EOYT: Scotland v AIG All Blacks, 11/11/2012

[j'nuh]

Adam Thomson may have been cited, but it is actually Tamati Ellison who should be cited and banned for a few weeks for attempting to do a Callum Clark style arm twist on Scotland prop Ryan Grant.

A few weeks? Ban him for a year, see if he dares to do it again.

Has he been cited? If not, could he completely get away with this?

EDIT: on second thoughts, it looks like he could be trying to pin Grant to the floor with his elbow, and I don't think he tries to hyperextend Grant's arm? It's hard to tell. Did Grant provoke him, because I've read elsewhere that he did?

 

[TrueSlawter]

Regardless grant was getting up and he grabs him to pin him down which potentially could've been nasty (depending on which way his arm was) in this case it was lucky.. he'd be lucky if he doesnt get banned imo.

 

[GHUNIT50]

Doubt Ellison is going to be getting much playing time anyway, ABs said that it was an experimental squad and Nonu's relatively young.

 

[Larksea]

almost laughable, you should see what McCaw gets on a weekly basis in super rugby and Tri-nations/championship where the offenders basically get away with it all. That's nothing.

don't really want to wade into the Cruden for manuatu and Barrett for naki debate, sure Barrett isn't a one man wonder for the naki but for my 2c I'd say that the rise of the turbos isn't a one man job either. Renee is obviously a very good coach and he built a forward pack that punched well above it's weight, without having star players they were I think the best pack that performed as a unit in NZ. And while initially Cruden gained all the media the one guy that slid under the radar at the time was Aaron Smith, I think he played a massive part and is now only a couple of years later one of if not the best halfback in the world.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Adam Thomson may have been cited, but it is actually Tamati Ellison who should be cited and banned for a few weeks for attempting to do a Callum Clark style arm twist on Scotland prop Ryan Grant.

it looks to me as if Clark was the ball carrier and Ellison the tackler, Clark tried to stand up and Ellison doesn't realize he's lost the ball so tries to "tackle" again, poor technique though, could have been very dangerous</SPAN></SPAN>

 

[Draggs]

Will we see the chosen one at outside centre again?
It has been Conrad Smith and intermittently Richard Kahui for the past few seasons, so having another would be excellent for the AIGs.

 

[admartian]

Adam Thomson may have been cited, but it is actually Tamati Ellison who should be cited and banned for a few weeks for attempting to do a Callum Clark style arm twist on Scotland prop Ryan Grant.

EDIT: on second thoughts, it looks like he could be trying to pin Grant to the floor with his elbow, and I don't think he tries to hyper-extend Grant's arm? It's hard to tell. Did Grant provoke him, because I've read elsewhere that he did?

I can't tell regarding intent, but it doesn't need to be hyper-extended to be harmful.

Actually from the angle he's in; that manoeuvre is mainly associated to 'pop' the shoulder - usually called an 'kimura' or an 'omoplata (if using the legs to break).

almost laughable, you should see what McCaw gets on a weekly basis in super rugby and Tri-nations/championship where the offenders basically get away with it all. That's nothing.

Absolutely this.

Wouldn't excuse him if it was intended maliciously rather than just poor form. But McCaw at International and SR level, gets this multiple times per week.

He should be lucky for not getting a flying elbow to the face or having his eyes almost ripped out.

 

[donmcdazzle]

almost laughable, you should see what McCaw gets on a weekly basis in super rugby and Tri-nations/championship where the offenders basically get away with it all. That's nothing.

don't really want to wade into the Cruden for manuatu and Barrett for naki debate, sure Barrett isn't a one man wonder for the naki but for my 2c I'd say that the rise of the turbos isn't a one man job either. Renee is obviously a very good coach and he built a forward pack that punched well above it's weight, without having star players they were I think the best pack that performed as a unit in NZ. And while initially Cruden gained all the media the one guy that slid under the radar at the time was Aaron Smith, I think he played a massive part and is now only a couple of years later one of if not the best halfback in the world.

