• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

England vs New Zealand

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RC @ Nov 20 2009, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I don't know why, but i don't see England losing by a 30 point margin as some members are suggesting.
New Zealand are a good team, but they aren't the same team they were in 05.[/b]

Would agree there, expecting an aerial bombardment from the English through the game, have they got any decent chasers?

Might be interesting in the final quarter if the English defenders tire given the AB back line. Zac could turn on a rampage if given enough ball and space.

England need to cover across the field and use a drifting defense imho. Try to play it down NZ's end and feed off the mistakes.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jethro @ Nov 20 2009, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RC @ Nov 20 2009, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know why, but i don't see England losing by a 30 point margin as some members are suggesting.
New Zealand are a good team, but they aren't the same team they were in 05.[/b]

Would agree there, expecting an aerial bombardment from the English through the game, have they got any decent chasers?

Might be interesting in the final quarter if the English defenders tire given the AB back line. Zac could turn on a rampage if given enough ball and space.

England need to cover across the field and use a drifting defense imho. Try to play it down NZ's end and feed off the mistakes.
[/b][/quote]

We have the quickest man on the pitch in Monye, a big fella in Banahan and a nuts guy in Moody who should all make good chasers.

However, England's kicking game = kick it a long way straight to member of opposition. Not much use in chasing these sort of kicks. What's more, unless Hodgson takes on the mantle, Wilkinson will be doing all the kicking, because no one outside him has a boot at all. Which means all Thompson has to do is fly up in his face and he'll be put under pressure and produce even poorer kicks than usual.

This will then make Wilko stand very deep, which will make it predictable for the NZ defence when we're going to kick and when we're going to run. When we do run, they'll all be sitting in midfield waiting to gobble up whichever direct runner (there's about 6 in the team) has got the ball.

At this stage England will either 1) Recover the ball, try crash-ball a few more times and then get bored of slow ball and kick it down Sivivatu/ Guilford/ Muliaina's throat; 2) Give away a penalty or 3) Get turned over by McCaw.

New Zealand will then either have the ball or have a kick at goal, and they will inevitably be good at both. Or they'll kick it back to us and either Monye/ Banahan will drop it or it's back to square 1.

Let's hope I'm wrong.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 20 2009, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jethro @ Nov 20 2009, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RC @ Nov 20 2009, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know why, but i don't see England losing by a 30 point margin as some members are suggesting.
New Zealand are a good team, but they aren't the same team they were in 05.[/b]

Would agree there, expecting an aerial bombardment from the English through the game, have they got any decent chasers?

Might be interesting in the final quarter if the English defenders tire given the AB back line. Zac could turn on a rampage if given enough ball and space.

England need to cover across the field and use a drifting defense imho. Try to play it down NZ's end and feed off the mistakes.
[/b][/quote]

We have the quickest man on the pitch in Monye, a big fella in Banahan and a nuts guy in Moody who should all make good chasers.

However, England's kicking game = kick it a long way straight to member of opposition. Not much use in chasing these sort of kicks. What's more, unless Hodgson takes on the mantle, Wilkinson will be doing all the kicking, because no one outside him has a boot at all. Which means all Thompson has to do is fly up in his face and he'll be put under pressure and produce even poorer kicks than usual.

This will then make Wilko stand very deep, which will make it predictable for the NZ defence when we're going to kick and when we're going to run. When we do run, they'll all be sitting in midfield waiting to gobble up whichever direct runner (there's about 6 in the team) has got the ball.

At this stage England will either 1) Recover the ball, try crash-ball a few more times and then get bored of slow ball and kick it down Sivivatu/ Guilford/ Muliaina's throat; 2) Give away a penalty or 3) Get turned over by McCaw.

New Zealand will then either have the ball or have a kick at goal, and they will inevitably be good at both. Or they'll kick it back to us and either Monye/ Banahan will drop it or it's back to square 1.

Let's hope I'm wrong.
[/b][/quote]
Sivivatu I'd say is as fast, maybe slightly slower, it is just Sivivatu has forgotten how to run.
 
One fact about rugby so far is the All Blacks is always ALWAYS ALWAYS! good. Whether they play at home or away, had a busy season, have a list of injuries they always give you a game and a half.

England will lift all the teams the All Blacks play against lift. Its so obvious. The minute you take them lightly you'll lose to say the least. Listen to every opposing team after the game they'll tell you what it's like playing the Blacks.
 
