England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Peat]

Jones was pretty happy with Cole.

Guess it might be deemed not worth the risk against Italy and better for Brookes to play for club.

There'd be a lot less risk involved in bring Brookes into camp where Jones can more or less guarantee he'll only play 20 minutes than in leaving him at Northampton.

I thought Cole played decently enough and would love to see Hill get minutes so I'm not that mad... no, wait, I'm lying, Brookes should be playing against whoever we have third, he should be getting integrated, there's two decent players getting a game so it could be worse but the probable best player won't be involved despite being fit and that's a little weird.

 

[RJV]

Just another thought.
Why don't we blood some of the new talent around and prepare them for the next world cup.
Other sporting greats were thrown in at the deep end Tendulker, Pele etc, if they're good enough they'll not only survive they'll thrive

 

[RJV]

Why can't we get Jonny involved with our backs

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Jonny is involved with our backs.

 

[McTallshort]

Just another thought.
Why don't we blood some of the new talent around and prepare them for the next world cup.
Other sporting greats were thrown in at the deep end Tendulker, Pele etc, if they're good enough they'll not only survive they'll thrive

Yeah let's not worry about winning games let's just worry about blooding loads of players for the World Cup in 4 years time sure that was Stuart Lancaster's plan and look how that worked.

 

[j'nuh]

tbf to Jones, Brookes came in late to the training camp, I think it was two weeks after everyone else. I can appreciate it, so early in Jones charge, if he felt the priority was getting the team ready rather than getting players up to speed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We already have a really young side, anyway.
From the 23 on Saturday:
Marler, Mako, Kruis and George are 25,
Launchbury, Farrell and Joseph are 24,
Billy is 23,
Clifford, Ford, Devoto and Nowell are 22,
Watson is 21,
Hill is 20,


14/23 are 25 or under.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It was only a week late, so he's been in camp as long as the players had when they faced Scotland.

I'd be far happier with him getting extra training days with England + 20ish from the bench vs Italy than 80 mins for Saints.

 

[corny]

More carriers is a massive need. As is big, powerful, dynamic breakdown-hitters - not "breakdown specialists" in the since of a turnover specialist, but someone with the physique and ability to hit attacking breakdowns hard, blast out the opposition and create quick ball. I would argue that often the same player fulfils both carrying and ruck-smashing roles (Ewers being an example) - a big, dynamic guy with explosive power and good body position is likely to excel both in hitting contact and in hitting rucks. Ewers I already mentioned, Clifford probably fits that mould, sure there are others I'm forgetting. Haskell and Robshaw simply don't.

Always back to type with the English. More power.

What England need are lighter lads who are quicker over the ground not bigger players. The key to the breakdown under the current rules is to stop the opposition establishing position. If someone like Warburton or Sean O' Brien gets there first they're not blown off the ball easily. They'll either kill all momentum in the attack or worse, win a penalty.

You stop them getting there first not blast them out of the way. You do that with a more mobile backrow.

 

[Wendigo7]

Always back to type with the English. More power.

What England need are lighter lads who are quicker over the ground not bigger players. The key to the breakdown under the current rules is to stop the opposition establishing position. If someone like Warburton or Sean O' Brien gets there first they're not blown off the ball easily. They'll either kill all momentum in the attack or worse, win a penalty.

You stop them getting there first not blast them out of the way. You do that with a more mobile backrow.

Lighter lads gives us a backrow akin to Scotlands.

Not sure if you've checked NZs backrow and Australias, I'm pretty sure like SA they are heavier than the majority of the NH backrows so it's a lie. There's no way, Kaino, Read and Cane/Ioane are lighter than Robshaw, Haskell and Vunipola. Kaino and Read are monsterous blokes. Ioane is a freak at 7.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Kvesic and Beaumont in training squad for Italy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35528482

Whelm has just increased!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kvesic and Beaumont in training squad for Italy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35528482

Whelm has just increased!

Just wait until he plays Haskell at 7 and Goode at 15.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just wait until he plays Haskell at 7 and Goode at 15.

No! Back in your box you foul mind-muggler!

 

[corny]

Lighter lads gives us a backrow akin to Scotlands.

Not sure if you've checked NZs backrow and Australias, I'm pretty sure like SA they are heavier than the majority of the NH backrows so it's a lie. There's no way, Kaino, Read and Cane/Ioane are lighter than Robshaw, Haskell and Vunipola. Kaino and Read are monsterous blokes. Ioane is a freak at 7.

I was thinking more in the context of the 6N's but since you brought it up. These are quick wiki searches.

Billy Vunipola 126kg
Chris Ronshaw 110kg
James Haskell 118kg

Kieran Read 110kg
Sam Cane 103kg
Jerome Kaino 113kg

NZ aren't a great example though because they've lads who defy logic. Take Ireland for example.

Peter O' Mahony 107kg
Sean O' Brien 108kg
Jamie Heaslip 110kg

You shouldn't need stats to back up what i'm saying though. It should be obvious to your eyes when watching England.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think you're missing the point, corny.
It's not like we have a powerful pack but want more - Robshaw and Haskell are both weak carriers and counter ruckers and we need to rectify that because we're not breaking the gainline and are getting blown away at the ruck.
Are you honestly saying that POM and SOB are weaker players than Robshaw/Haskell because they're lighter?

 

[corny]

I think you're missing the point, corny.
It's not like we have a powerful pack but want more - Robshaw and Haskell are both weak carriers and counter ruckers and we need to rectify that because we're not breaking the gainline and are getting blown away at the ruck.
Are you honestly saying that POM and SOB are weaker players than Robshaw/Haskell because they're lighter?

Not at all. Strictly on the breakdown i was speaking. The original assertion was that England need bigger and more powerful lads to obliterate the breakdown. Thats fallacious as i see it. They need more mobile lads to get there faster. Thats the key to generating quick ball. Simply put you won't need to smash the ruck to smithereens if you're there first!

 

[Peat]

Strictly on the breakdown, you need *both* pace and power - and technique and decision making too. You are never going to succeed on one aspect alone. If you do not make the right decisions and have the right speed to get there in time, you're done. But you are never going to get to every breakdown in sufficient numbers before the opponent can contest. You're never going to do it on pace alone. You have to have the power and technique to clear out congested situations.

Big dynamic guys with explosive power and good body positions sounds like the ideal to me more or less. I assume by dynamic ETR means speed, more or less. Power and speed is the main thing though.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Just wait until he plays Haskell at 7 and Goode at 15.

If Ford is 10 with Farrell at 12 again I'll cry.

 

[McTallshort]

Think Ford is a liability at the minute and doesn't fit with the way England seem to want to play. I can see him being dropped before the end of the tournament

 

[Tony Manx]

Jones seems to bellowing for continuity so am sending over some hankies Olyy!!!