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EOYT: Scotland v AIG All Blacks, 11/11/2012

You and I have known that for years - it has just taken everyone else a while to realize this ;)

Chris Rattue of the New Zealand Herald named him in his "worst All Black XV of Henry's reign".

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10720473

14.) BEN SMITH
The renaissance man according to southerners. Have to take their word for it, since my devotion to Super rugby doesn't often extend to watching the Highlanders. Looked fairly ordinary in his All Black stint compared with the Sivivatus of this world. As for being Ben Smith - All Black wings need handles like Josevata, Hosea, Rico, Rene, Rudi, Cory, Sitiveni, Zac, Israel, Jonah.

Call it the Engelbert Humperdinck effect. Do you think Sonny Bill Williams would be Sonny Bill Williams if he wasn't Sonny Bill Williams? Come on. Try Benny Boy Smith-Wesson and just watch your career take off.
 
Cruden has had a fantastic year but IMO Barret has been right with him and IMO actually done things beyond Cruden, either way Barrett is well ahead of where Cruden was at the same age.

One thing about Cruden though is that he has a great mind and character, and I get the feeling that he will realize every bit of his potential, which you could say he is doing right now and has done for the chiefs this year.

Though I think Barrett clearly has more potential and natural ability, is he as likely to realize all of it? Maybe, maybe not. He's pretty laid back, he's a vegetarian and deeply religious, kinda one of the boys. Does he have the drive and single minded focus to be the best like Cruden or Carter have?

ok thats deep, need to go outside.
 
Chris Rattue of the New Zealand Herald named him in his "worst All Black XV of Henry's reign".

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10720473

I think Ben Smith's entry was a bit tongue in cheek, especially when looking at the name thing.

Cruden has had a fantastic year but IMO Barret has been right with him and IMO actually done things beyond Cruden, either way Barrett is well ahead of where Cruden was at the same age.
One thing about Cruden though is that he has a great mind and character, and I get the feeling that he will realize every bit of his potential, which you could say he is doing right now and has done for the chiefs this year.

Though I think Barrett clearly has more potential and natural ability, is he as likely to realize all of it? Maybe, maybe not. He's pretty laid back, he's a vegetarian and deeply religious, kinda one of the boys. Does he have the drive and single minded focus to be the best like Cruden or Carter have?

ok thats deep, need to go outside.

********. Barrett's ahead of where Cruden was at Barrett's age, sure, but Cruden has been a far better player this year. You can't be serious??
 
I am a huge fan of Barrett - he is probably my favourite player at the moment. I have been since I first saw him play for Taranaki. He has looked assured, so far, for the All Blacks. At this early stage, this is a great sign. However, Cruden has had a great season and Barrett isn't really that close at all. Cruden has helped lead the Chiefs to their first SupeRugby ***le and had a brilliant game (till he was injured) against Ireland. He also performed very well under pressure in a RWC semi-final. Barrett has not yet achieved anything close to this.

I don't understand why Cruden isn't rated more highly. We had it last year where everyone wanted Colin Slade selected for the RWC squad, despite the fact he hadn't played all season. This is after Cruden played quite well (in the last few weeks, when he was actually selected) with tackling, goal-kicking and attacking stats that were better than any other NZ 10 (aside from Dan Carter). I think people were still talking about how he should switch to halfback, at that stage (perhaps only a few, though).

I do expect Barrett to overtake Cruden eventually. He is so composed and he looks like he has a lot of time when he has the ball. He truly is a classy player, but I think he definitely needs to show a bit more at either SupeRugby or All Black level before this happens. How great is this, though? Even if we lose Dan, I think our first-five stocks are looking fairly strong for the next RWC. Cruden's ability to control the game will only get better, with all the time he is getting at the Chiefs (and Wayne Smith being there isn't bad, either). I believe that game time is more important at first-five than any other position - it takes a bit of time to learn how to control matches. This could be why players like Colin Slade and Brett never fulfilled their potential (Slade still could, though). So it is great so see guys like Barrett and Cruden starting and performing at this early stage or their career.
 
Also, Barrett's impact on Taranaki is nothing like Cruden's impact on Manawatu - although I guess this isn't exactly fair as Manawatu have also lost Rennie and Smith.
 
Prior to Barrett Taranaki were languishing around teams now playing in the Championship. Since Barrett we've held the Shield for a time and came close to beating Canterbury in the semi-finals of the Premiership. The last time I remember Taranaki looking that good a team was when we had Brock James at the helm, another good first five for us during his stay. It's been a couple of years since I spray painted white overalls green, put a bucket on my head and shouted 'TURBOOOSSS' for eighty minutes, but I just don't recall Cruden having as immediate an impact as Barrett. I can't deny Cruden has been exceptional this year, and was the same for Manawatu last year, I was in agreement with many that he should have been ahead of Slade in the WC, but that's not the comparison I'm trying to make.