Except that Smith was shocking for his first season in the Turbos and took right up until the end of last season to start becoming the player he is now. People in the stands used to scream at him to clear the ball. He only started the real quick delivery thing last year, and he was still a bit patchy for the Turbos that season (got better as the season went on). Smith has played his best for the highlanders and the AB's, he was never that dominant for the Turbos. Cruden got ITM player of the season and led us to a final that could have gone either way. I've watched both of them basically every season they've played for the Turbos, and nobody will convince me (or any other Turbos die hard) otherwise that Cruden was the most important player in that team. You haven't watched enough of them and I feel like you're using the fact Smith is awesome now and Rennie won the Super 15 ***le, and drawn a straight line to them being hugely important in the Turbos run that season, ignoring the fact Cruden was clearly the main man.

Rennie I will say is a great coach and knows how to maximise everyone's ability.

 

[Darwin]

Will we see the chosen one at outside centre again?
It has been Conrad Smith and intermittently Richard Kahui for the past few seasons, so having another would be excellent for the AIGs.

Unfortunately He has broken a bone in his cheek, so looks to be out for a few weeks (possibly the whole tour). Likewise Ellison is struggling with a damaged ligament in his foot. If one (or both) are rule out of the tour it will be interesting to see who they look to bring in. The obvious contenders in the midfield (to me) are Crotty, Bateman, and Fruean - none really standout as international quality players though IMO. Personally I would go for Crotty - I quite like Batman too, but I don't think he has the physicality required for test rugby. It sounds like Dagg is fully fit so I think they have plenty off fullback cover in the squad even if Smith and/or Ellison were ruled out (with Barrett and Jane more than capable there), though they could bring in someone like Andre Taylor who is already in Europe with the Maori side.

There is a bit of speculation as to what they will do if Thomson is ruled out of the tour through suspension. The two names being thrown around are George Whitelock and Jarrad Hoeata, though neither really inspire me as test players. I have heard the likes of Luke Whitelock, Ardie Savea, and Luatua mentioned, but I don't think any of them is ready for test rugby yet. Personally I would go for Luke Braid, but for some reason the AB's selectors don't seem to be a big fan of his.

 

[Helmy]

I'm not even sure what Ellison is trying to do there? Seems like a strange way to try and intentionally injure player, but even stranger way to stay within the laws of rugby...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Unfortunately He has broken a bone in his cheek, so looks to be out for a few weeks (possibly the whole tour). Likewise Ellison is struggling with a damaged ligament in his foot. If one (or both) are rule out of the tour it will be interesting to see who they look to bring in. The obvious contenders in the midfield (to me) are Crotty, Bateman, and Fruean - none really standout as international quality players though IMO. Personally I would go for Crotty - I quite like Batman too, but I don't think he has the physicality required for test rugby. It sounds like Dagg is fully fit so I think they have plenty off fullback cover in the squad even if Smith and/or Ellison were ruled out (with Barrett and Jane more than capable there), though they could bring in someone like Andre Taylor who is already in Europe with the Maori side.

There is a bit of speculation as to what they will do if Thomson is ruled out of the tour through suspension. The two names being thrown around are George Whitelock and Jarrad Hoeata, though neither really inspire me as test players. I have heard the likes of Luke Whitelock, Ardie Savea, and Luatua mentioned, but I don't think any of them is ready for test rugby yet. Personally I would go for Luke Braid, but for some reason the AB's selectors don't seem to be a big fan of his.

forgetting for a second he could just have his hand over his cheek and heal it of course

Im going to say it again, move Carter out one and let Barrett get a full run, we're happy to try and find depth/blood new players in every position except openside and first five

 

[admartian]

Looking at the ratings from the NZHerald yesterday, didn't seem like Rattue thought much of Ben Smith's performance...

 

[Larksea]

Rattue is an absolute tosser a total waste of oxygen, his ratings fricken useless.

 

[nickdnz]

Adam Thomson may have been cited, but it is actually Tamati Ellison who should be cited and banned for a few weeks for attempting to do a Callum Clark style arm twist on Scotland prop Ryan Grant.

Doesn't look good. From watching alot of Tamati Ellison I've never seen him do anything remotely dirty so it's tempting from a NZ perspective to wave it off. But to be honest, whether it was reckless or malicious - I'd be pretty ****** off if it happened to Richie McCaw, so in my opinion he should cop a ban for it. NZ has a pretty good reputation as not a dirty side, and I'd rather these things go punished and made an example of than ruin our reputation. I was once in a rolling mall last season and some little **** tried to twist my arm over his sholder and break it, one of the angriest I've ever been in a game. Got player of the match though, so was pretty happy by the end.

