English Union proposes compensation from Unions aggressively pursuing eligibilty rules

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ok we have done being reasonable and you're now being intentionally obtuse and quite frankly a bit of a prick. No it is NOT hypocrisy because we are not doing the thing we want to stop. It may read the same to you but it isn't to anyone else. We use players in our country and do not entice players from abroad with the promise of England caps therefore us opposing such action is NOT hypocritical.

You entice players from abroad with a better offer, we do the same... Cap 'em and they'd stay.

It's only English posters seeing it your way btw. Bruce doesn't like it as he thinks it's unfair on the kids playing in Italy.

 

[die_mole]

You entice players from abroad with a better offer, we do the same... Cap 'em and they'd stay.

It's only English posters seeing it your way btw. Bruce doesn't like it as he thinks it's unfair on the kids playing in Italy.

That's not being a hypocrite....

You can say they are being greedy but being hypocritical they are not.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's not being a hypocrite....

You can say they are being greedy but being hypocritical they are not.

Hypocrisy is claiming to have more Noble beliefs than is the case. I think it falls right under that unless they believe that Irish/Welsh/Scottish clubs or unions should be compensated when English clubs take a player who is out of contract.

The idea that the opportunity of playing international rugby is bad while the opportunity to earn more money isn't when attempting to entice a player to play is hypocrisy. "Aggressive scouting" has been thrown about, when the example of an English club signing an Irish player who'd played no senior project rugby was brought up it's been largely ignored and somehow scouting 18 year olds is worse than scouting 25 year olds. The strange belief that geography is vastly more important than family when considering nationality and the latter should be frowned upon when picking a country to play for screams only adds to the "holier than thou" narrative.

 

[die_mole]

Hypocrisy is claiming to have more Noble beliefs than is the case. I think it falls right under that unless they believe that Irish/Welsh/Scottish clubs or unions should be compensated when English clubs take a player who is out of contract.

The idea that the opportunity of playing international rugby is bad while the opportunity to earn more money isn't when attempting to entice a player to play is hypocrisy. "Aggressive scouting" has been thrown about, when the example of an English club signing an Irish player who'd played no senior project rugby was brought up it's been largely ignored and somehow scouting 18 year olds is worse than scouting 25 year olds. The strange belief that geography is vastly more important than family when considering nationality and the latter should be frowned upon when picking a country to play for screams only adds to the "holier than thou" narrative.

I agree that nationality is a very complicated (and non-tangible) thing...

For me it's that clubs should be reimbursed for the development and usage of their players by international sides.

I think the belief is that England is benefitting from their clubs actions while other countries are influencing their clubs actions.

I really don't know what actions England are taking that you would consider immoral?

 

[higgik]

I don't have a problem with players playing for teams which they have family links with. However when you are actively recruiting players with whom there are no family link then you are in danger of turning national teams into glorified club sides. I'd have the 5 year residency rule together with a rule that you must be a passport holder of the nation you a playing for.

Agree on the residency rule. This should be upgraded to citizenship at least, best to go for grandparents or moving to country prior to 14th birthday, as this would be a loophole countries could use on younger players.

 

[die_mole]

Agree on the residency rule. This should be upgraded to citizenship at least, best to go for grandparents or moving to country prior to 14th birthday, as this would be a loophole countries could use on younger players.

just make the rule that years as professional rugby player don't count towards their residency years

if a guy moves to study in a country or gains non-rugby employment (most likely in a tier 2 nation where he won't be competing with pros for spots) in another country why not let them play for them

 

[higgik]

just make the rule that years as professional rugby player don't count towards their residency years

if a guy moves to study in a country or gains non-rugby employment (most likely in a tier 2 nation where he won't be competing with pros for spots) in another country why not let them play for them

Like it a lot, well done.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You entice players from abroad with a better offer, we do the same... Cap 'em and they'd stay.

There's a difference between clubs and country here though.
In Ireland everything has to go through the IRFU
Here the RFU has zero say in who the clubs sign.
I don't see how you don't see the difference between Wasps signing an out of contract Nathan Hughes and the Scottish Union setting up a department specifically to poach talent from England. They are not comparable in any way.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

There's a difference between clubs and country here though.
In Ireland everything has to go through the IRFU
Here the RFU has zero say in who the clubs sign.
I don't see how you don't see the difference between Wasps signing an out of contract Nathan Hughes and the Scottish Union setting up a department specifically to poach talent from England. They are not comparable in any way.