No doubt Cruden has become a much better player, but it's certainly taken him a couple of years to live up to the hype. Even during his first couple of seasons with Manawatu he was a bit of a mixed bag, especially with his goal kicking. Against Argentina in Wellington the All Blacks needed a first five to pull the strings with the boot for field position, but it wasn't there. He was by no means shocking, but he admitted himself after the game that he could have done better. Playing for the Hurricanes I wanted him to be successful as anyone, and again, there were moments of brilliance, but just as many moments of frustration. I was gutted and annoyed when he signed with the Chiefs having just started to show that promise and I do wonder if the 'Canes would have done better or worse with him this year, but that's all relative. You could just as easily ask would Barrett have done as well with Weepu inside him and Nonu outside him, or would he have shirked the workload and let them take the limelight?

The difference I am trying to point out is that Barrett has looked more assured in the early stages of his career than Cruden did. There will always be room for improvement (which is the same still for Cruden), but Barrett already has the whole set of skills required for a first five, as well as raw talent. In my opinion, Cruden had the raw talent but has worked hard (and succeeded in) applying more structure to his game, no doubt helped by being in the All Black environment. In theory, Barrett should surpass Cruden in the near future if given the same treatment. Of course, I can't say that he will; maybe he's already reached his potential, but as he's only twenty-one, I doubt it.

I'm not even going to deny the bias of these opinions as a Taranaki and Hurricanes fan. Just know that I supported Cruden as a Turbo and a 'Cane, too.
 
^ I don't think Barrett played against Canterbury. He didn't play much ITM Cup after TRC started, being held onto by the ABs as the back up No. 10.

That said, he was immense for Taranaki before that, though I don't really know how Taranaki was before he came along.
 
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He didn't play against them in the round robin, but he was there in the semi-final.
 
Prior to Barrett Taranaki were languishing around teams now playing in the Championship. Since Barrett we've held the Shield for a time and came close to beating Canterbury in the semi-finals of the Premiership. The last time I remember Taranaki looking that good a team was when we had Brock James at the helm, another good first five for us during his stay. It's been a couple of years since I spray painted white overalls green, put a bucket on my head and shouted 'TURBOOOSSS' for eighty minutes, but I just don't recall Cruden having as immediate an impact as Barrett. I can't deny Cruden has been exceptional this year, and was the same for Manawatu last year, I was in agreement with many that he should have been ahead of Slade in the WC, but that's not the comparison I'm trying to make.

No doubt Cruden has become a much better player, but it's certainly taken him a couple of years to live up to the hype. Even during his first couple of seasons with Manawatu he was a bit of a mixed bag, especially with his goal kicking. Against Argentina in Wellington the All Blacks needed a first five to pull the strings with the boot for field position, but it wasn't there. He was by no means shocking, but he admitted himself after the game that he could have done better. Playing for the Hurricanes I wanted him to be successful as anyone, and again, there were moments of brilliance, but just as many moments of frustration. I was gutted and annoyed when he signed with the Chiefs having just started to show that promise and I do wonder if the 'Canes would have done better or worse with him this year, but that's all relative. You could just as easily ask would Barrett have done as well with Weepu inside him and Nonu outside him, or would he have shirked the workload and let them take the limelight?

The difference I am trying to point out is that Barrett has looked more assured in the early stages of his career than Cruden did. There will always be room for improvement (which is the same still for Cruden), but Barrett already has the whole set of skills required for a first five, as well as raw talent. In my opinion, Cruden had the raw talent but has worked hard (and succeeded in) applying more structure to his game, no doubt helped by being in the All Black environment. In theory, Barrett should surpass Cruden in the near future if given the same treatment. Of course, I can't say that he will; maybe he's already reached his potential, but as he's only twenty-one, I doubt it.

I'm not even going to deny the bias of these opinions as a Taranaki and Hurricanes fan. Just know that I supported Cruden as a Turbo and a 'Cane, too.

You don't think that the rise of Taranaki can also be attributed to the fact you now have Colin Cooper, an experienced SupeRugby coach, as well as recently acquiring players like Chris King, Andre Taylor, Kurt Baker and James Broadhurst? They are good additions and players of that calibre make a real difference at this level.

You could make the same sort of argument for Aaron Cruden, really. Manawatu, with Cruden, were top of the Championship (before the playoffs). This season they came second-to-last. Of course, they lost Aaron Smith and Dave Rennie but apparently we are ignoring these factors.

I see Cruden's early goal-kicking woes as a positive. It shows he might not have been the complete player right from the word go, however, he is willing to work on his issues, which he has done this superbly. His defense, goal-kicking and the length of his kicks have all improved out of sight since he first came onto the scene. He might not have controlled the game well against Argentina but this will only improve with more experience (and a bit of hard work, which he has shown he can put in).