Anyone see Strokosch's comment over Adam Thompsons citing? I saw on twitter that he said 'Hope he doesn't get too much of a ban, I was lying all over the ball...'

Only in Rugby

Classy comment from Strokosch to be honest. That sort of stuff may help Thomson in the disciplinary hearing - and it shows pretty good character from Strokosch.

Unfortunately He has broken a bone in his cheek, so looks to be out for a few weeks (possibly the whole tour). Likewise Ellison is struggling with a damaged ligament in his foot. If one (or both) are rule out of the tour it will be interesting to see who they look to bring in. The obvious contenders in the midfield (to me) are Crotty, Bateman, and Fruean - none really standout as international quality players though IMO. Personally I would go for Crotty - I quite like Batman too, but I don't think he has the physicality required for test rugby. It sounds like Dagg is fully fit so I think they have plenty off fullback cover in the squad even if Smith and/or Ellison were ruled out (with Barrett and Jane more than capable there), though they could bring in someone like Andre Taylor who is already in Europe with the Maori side.

There is a bit of speculation as to what they will do if Thomson is ruled out of the tour through suspension. The two names being thrown around are George Whitelock and Jarrad Hoeata, though neither really inspire me as test players. I have heard the likes of Luke Whitelock, Ardie Savea, and Luatua mentioned, but I don't think any of them is ready for test rugby yet. Personally I would go for Luke Braid, but for some reason the AB's selectors don't seem to be a big fan of his.

If Ellison or Ben Smith are to be replaced, I'm certainly a big fan of Andre Taylor who is on tour as you mentioned. His workrate is sometimes a bit in question (can go missing as an impact player in big games), but I have no criticism at all of either his attack when he is firing (in my opinion the best attacking fullback in the country) or his defence which I thought was extremely good for the Canes this season. That being said if Dagg is fit then I can't see him being brought in.

In terms of midfield replacements I'd actually go with either Bateman or Fruean (just to be difficult). Crotty is hard working and extremely safe but I don't see him having any potential as a test player. Bateman on the other hand I actually think is both very safe, and has some pretty under-rated skills. Not the hardest running 2nd 5/8th but I thought his quick hands and vision were crucial to the Hurricanes this season. Has a solid kicking game as well. He'd be my first choice. Robbie Fruean on the otherhand I wouldn't mind seeing there for the same reason I didn't mind Sioane Luakai getting game time (although I did live to regret it). Obviously a liability in defense, but on x-factor there isn't many more exciting players. Probably wouldn't get much game time if any but I think it would be a shame if he never played for the AB's.

Between George Whitelock and Hoeata I'd go for Hoeata. Something Taine Randell mentioned on ReUnion was that Hoeata would compliment this AB team nicely as quite a tight blindside, which I have to agree with. Still not convinced by any of our blindsides to play the sort of role Kaino played, especially when it comes to clearing rucks, which is an area Hoeata is pretty good at. He hits hard in the tackles as well. We also need an enforcer in the squad in my opinion, which Kaino and especially Brad Thorn played to a tee, but Hoeata has a habbit of playing the villian more than I'd be comfortable with. George Whitelock I just don't rate, if I was going for a replacement in George Whitelock's mold I'd go for (like you) Luke Braid, who is essentially George Whitelock but 100x better. Would be very suprised if any of the other looseforwards mentioned stood a chance at getting in the AB's. Ardie Savea isn't big enough to fill in for Thomson at blindside, Luke Whitelock still hasn't convinced me he's ever going to be more than a solid Super Rugby player and Luatua has heaps of potential in the role, but as you said is still very green.

 

[Darwin]

In terms of midfield replacements I'd actually go with either Bateman or Fruean (just to be difficult). Crotty is hard working and extremely safe but I don't see him having any potential as a test player. Bateman on the other hand I actually think is both very safe, and has some pretty under-rated skills. Not the hardest running 2nd 5/8th but I thought his quick hands and vision were crucial to the Hurricanes this season. Has a solid kicking game as well. He'd be my first choice. Robbie Fruean on the otherhand I wouldn't mind seeing there for the same reason I didn't mind Sioane Luakai getting game time (although I did live to regret it). Obviously a liability in defense, but on x-factor there isn't many more exciting players. Probably wouldn't get much game time if any but I think it would be a shame if he never played for the AB's.

