s great that we’ve had so many different PREM champs in recent years I do think that lack of a dominant club or 2 hurts us internationally.

 

[Saintjay]

South Africa is a massive exception to this rule and virtually every other.

But we’ve said before that most international teams have a big core from a small number of clubs that helps with understanding and continuity.

On Saturday we had 5 clubs represented in our back line. The pack also had reps from 5. The only unit on the pitch with 2 from the same club was the back 3 where Murley and Smith is no-one’s idea of a dream ticket.

8 clubs were represented in the starting XV with a 9th, Bath, only having benchers. Newcastle was the only club to miss out.

While it’s great that we’ve had so many different PREM champs in recent years I do think that lack of a dominant club or 2 hurts us internationally.

Wasn't the the final 2003 starting XV something like 6 different clubs in the backs, 6 in the forwards. Something like 9 clubs represented


Which is pretty remarkable bit like SA now.

The core difference a number of those players were world class at that point.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Wasn't the the final 2003 starting XV something like 6 different clubs in the backs, 6 in the forwards. Something like 9 clubs represented


Which is pretty remarkable bit like SA now.

The core difference a number of those players were world class at that point.

Difference between today and 2022 is there are no clear and obvious Prem choices to replace Steve.

I agreed with your post in the other thread: If the RFU were smart, setup a small, tactical hiring team to analyze everyone over the next 15 months.

Have a short list of going into the World Cup and then interview a few people at the conclusion. Make the hire in November or early December.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wasn't the the final 2003 starting XV something like 6 different clubs in the backs, 6 in the forwards. Something like 9 clubs represented


Which is pretty remarkable bit like SA now.

The core difference a number of those players were world class at that point.

They were. And the senior player group also had enough clout to get the coach to listen to them.

But there’s also an element of that was then. Even since 2019, the pace and the analysis have ramped up considerably. Split second understanding matters. Might not be a panacea but it would sure help…..

 

[ChicagoKid]

They were. And the senior player group also had enough clout to get the coach to listen to them.

But there’s also an element of that was then. Even since 2019, the pace and the analysis have ramped up considerably. Split second understanding matters. Might not be a panacea but it would sure help…..

Cohesion is overrated compared to competition. Getting into the England 23 should be an absolute dog fight every single week.

That competition makes people better and forces them to address their weaknesses or get dropped.

There are a few positions and players that do not deserve to play for the shirt.

Marcus Smith at 15
JVP
LCD
Tom Curry (love him. Not in form at all)
Tommy at 13
Murley
Ewels
Pepper

Those guys shouldn’t play until they get in form.

 

[BrokenWing]

If the RFU were smart, setup a small, tactical hiring team to analyze everyone over the next 15 months.

An excellent suggestion with just one minor drawback.

They aren't.

They managed to analyse Borthwick's performance over The Six Nations and conclude it was fine.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Roebuck added to replace Furbank.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Very weird choice - surely you call up...pretty much any 15 (apart from Hodge)?

Furbank is rarely fit, Smith isn't up to starting standard, Steward never clicks in this England side - surely we should be looking at depth

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Very weird choice - surely you call up...pretty much any 15 (apart from Hodge)?

Furbank is rarely fit, Smith isn't up to starting standard, Steward never clicks in this England side - surely we should be looking at depth

Borthsheet says no

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Murley also ‘under assessment’ for a shoulder problem which might help explain it.

Or might not. Steward also similarly described.

Ariel issues at the weekend might also help explain. Will Caluori get a shot v Fiji?

 

[Saintjay]

Murley also ‘under assessment’ for a shoulder problem which might help explain it.

Or might not. Steward also similarly described.

Ariel issues at the weekend might also help explain. Will Caluori get a shot v Fiji?

Probably because Bostik will still be playing are best wing at 13.

Unless he decides to roll out the Saffa

 

[Ddanno]

Ariel issues at the weekend might also help explain.

Is she ok?? My sister will lose her **** if she's hurt

 

[BrokenWing]

Will Caluori get a shot v Fiji?

Well what’s to lose? Biffwick has already coached England to their first loss to Fiji so that record isn’t on the line.

Record loss to Fiji I suppose.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Very weird choice - surely you call up...pretty much any 15 (apart from Hodge)?

Furbank is rarely fit, Smith isn't up to starting standard, Steward never clicks in this England side - surely we should be looking at depth

To "play like Furbank" it would probably be DeGlanvile and Carpenter; with the likes of Donoghue, CAtkinson and Benson as wildcard options

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ooor hear me out

We start Billy Searle at 10 then we would have a good enough 10 who doesn’t need a second playmaker

 

[Geordie]

Probably because Bostik will still be playing are best wing at 13.

Unless he decides to roll out the Saffa

BJVR will be the first name on the team sheet.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He was soooo good vs France XV, you can see why we're so keen to drop Atkinson for him

 

[Becca]

He was soooo good vs France XV, you can see why we're so keen to drop Atkinson for him

That performance just highlighted why he’s so indispensable to the English cause.

 

[Geordie]

He was soooo good vs France XV, you can see why we're so keen to drop Atkinson for him

He'll be in at 13. Atkinson at 12 ...Freeman back to wing or rested for Roebuck.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Borthwick will be very close to the sack if we lose agaisnt Fiji.

 

[mackerzz]

Is Ollie Lawrence injured? In the very little I have seen of English rugby, I would have thought the Bath pair would be the best - aka Lawrence and Ojomoh

 

[Geordie]

Is Ollie Lawrence injured? In the very little I have seen of English rugby, I would have thought the Bath pair would be the best - aka Lawrence and Ojomoh

Its a defensive problem....

Defensive stats...Average over season
https://theanalyst.com/club-rugby-stats

Lawrence
Tackles per 80 mins: 6
Success %: 77.7
Dominant Tackles %: 4.2

Ojomoh
Tackles per 80 mins: 5
Success %: 64.7
Dominant Tackles %: 4.8

BJVR
Tackles per 80 mins: 11
Success %: 83.4
Dominant Tackles %: 5.8

Freeman
Tackles per 80 mins: 7
Success %: 86.7
Dominant Tackles %: 16.7

Seb Atkinson
Tackles per 80 mins: 12
Success %: 91.9
Dominant Tackles %: 3.6

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I just think his form has been poor in general, not really just his defence.

 

[Geordie]

I just think his form has been poor in general, not really just his defence.

I would agree.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The form 13 in Lichfield is just sat at home where as the saints 4th choice 13 starts for England.

I think that sums up Borthwicks selections quite nicely. Selecting from players that don’t exist rather than picking a style game plan from players that do exist.

 

[Saintjay]

The form 13 in Lichfield is just sat at home where as the saints 4th choice 13 starts for England.

I think that sums up Borthwicks selections quite nicely. Selecting from players that don’t exist rather than picking a style game plan from players that do exist.

From talking with Saints fans he also had BJVR on toast vs Bris last time out

 

[Geordie]

The form 13 in Lichfield is just sat at home where as the saints 4th choice 13 starts for England.

I think that sums up Borthwicks selections quite nicely. Selecting from players that don’t exist rather than picking a style game plan from players that do exist.

I couldnt agree more. I dont understand why Litchfield hasnt been looked at. Especially when we're crying out for some size and power in that midfield.