Honestly speaking, I just cant see England winning this one. Aerial ping-pong will be the order of the day and they will be extremely lucky if they can keep the scoring margin below 20.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 19 2009, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Since he's [Banahan] been with England all he's done is come off his wing and ram raid the opposition line[/b]
Is it just me or does he kinda slow down and flinch when he goes into collision situations?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 20 2009, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Nov 20 2009, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Nov 19 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well if the odd english supporter is telling themselves that it'll be a 30-40 point blow-out to make a really feel-good situation when they only lose by 8 points or something, then I can understand that. If they really believe 30-40 points, then I'll be stunned if they are on the money.

As said above by jawmalawm24, England ALWAYS step it up for us and often have had mediocre performances going into the match. I'm not trying to say they have a huge chance, but there is one there. They are a rollercoaster of a team form-wise and thats sometimes a big weapon when they suddenly turn it on.[/b]

I agree. However, in the professional era we've managed 2 wins and one draw against the All Blacks. The draw came in 1997 from the generation that was gearing up to be one of the greatest teams ever by 2002/3. The two wins came in 2002 and 2003 when that team was at its peak.

What does this prove? Nothing on the day. But it does show that in order to beat New Zealand, England need to be a bloody good team. At the moment we are not. The England that played towards the end of this year's 6 Nations looked like it might become a good team once more. But in reality, since 2005 England have been a shockingly awful side with a few blips of success coming in RWC 07 and 6N 09. Once more, we have returned to this phase... if you exclude the odd performance here and there, England 2005-9 has been the worst period of English rugby in my lifetime. And unlike the Celtic teams, we do not have a history of staging major upsets when up against hated opposition.

My prediction is that England will compete hard, but the best the fans can hope for is to be within 10 points.
[/b][/quote]

Well, thats hard to argue, with. One point though, is the All Blacks are not as good as they have been. They have 2/3rds of an extremely good team, but over the last 2 years they haven't been able to deliver crisp ball to their backs and the passing skills have been periodically shocking. The other 1/3 (it can vary from game to game who these fools are) are prone to brain explosions that have cost us dearly.

Our forwards are as strong as ever, but our backs are so controlled by the aerial ping-pong tactics which todays rules seem to require that they haven't really learned to run a backline.

I thought seeing the League guys play over there recently that backline on backline, the AB's would get killed by the kiwis in the running/passing aspect that used to be an All Black strength.

If we play well, England will have an huge uphill battle, thats true. Still, I've a feeling that England have it in them to keep us under pressure (within 10 pts) for the middle 40 minutes. Anything besides that will take some good fortune, but England are long overdue to step up.

The biggest thing stopping that is the England personnel as you alluded to.
[/b][/quote]
Does it seem to anyone else, that we are still recovering player losses that should have been well and truley finalised by now?

Since 2007 we lost some important players.

Doug Howlett: He isn't missed too much as NZ has alot of depth in wingers, and Rokocoko's inclusion 2 the Barbarian's side will be interesting. We have Jane, Guildford, Sivivatu, Rokocoko all likley for spots in the RWC 2011, and Ben Smith, Lelia Masaga and Hosea Gear are also in contention.

Byron Kelleher: Perhaps one of the bigger losses, as we still haven't worked out the half back pecking order. It seems Cowan is the prefered option, with Weepu, Ellis and Leonerd all fighting for that spot on the bench.

Anton Oliver: Well backed up with Hore and Mealamu. It seems Hore has got a head start, but who knows by 2011.

Jerry Collins: Most missed player in my opinion. We are now getting desperate to decide who we want to be the staring #6, with Thompson seeming to lack a bit of the phyisicality, however good with rucks. Good combination with McCaw. The other option, Jerome Kaino, seems to me to be a less talented Jerry Collins, big hits, but less work rate then Collins, and perhaps not as phyisical as Collins either.

Carl Hayman: Another huge loss, we seem to have a few new props in Crockett and Franks, however if Hayman came back, our side would be bulstered hugely.

These questions need to be anwsered fairly quickly, as the RWC gets closer, and it seems our forwards still have quite a bit of indecision. I believe when these positional errors are fixed, NZ will return to form, but untill then, every position apart from 1st 5/8t and Openside Flanker, are up for grabs.
 
I cant understand how Henry is still running the shop. That must be the most jaded training environment in world rugby. The fact that the coach decided he needed to freshen it up but still kept the same people was a bit daft. Are New Zealanders happy with Henry? or do you still see Deans as a missed opportunity?
 