While I do have some time for Bateman, I think his lack of size/physicality would be a major issue at test level. While he is usually pretty secure in defense he can at times struggle to bring down larger players quickly - I think he would really struggle to contain the likes of Roberts/Tuilagi (or any number of other giant international midfield backs). While Crotty may not be the biggest midfield back in the country he would have 5-10 kgs on Bateman, and is a stronger defender in my opinion. Like you I really like Bateman's skillset - he would be they best passing 12 in the country by a mile for me, has an intelligent kicking game, and seems to read the game well. Unfortunately for Bateman these days at international level these skills aren't nearly as useful for a midfield back as they have been in the past. I'm not convinced that Crotty necessarily has the ability to step-up to test level either, but I think he would do a solid fill-in job, and is less likely to be exploited than the likes of Bateman and Fruean.

While I could see the logic behind including Fruean (as he has by far the most natural ability of any of the main options) I think he has actually gone backwards this season.

Between George Whitelock and Hoeata I'd go for Hoeata. Something Taine Randell mentioned on ReUnion was that Hoeata would compliment this AB team nicely as quite a tight blindside, which I have to agree with. Still not convinced by any of our blindsides to play the sort of role Kaino played, especially when it comes to clearing rucks, which is an area Hoeata is pretty good at. He hits hard in the tackles as well. We also need an enforcer in the squad in my opinion, which Kaino and especially Brad Thorn played to a tee, but Hoeata has a habbit of playing the villian more than I'd be comfortable with. George Whitelock I just don't rate, if I was going for a replacement in George Whitelock's mold I'd go for (like you) Luke Braid, who is essentially George Whitelock but 100x better. Would be very suprised if any of the other looseforwards mentioned stood a chance at getting in the AB's. Ardie Savea isn't big enough to fill in for Thomson at blindside, Luke Whitelock still hasn't convinced me he's ever going to be more than a solid Super Rugby player and Luatua has heaps of potential in the role, but as you said is still very green.

Personally I wouldn't have Hoeata anywhere near the AB's side. To me he is an OK player at Super Rugby level - nothing more - indeed Bekhuis and Crosswell were my preferred locking combination at the Highlanders last season. He is good at the lineout (especially if he is used as loosie), and hits a few rucks, but is completely ineffective with ball in hand, is a bit hit and miss on defense, and still has serious discipline issues as you mention. I see he got sent off in the last Maori match, though I have no idea what it was for so it may not be relevant. While I agree that the AB's lack an enforcer I don't think Hoeata is the right man to fulfill that role. To me he spends the the game trying to act like he is the toughest player on the park when he would be far better off actually playing some rugby. This video really sums up Hoeata to me:

He gets smashed by Levi then spends the rest of the game looking for a fight - you only see a couple of occasions on the video, but there were 4-5 other times he tried to pick a fight after a breakdown during that match that I recall. In the end he is very lucky not to be sent off for a couple of swinging arms to Levi's head.....

In terms of AB's options, I do agree that George Whitelock isn't the solution either. It has been good this season to see his running game a lot more for the Crusaders / Canterbury, as previously he was completely ineffective in this area. He may not be a Kaino, Vito, or Messam in this regard, but he showed this season that he is capable of breaking the odd tackle and creating some good go-forward ball. My biggest issue with Whitelock is that he concedes far too many penalties at the breakdown - an average of about 2 per game. This would be fine if he was actually slowing down/stealing the opposition ball at the breakdown, but most of the time it is for silly offenses he should know better than to commit.

