England vs Argentina - 05/07/25

[McTallshort]

Are you suggesting that they choked on the favourites tag?
TBF, if so, they wouldn't be the first, and it's not like they're accustomed to that tag against tier 1 opponents.

Being favourites to win a rugby match shouldn't affect how you play a game. If it does then you need to look long and hard at your preparation.

 

[Which Tyler]

Being favourites to win a rugby match shouldn't affect how you play a game. If it does then you need to look long and hard at your preparation.

And yet, rugby players, and coaches, are human, and it clearly happens frequentl,, in all sports. There's a reason that words like "choking" or "complacency"... exist.
Which doesn't mean that it's a good thing, of course.

 

[McTallshort]

And yet, rugby players, and coaches, are human, and it clearly happens frequentl,, in all sports. There's a reason that words like "choking" or "complacency"... exist.
Which doesn't mean that it's a good thing, of course.

Yeah agree and it's down to failed preparation

 

[Rugbyfan564]

I think it's mostly 'didn't select'. Not sure if they wanted to experiment or whether it was a bit of complacency given the inexperience of our side?

They weren't wholesale changes from the side that beat the Lions though - the halfbacks and Sclavi were the main personnel changes IIRC? Carreras played but at 15. Picking him at 10 definitely helped England.

Next week will be a cracking game. I assume Albornoz will be back at 10 and they'll be fired-up. England will need another step-up on last night's performance but a series win would be immense.

The commentators said it was to rest for the Rugby Championship.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Even the pitch supported Ford

 

[SamYeager270]

Best thing to do for English rugby would be to suspend Bath Rugby from the sport of Rugby Union and redistribute their players and staff

Foxtrot Oscar.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Best thing to do for English rugby would be to suspend Bath Rugby from the sport of Rugby Union and redistribute their players and staff

Meanwhile your club:

 

[Which Tyler]

Yeah agree and it's down to failed preparation

My apologies, I think I was misunderstanding your point.
Yes, preparation, but also a great intangible - the whole "everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face" thing. Sometimes, shit just happens (though that's probably not really a "choke" - so... as you were, I guess)

 

[higgik]

What was really promising was how well the front row did. Baxter and Heyes seem to be really growing into international rugby.
Willis is nailed on 8 imo.
Flankers will always be a hard call, but until Martin can stay fit Chessum and Itoje will be out main locks so make it easier to call.


Ford is class, when he is on form I don't think England has ever had a better playmaker.
Disagree Fin Smith is Ford and more. Fin is a much better defender but he's still got much to learn.
Ford will prob go down as the most underrated England player.

Also it's a shame Steward defence is so weak because (I know I'm biased here) his improvement has been insane especially from an attack POV his passing is better, his carrying is better. He really could be a perfect 12 for England as he can crash ball and he's starting to help in the playmaking but I just don't see Tigers moving him

Ford has suffered from a claustrophobic environment for many years, where doing something different to game plan got you the hook. Farrell got picked because he was so good at executing game plans.
His best work was when he had on field coaches, like Barritt and Goode.

 

[higgik]

I know I am late to party regarding the change kit, but it is very Scottish.
At least change the sky blue and purple for red and white.
The Navy shirt with red trim instead of sky, the the 'print' in red and white.

 

[BPM]

My apologies, I think I was misunderstanding your point.
Yes, preparation, but also a great intangible - the whole "everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face" thing. Sometimes, shit just happens (though that's probably not really a "choke" - so... as you were, I guess)

Indeed. Also probably quite difficult to prepare against an England team minus a good chunk of it's regular starters.

 

[IT157]

Already got five 10s, they don't need another.

You are one of the most obtuse posters I've ever seen on a message board.

 

[BrokenWing]

An obtuse Anglophobe if you will.

 

[Reiser99]

So finished watching finally.

I think most points have been made. Main one I disagree with is that England switched tactics in the second half. I don't think they did, instead they managed to win the ball back more after kicking. England only really had possession once in the Argentinian half during the first half and they played very attacking rugby. I think the tactic the whole time was the kick anything in their own half and try to win possession and then attack in the Argentinian half. However, they didn't get it right in the first half, too many mistakes and Argentina dealt with it better in the first half. Once they got more possession during the second half they actually had the chance to show the game plan.