It is literally the same thing, the RFU might not be doing it themselves but they're happy to benefit from it when the clubs on their doorstep do and then throw shade at other unions for doing it. If they want compensated for this, or for this to stop, then they should compensate the Rabbitohs and Leinster for Te'o, the Blues for Hughes etc... Instead they reap the benefits hiding under the excuse of "well we don't control our clubs and are just playing by the rules", the SRU are playing by the rules here and not doing anything that the RFU haven't and won't continue to benefit from by English clubs doing it and it's wrong for some reason. I'd imagine the only thing stopping the RFU from doing it is the lack of opportunity too, if there were enough English moving to Scotland, Wales or Ireland they'd be at it but they already have a more kids to scout in England than those three countries combined. BREXIT might see a few Irish kids playing for England because their parents moved to Dublin along with their big firm (and priced a slightly older Alpha Bro out of the ******* market forcing him to move to some hole in Kildare with his sexy wife to be, ********)

@themole25 I don't think the RFU are doing anything immoral, I don't think anyone is doing anything immoral, it's the accusations that they are that give rise to hypocrisy in my opinion. Do you have any idea on how to implement clubs being reimbursed by the international sides? Would you not consider the players becoming better as result of exposure to international rugby (exclude France for the most part) enough or is it solely in the case of when a player leaves the club and plays international rugby?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've said all I can and had done some time ago. I wasn't as clear and concise as I'd have liked to have been for a few reasons, passion for the subject and stress (unrelated) being up there. Quick recap: losing some immigrants from countries using their diaspora is part of the cycle of benefitting from a large immigrant population and the RFU benefitting from their clubs signing an English qualified or "project", for lack of a better word, player is no different from the unions benefitting from doing it, it's just an extra insignificant step. The unions being able to target it is just where that system is better. Poaching isn't a real thing in professional sports when ultimately it's the decision of the player to consider what's best for him. Losing a guy to a better offer is business, English clubs have more money, Union clubs have, at times, the heightened opportunity of international rugby to use as bargaining chips, swings and roundabouts. The unions aren't evil Pied Piper figures for what they're doing, they're taking advantage of rules on nationality that are far from unfair... And Eoin O'Farrell is only good because of his genetics.

 

[die_mole]

i do have an idea but it would require going more into the international game and i didn't want to ruin the thread by being wildly tangential

basically i think all professional leagues, tier one and tier two nations, and the players need to come together and hash out an agreement for the good of the game. what I would like to see:

1. what players get paid for an international match is standardized and not left for union. Tier 1 is one fee. T1vsT2 is another and T2vsT2 is another. This would hopefully decrease players being poached for financial reasons.

2. Have players get a certain amount of money for developing players for an international side and another fee for having a player selected for the international side. This is more to encourage teams to develop their own players than relying on transfers. It should increase the amount of money clubs pour into academies since there is now an even greater financial incentive.

3. Playing professional rugby shouldn't count as residency years.

I don't have a problem with guys in England (or any country really) going to play for their grandparents country and those countries would be stupid to not have scouts looking for those eligible players. I am also in the camp of wanting to see all the best players playing in one (i could live with two) competitions so I would encourage countries to have their best players play in outside competitions and to pick players from those competitions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It is literally the same thing, the RFU might not be doing it themselves but they're happy to benefit from it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this then,
Peace out ✌

 

[ratsapprentice]

i'm waiting for the reimbursement for the pre-natal care that the mothers of ronan o'gara and sam underhill received here

You know full well they would have payed through the nose for it!

Poor Sammy probably still has a codeine addiction, poor sod...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You entice players from abroad with a better offer, we do the same... Cap 'em and they'd stay.

It's only English posters seeing it your way btw. Bruce doesn't like it as he thinks it's unfair on the kids playing in Italy.

Except the RFU have no part in what the clubs independently decide to do. Bruce doesn't like it but he's not the one accusing the English of hypocrisy, only you are. Bruce also said he supports the English on this so it's actually only you who thinks it's hypocritical. Please never become a foreign secretary or anything as you don't appear to properly understand how these things called "countries" work. However you've obviously decided we are hypocrites without understand what hypocrite means and no amount of showing you this is going to change your mind.

 

[Da Grappla]

I like England being England and Argentina being Argentina

Only the latter remains true to its roots

(The same goes for every other team)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Except the RFU have no part in what the clubs independently decide to do. Bruce doesn't like it but he's not the one accusing the English of hypocrisy, only you are. Bruce also said he supports the English on this so it's actually only you who thinks it's hypocritical. Please never become a foreign secretary or anything as you don't appear to properly understand how these things called "countries" work. However you've obviously decided we are hypocrites without understand what hypocrite means and no amount of showing you this is going to change your mind.

Alright, I'm dragged back in because there's so much wrong with this post.

Those who seek equity must do so with clean hands - Legal concept prevalent in English and Irish law. A brief explanation would be that those seeking an equitable remedy in court, such as an injunction stopping a person or organisation from doing something, must act equitably themselves, considering the RFU benefit from the exact same practice as the SRU/IRFU, albeit with the thin veil of letting English clubs do the dirty work for them, if they were to seek equity a court would simply point to Ben Te'o, Nathan Hughes etc... and would qualify the RFU for having rather dirty hands. I could give you a history lesson on Equity, its evolution from the Court of Chancery and how its generally seen as the most fair and moral branch of law but I reckon, if this post doesn't do it and I doubt it will, it wouldn't stop you're belief that English **** don't stink or stop you throwing around insults. "Those who seek equity must do equity would likely quash their claim too!