I do agree that Barrett looks better than Cruden did at the same age, though. But let's just see how he continues to develop before deciding he should be there ahead of Cruden.
 
My thoughts exactly. Present time, Cruden is the superior player, and has looked it during this year's Super Rugby competition - whether or not Barrett surpasses him remains to be seen, although I do tend to think he will.
 
I think it's too early to say who will end up a better player. I'd agree that at Super Rugby level Aaron Cruden took a little longer to reach his potential. That could be due to several pretty obvious things though. In his first season he was smaller than he was now, in part because he had recently recovered from testicular cancer - which for someone who isn't naturally very big anyway, is sure to limit the development. His goal kicking was fairly average and from hand he tended to be pretty short, but like others have mentioned this has improved pretty drastically. At the Canes he was still for some reason not getting THAT much game time behind freaking Kirkpatrick for part of his stint. He only started to look as classy as he is by the time he left.

Beauden Barrett on the other hand has had a bit of a different run. He has been pretty much made the first choice 1st 5/8th from the start of last season. He's naturally bigger than Cruden both in height and weight so obviously he's developed quicker. I don't think he's as good for Taranaki as Cruden is for Manawatu, in part because Barrett's biggest advantage in my opinion is his vision for space, where as Cruden takes the ball to the line more and either makes breaks (much easier to do in the ITM Cup than Super Rugby) or looks for an offload. One thing Cruden has done which has impressed me this season, is his vision has improved a lot more, to where he looks like he can run a game and make smart choices, something I think Barrett has looked very comfortable in doing from the get go.

They're different types of players really. Aaron Cruden's two years older and I think it's always tempting to go for the younger option as better and right off the older, but at 23 Cruden's still got plenty of room to develop.
 
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@ Invictus: Correct.

@ bobbilycious: I agree with you and attribute it mainly to Cooper, actually. In that he was able to convince such high calibre players to come to Taranaki (convincing anyone to come to Taranaki is a feat in itself). I couldn't pinpoint the exact tactics he's used to turn things around so quickly, other than assembling a quality set of players. But, the average fan around these parts was more stressed about losing Barrett to the All Blacks than they were, say, Waldrom and Taylor to injury. That's to say, out of all the stars in the team, Barrett is perceived by most as shining the brightest. Of course, as a local boy and talent, it's only natural for him to be a fan favourite, no? I do think he is the player in the team to have the most influence on a game, however.

I don't disagree that Cruden's improvements are a positive. Like I said, I also agree with everyone that he is the better player at present. He has looked like the player people said he would be since last year.

@ nickdnz: I did wonder if the recovery from his cancer might have been a factor in this, too. He did bounce back remarkably whatever the case. I never understood the Kirkpatrick thing, either, and maybe if he got more game time for the Hurricanes we would have seen the same Cruden as the Chiefs. Again, it's all relative.

One place where I will disagree with you is the temptation being in going for the younger option. For me the temptation is not this, but to get over-excited by the prospect of having a Taranaki player as the potential successor to Dan Carter. I don't know of a back in the last 20 years who's represented the All Blacks from Taranaki, unless you want to count Conrad Smith. Whatever the case, it does make for a rather one-eyed view.
 
@ nickdnz: I did wonder if the recovery from his cancer might have been a factor in this, too. He did bounce back remarkably whatever the case. I never understood the Kirkpatrick thing, either, and maybe if he got more game time for the Hurricanes we would have seen the same Cruden as the Chiefs. Again, it's all relative.

One place where I will disagree with you is the temptation being in going for the younger option. For me the temptation is not this, but to get over-excited by the prospect of having a Taranaki player as the potential successor to Dan Carter. I don't know of a back in the last 20 years who's represented the All Blacks from Taranaki, unless you want to count Conrad Smith. Whatever the case, it does make for a rather one-eyed view.

Yeah - I was applying that more as a general rule the 'newer is better' view. That part about a Taranaki back not playing for the All Blacks pretty much rocked my world. I actually had to go through all the All Blacks in playing order to find it. Don't know if I'm correct but it looks like besides Barrett, Kieran Crowley (1983-1991), was the last back. Could be wrong as I was checking the AB's site which only gives one province listed and maybe a few in the players synopsis.
 
Adam Thomson may have been cited, but it is actually Tamati Ellison who should be cited and banned for a few weeks for attempting to do a Callum Clark style arm twist on Scotland prop Ryan Grant.

diapo2659339a8fc8397ccbd2a2deb2bf7f21.gif
 
Anyone see Strokosch's comment over Adam Thompsons citing? I saw on twitter that he said 'Hope he doesn't get too much of a ban, I was lying all over the ball...'

:p Only in Rugby
 

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