It's still not ideal because better teams will make England pay for giving them that much possession and it's very dependent on an excellent defence which England had today. I still don't see us regularly beating the top 4 playing like that, but at least it felt a bit more ambitious than previously.

BTW, I watch it on this youtube vid and I absolutely loved the commentary during the second half. No idea which stream the guy who uploaded it switched to with his VPN, but so much more enjoyable to listen to than our boring English contingent.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

BTW, I watch it on this youtube vid and I absolutely loved the commentary during the second half. No idea which stream the guy who uploaded it switched to with his VPN, but so much more enjoyable to listen to than our boring English contingent

They were the ones I had for the whole game - loved it too,
They were genuinely excited by the big hits, and just generally sounded happy to be watching and commentating on rugby for a job

 

[BrokenWing]

Did that go out live on YT?

 

[Reiser99]

No, someone recorded their stream I think. Definitely using a VPN as they switched commentaries a couple of times.

 

[Which Tyler]

So finished watching finally.

I think most points have been made. Main one I disagree with is that England switched tactics in the second half. I don't think they did, instead they managed to win the ball back more after kicking. England only really had possession once in the Argentinian half during the first half and they played very attacking rugby. I think the tactic the whole time was the kick anything in their own half and try to win possession and then attack in the Argentinian half. However, they didn't get it right in the first half, too many mistakes and Argentina dealt with it better in the first half. Once they got more possession during the second half they actually had the chance to show the game plan.

Agreed - I'd need to see it again, and it took a little time after the match had finished, but I think it was a change in execution and adaptation.
During the 1st half, we did well to adapt to the ref (and George did well in making him explain his reasoning, so that we COULD adapt).
For me the biggest change at HT was the communication between Spencer and Ford. In the first half, either Ford wasn't standing where Spencer expected him to be, or Spencer wasn't putting the ball where Ford wanted it (they're kinda the same thing); and George was halting his movement, reaching behind or above him to catch the ball, taking away his time to do anything, meaning that he was then snatching at his kicks (and usually had to be kicks either because of pitch position, or not shovelling on shit). I think there was also some issues with presentation of the ball from the pack to Spencer. So poor presentation, couple with poor communication/positioning => poor pass => poor execution => playing on the back foot in the wrong parts of the pitch.
I think that that's what was cleared up in the 2nd half; but I don't know if it was the forwards adapting to Spencer, Spencer adapting to Ford, Ford adapting to Spencer, or a combination of all (I suspect a combination of all).
Marginal gains leading to a virtuous cycle

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Agreed - I'd need to see it again, and it took a little time after the match had finished, but I think it was a change in execution and adaptation.
During the 1st half, we did well to adapt to the ref (and George did well in making him explain his reasoning, so that we COULD adapt).
For me the biggest change at HT was the communication between Spencer and Ford. In the first half, either Ford wasn't standing where Spencer expected him to be, or Spencer wasn't putting the ball where Ford wanted it (they're kinda the same thing); and George was halting his movement, reaching behind or above him to catch the ball, taking away his time to do anything, meaning that he was then snatching at his kicks (and usually had to be kicks either because of pitch position, or not shovelling on shit). I think there was also some issues with presentation of the ball from the pack to Spencer. So poor presentation, couple with poor communication/positioning => poor pass => poor execution => playing on the back foot in the wrong parts of the pitch.
I think that that's what was cleared up in the 2nd half; but I don't know if it was the forwards adapting to Spencer, Spencer adapting to Ford, Ford adapting to Spencer, or a combination of all (I suspect a combination of all).
Marginal gains leading to a virtuous cycle

I just wonder if it was as you indicated, why couldn't they resolve that on pitch during the half? Did they need the coach to decide who was calling the shots?

 

[Which Tyler]

I just wonder if it was as you indicated, why couldn't they resolve that on pitch during the half? Did they need the coach to decide who was calling the shots?

I don't know, and I don't know if it was just the case - though I can be confident it's not all of the case.
My guess would be - time on the pitch, and time to discuss solutions, potentially try a couple of different options until you get one that works - especially as even I am suggesting multiple moving parts.
What we do know is that combinations always improve with time playing together