 

[nickdnz]

While I do have some time for Bateman, I think his lack of size/physicality would be a major issue at test level. While he is usually pretty secure in defense he can at times struggle to bring down larger players quickly - I think he would really struggle to contain the likes of Roberts/Tuilagi (or any number of other giant international midfield backs). While Crotty may not be the biggest midfield back in the country he would have 5-10 kgs on Bateman, and is a stronger defender in my opinion. Like you I really like Bateman's skillset - he would be they best passing 12 in the country by a mile for me, has an intelligent kicking game, and seems to read the game well. Unfortunately for Bateman these days at international level these skills aren't nearly as useful for a midfield back as they have been in the past. I'm not convinced that Crotty necessarily has the ability to step-up to test level either, but I think he would do a solid fill-in job, and is less likely to be exploited than the likes of Bateman and Fruean.

While I could see the logic behind including Fruean (as he has by far the most natural ability of any of the main options) I think he has actually gone backwards this season.



Personally I wouldn't have Hoeata anywhere near the AB's side. To me he is an OK player at Super Rugby level - nothing more - indeed Bekhuis and Crosswell were my preferred locking combination at the Highlanders last season. He is good at the lineout (especially if he is used as loosie), and hits a few rucks, but is completely ineffective with ball in hand, is a bit hit and miss on defense, and still has serious discipline issues as you mention. I see he got sent off in the last Maori match, though I have no idea what it was for so it may not be relevant. While I agree that the AB's lack an enforcer I don't think Hoeata is the right man to fulfill that role. To me he spends the the game trying to act like he is the toughest player on the park when he would be far better off actually playing some rugby. This video really sums up Hoeata to me:

He gets smashed by Levi then spends the rest of the game looking for a fight - you only see a couple of occasions on the video, but there were 4-5 other times he tried to pick a fight after a breakdown during that match that I recall. In the end he is very lucky not to be sent off for a couple of swinging arms to Levi's head.....

In terms of AB's options, I do agree that George Whitelock isn't the solution either. It has been good this season to see his running game a lot more for the Crusaders / Canterbury, as previously he was completely ineffective in this area. He may not be a Kaino, Vito, or Messam in this regard, but he showed this season that he is capable of breaking the odd tackle and creating some good go-forward ball. My biggest issue with Whitelock is that he concedes far too many penalties at the breakdown - an average of about 2 per game. This would be fine if he was actually slowing down/stealing the opposition ball at the breakdown, but most of the time it is for silly offenses he should know better than to commit.

Have to agree your assessment on Hoeata. I do prefer him as a blindside than a lock (in part because he lacks size). He is a thug by most regards and cannot carry a ball effectively (although as you mentioned our other loosies do that well). The problem is I still feel we're short on a very physical blindside (although Messam's been the best there this season, I still don't think he offers enough grunt), but I don't know where we turn to to find one who is ready.

On Whitelock - his breakdown penalties aren't a new problem either. He hasn't corrected it since like 2009. There is just no area he excells in to me. He's not great at the breakdown (not a genuine fetcher and often gets penalised), not an especially effective ball carrier compared to most looseforwards in the country, and doesn't offer all that much physicality. He's not terrible in many areas either, I just don't see what he really offers. Braid on the other hand is a pretty decent fetcher, good tackler and suprisingly strong ball carrier who can play all three looseforward positions.

On Fruean - I thought he actually looked a little safer in the ITM Cup this season than usual (although always has been a flat-track bully). I'm not sure how much Fruean's form in the Super Rugby has to do with not having SBW on the insided with those deft offloads. I also don't think Crotty is the most creative inside centre option, so he certainly wasn't as effective in that regard. I do agree though that especially on defense he took a backward step.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think any player that comes in will be a short term thing - probably won't even get a cap with 5 other loosies in the squad. Midfield is slightly different, but I'd prefer Bateman as a temp fix.

 

[donmcdazzle]

On Whitelock - his breakdown penalties aren't a new problem either. He hasn't corrected it since like 2009. There is just no area he excells in to me. He's not great at the breakdown (not a genuine fetcher and often gets penalised), not an especially effective ball carrier compared to most looseforwards in the country, and doesn't offer all that much physicality. He's not terrible in many areas either, I just don't see what he really offers. Braid on the other hand is a pretty decent fetcher, good tackler and suprisingly strong ball carrier who can play all three looseforward positions.

You could also be talking about Luke and Adam Whitelock with these comments. Wouldn't have George Whitelock anywhere near the AB's. He is one paced to me with no explosiveness and doesn't have the grunt to make up for it.