England will be slow, but physical. if we are well organised in defence, supporting and the breakdown then we will be close for most of the match. if we aren't we'll be hammered. but if we are the all blacks will still have the edge for most of the match to be a few points ahead, but iimportantly are more likely to get a purple patch, 10-15 mins where they have the pressure and things click. maybe just pressure and penalties, maybe 1 or 2 linebreaks finished off.

England can stay close, but at some point the all blacks will just make those few telling scores to decide the match, whether it's the 5th, 25th or 75th minute, it will happen.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 21 2009, 02:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I cant understand how Henry is still running the shop. That must be the most jaded training environment in world rugby. The fact that the coach decided he needed to freshen it up but still kept the same people was a bit daft. Are New Zealanders happy with Henry? or do you still see Deans as a missed opportunity?[/b]

Deans is a jackass, he was in the All Blacks environment before and he demeaned other members of the coaching staff in front of the players. I'd rather Henry over him.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Nov 21 2009, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Nov 21 2009, 02:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I cant understand how Henry is still running the shop. That must be the most jaded training environment in world rugby. The fact that the coach decided he needed to freshen it up but still kept the same people was a bit daft. Are New Zealanders happy with Henry? or do you still see Deans as a missed opportunity?[/b]

Deans is a jackass, he was in the All Blacks environment before and he demeaned other members of the coaching staff in front of the players. I'd rather Henry over him.
[/b][/quote]
Mitchell & Deans also prematurley ended Cullen's career, and chose Spencer over Mehrtens which was another poor move in my opinion. That being said, despite his squad rebuilding, Deans can hardly bee looked at as the pinicle of success as Australia's coach. I believe Henry 2 still be the better coach. Deans has one formula, and can't adapt to a different way of playing.
 
6 - 6 HT

Could have easily been 6 - 12 but Carter missed two relatively easy (for him) kicks, yet scored from the halfway line, by the touch line :S

Cueto's showing why he should have been 15 all along, great under the high ball, and decent kicking. Our scrums have been pretty poor so far, most of them ending up in a NZ penalty, but apart from that England are playing the best i've seen in a while, good running, decent kicking, and not just kicking to nothing (for the most part at least).

A citing is coming the way of whichever prop it was, of ours, who was just punching that guy in the face in the ruck, yet didn't get carded

I just hope we can keep it up through the 2nd half, and NZ don't come out and try alot harder, as they really really aren't playing well for them
 
ABs beginning to rumble, but England defence pretty firm except for one missed tackle on Carter that almost led to a try on the left.

Borthwick and Shaw have been good at the breakdown, and overall the ABs are being hasseled. I expect ABs to lay siege in the second half. Should be very tense for England supporters.

Poor old wurzles - all that build up, and off he goes after two minutes.
 
The replay of him rolling his ankle looked nasty, he rolled it, then got hit so twisted, i'm surprised his foot didn't come off
 
Not quite the game predicted by others, outside of myself and a few other open-minded forumers.
 
Bah humbug, Cowan in the corner, converted

6 - 16



Great lineout by Shaw/Thompson there!



F*£"%*£$^"*"£% - wilkinson misses a drop goal and chucks away all our hardwork getting to within metres of the try line
 
Of course the predicted 30-40 point drubbing is on the cards........... oh wait.......... no it's not.
 
FT: 6 - 19

Well done to NZ for the win, though i suspect a lot of all black fans will be disappointed with the way that they played today

England played their best match of the AIs today, a lot less kicking, a lot more actual playing of the ball, line breaks and offloads. Croft was more noticeable as well, very nearly getting the try
Greenwood hit the nail on the head when he said England had F'ed up sending Lawes back to Northampton and bringing on Deacon for Shaw, crazy
Disappointing that we missed two chances for tries (Wilkos missed DG, and Haskells pass through the legs from the scrum, straight to Cowan) but ah well, hopefully they can build on this for the 6N and see that not spending 90% of the match kicking actually gets you somewhere
 
England are a bit strange. It's like they're content to do all the grunting, but when it gets them in to a scoring position they chicken out.

That scrum on 62 mins - we said, "They should score from this ... but they won't". They had three good positions in the second half, but each time when the grunting was over and it came to figuring out how to convert to points they preferred to screw it up rather than take it to the ABs.
 

Latest posts

Top