If we go back to what you said that made me bring up Bruce which was "It may read the same to you but it isn't to anyone else." Bruce clarified his support for the English was due to not wanting young fellas in Scotland getting ousted by these "blow ins" that's not in agreement with your point, he actually supported the residency rule, I've also got a number of "upvotes" on my comments which would further disprove this point.


Country of birth ≠ Nationality.


The RFU believe they're better than this carry on while benefiting from it themselves, if that's not hypocrisy I don't know what is, maybe check your dictionary because mine is pretty spot on and "No it is NOT hypocrisy because we are not doing the thing we want to stop" is not the definition of the word. (I'd also like to point you back towards that beauty of a legal paragraph which ties in fantastically to that sentence!) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hypocrisy - Just in case.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

You entice players from abroad with a better offer, we do the same... Cap 'em and they'd stay.

It's only English posters seeing it your way btw. Bruce doesn't like it as he thinks it's unfair on the kids playing in Italy.

"Won't someone please think of the children!"

To clarify further. I think if a union specifically employs people whose sole job is to sift foreign players at different age groups, identify those with a Scottish grandparent, approach them and entice with incentives, then they have crossed a line - and this is what is prompting the response by the English union.

I don't have enough knowledge to know what unions do that and which ones don't so I'll sit out any finger pointing (and that wasn't the intention of my OP, other than to point at Scotland). But I find it embarassing, sad and ultimately counterproductive for a Tier 1 nation with a rich heritage in the sport to engage in such shennanigans.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Alright, I'm dragged back in because there's so much wrong with this post.

Those who seek equity must do so with clean hands - Legal concept prevalent in English and Irish law. A brief explanation would be that those seeking an equitable remedy in court, such as an injunction stopping a person or organisation from doing something, must act equitably themselves, considering the RFU benefit from the exact same practice as the SRU/IRFU, albeit with the thin veil of letting English clubs do the dirty work for them, if they were to seek equity a court would simply point to Ben Te'o, Nathan Hughes etc... and would qualify the RFU for having rather dirty hands. I could give you a history lesson on Equity, its evolution from the Court of Chancery and how its generally seen as the most fair and moral branch of law but I reckon, if this post doesn't do it and I doubt it will, it wouldn't stop you're belief that English **** don't stink or stop you throwing around insults. "Those who seek equity must do equity would likely quash their claim too!

If we go back to what you said that made me bring up Bruce which was "It may read the same to you but it isn't to anyone else." Bruce clarified his support for the English was due to not wanting young fellas in Scotland getting ousted by these "blow ins" that's not in agreement with your point, he actually supported the residency rule, I've also got a number of "upvotes" on my comments which would further disprove this point.


Country of birth ≠ Nationality.


The RFU believe they're better than this carry on while benefiting from it themselves, if that's not hypocrisy I don't know what is, maybe check your dictionary because mine is pretty spot on and "No it is NOT hypocrisy because we are not doing the thing we want to stop" is not the definition of the word. (I'd also like to point you back towards that beauty of a legal paragraph which ties in fantastically to that sentence!) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hypocrisy - Just in case.

Your own defition of hypocrisy there still fails becuase for the millionth ******* time we are not sending scouts abroad with the offer of England caps to entice them into England and considering that is what we are specifically opposing, there is no hypocrisy. We don't believe it is right to do that and we don't do it. Saying the clubs do it is a different matter because they don't follow the same ******* rules as international teams. You got that?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Your own defition of hypocrisy there still fails becuase for the millionth ******* time we are not sending scouts abroad with the offer of England caps to entice them into England and considering that is what we are specifically opposing, there is no hypocrisy. We don't believe it is right to do that and we don't do it. Saying the clubs do it is a different matter because they don't follow the same ******* rules as international teams. You got that?

You almost understand words.

 

[Car]

This November Germany will be dishing out 11 new caps, primarily to players qualifying through parentage. I agree residency is the bigger factor but I am concerned that international sport is fundamentally undermined if you have teams filled with players who have never set foot in the country they represent. It is also destructive in terms of disincentivising spreading the game domestically, getting rugby balls in kids hands and nurturing your own talent.

Some of those players actually do have strong ties to Germany or even live here (they partly talked about it during yesterday's match here).

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Some of those players actually do have strong ties to Germany or even live here (they partly talked about it during yesterday's match here).

Well, I am glad to hear that. And as others said above newer rugby playing nations (at least in a professional sense) have far more of an excuse to adopt players on residency and parentage grounds as they won't yet have a supply of quality home developers players of the necessary level. I used Germany as an example as they have been quite open about asking foreign players to check their passports and family trees.