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Experimental Law Variations (ELVs) in 2008 Investec Super 14

"Point number 3 is what I don't really like about the new laws. At the start they said they were trying to make the ref's job easier and make them less influential on the games outcome. But it seems they've just made it more complicated."

Spot on. More subjectivity , which means more possible bias from the Ref.
 
I've been fortunate enough to watch most of the games from the first two rounds of the S14 and I'm begining to come around to these ELV's. The not being able to kick directly into touch from a ball passed or taken back into the 22 is having a big effect but not everyone is struggling with it... (I thought Latham was magnificent in his out of hand kicking against the Huricanes for example) although is has destructured the game somewhat but that isn't necessarily a bad thing and will encourage some teams to attack from their 22 rather than just hoof the ball away out of habit. I'm liking the pace of the games but I think some of the players are struggling with the tempo.
 
I'm liking the pace of the games but I think some of the players are struggling with the tempo.
[/b]


Ja, specially the s'african teams struggling to come to terms with the pace, the bulls will not make the play-offs this year due to this very factor, infact I think the only south african team that might just make it could be the sharks as they are the only of the safrican franchises who's better adapted at a 'looser' game than the rest of our franchises.

I have to admit the first game I watched really went against my grain, but I now have a better idea of where this is going. The kiwi's as always are so fast to adapt and play the game to the letter of the law.

Exited at watchin the performances of the crusaders and the blues, these squads are like pioneers when it comes to finding how to make laws work for a team, as for killing the ball and not conceding points, well maybe not initially but being on the defence after succesive free kicks will quickly thin out the best organised defence in the world and the propability of conceding a try rather than a kick at goal will deter even the best flanker in the world from killing the ball.......too obviously anyway.
 
i think the pace just suits the crusaders and blues better, they are known for having the 'x factors', along with the hurricanes, but they have hardly established themselves in the forwards department. Cant really comment on non-NZ teams
 
<div class='quotemain'>
I'm liking the pace of the games but I think some of the players are struggling with the tempo.
[/b]


Ja, specially the s'african teams struggling to come to terms with the pace, the bulls will not make the play-offs this year due to this very factor, infact I think the only south african team that might just make it could be the sharks as they are the only of the safrican franchises who's better adapted at a 'looser' game than the rest of our franchises. [/b][/quote]

Admit it man! The Bull(ucks) can't take the sustained pressure of a Hurrriiiicaaaaaneee!

Sorry, IBB got me really drunk and made me pledge alleigance. I even found matching yellow handbags for all those Hurricane fans who want to remember their illustrious former players! Go team!
 
<div class='quotemain'>
I'm liking the pace of the games but I think some of the players are struggling with the tempo.
[/b]


Ja, specially the s'african teams struggling to come to terms with the pace, the bulls will not make the play-offs this year due to this very factor, infact I think the only south african team that might just make it could be the sharks as they are the only of the safrican franchises who's better adapted at a 'looser' game than the rest of our franchises.

I have to admit the first game I watched really went against my grain, but I now have a better idea of where this is going. The kiwi's as always are so fast to adapt and play the game to the letter of the law.

Exited at watchin the performances of the crusaders and the blues, these squads are like pioneers when it comes to finding how to make laws work for a team, as for killing the ball and not conceding points, well maybe not initially but being on the defence after succesive free kicks will quickly thin out the best organised defence in the world and the propability of conceding a try rather than a kick at goal will deter even the best flanker in the world from killing the ball.......too obviously anyway. [/b][/quote]

I too, was very skeptical about the new laws, but five minutes into my first game (Crusaders/Bulls) I was almost completely sold. The Bulls were attacking inside Canterbury's 22m, and there was a free kick awarded instead of a penalty for hands in the ruck. What would normally have happened was a quick 3pter would be taken and the attacking situation would have ended. Instead, the quick tap was taken and the pressure was applied to the Canty line for an additional few minutes. A try should have been scored if it weren't for a handling error. This little exchange at the start of the game extended the excitement of the first attacking opportunity instead of that deflating feeling after just a 3pter. Getting that 3pter to me instead of a try is like if you're with a girl and you think you're going to get laid, but you only end up with a handjob. Certainly, you enjoy yourself but you'd rather be pounding hole.

The law that I think no one at all can argue with is offside line being 5m behind the scrum. It opens up the game so much for teams to run their offensive sets. Even if the ELV's aren't adapted this law needs to be introduced into every level immediately.

Prestwick, about the numbers in the lineouts, I haven't really seen it take effect quite yet. In fact I haven't really even seen the quick throw in law be used effectively yet. It's only two and a half weeks in and I think we still have to wait another three rounds before we see every team utilizing the new laws effectively.

What I found to be quite intrigueing from the Crusaders/Stormers game was that a team can play defence under the new laws. It's not just frivolous out of control rugby. Canterbury and the Stormers proved today that even though a team is applying constant pressure you can defend. All it takes is the added concentration, determination and a your own share of possession. Both sides really showcased an open and exciting game of rugby but one team got shutout because Canterbury made that extra concerted effort on defence. BTW what was the name of that No. 8 for the Stormers, he was fantastic.

After watching the Bulls/Crusaders game I watched the Wales/Italy 6N game. And comparing the ELV's blow out to the traditional laws blow out, I was much more entertained by the super 14 game. These laws are just in their infancy but if you watch Canterbury or you watch Auckland play you can see the vast potential of the new game and I love where it's going.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("O'Roth")</div>
Blah. Don't f___ with the sport. It was fine before the Elves came in.[/b]

Every sport changes itself periodically to make it a more entertaining and appealing. Many people weren't happy when basketball adopted the 3pt line, but look what it has done for the game. Or even the shot the clock in basketball. In American football with not only the invention of the forward pass but the extensive use of it during the 60's and 70's by AFL teams changed the game for the better. Finally, the most comparable example to rugby would be the NHL. They had the same laws inplace for many years until teams invented ways around the laws to bog the game down(see New Jersey Devils and the Neutral Zone Trap). Now that they took out the two line passing rule, tighten up on penalties, the size of goalie equipment, where the goalie can play the puck and where he can't ect. They have opened up the game, made it more exciting and as a result there is on average 1 more goal per game being scored. Just because it was good before doesn't mean you don't look to improve it. If there is a more perfect game of rugby to played than I want to watch it and play it.
 
Prestwick, about the numbers in the lineouts, I haven't really seen it take effect quite yet. In fact I haven't really even seen the quick throw in law be used effectively yet. It's only two and a half weeks in and I think we still have to wait another three rounds before we see every team utilizing the new laws effectively.
[/b]

Well, by the sounds of it, no amazing attacking line out from five meters out has been squandered because of some retarded rule about numbers so thats mission accomplished as far as the ELVs are concerned. The old line out rules are in my opinion some of the most rediculous. If a 3 point penalty is a hand job, not having enough players at the line out is like having the hooker steal all your money before running away...
 
Results of a planet rugby poll -

Rendered the game as close to rugby league as can get
20.00%

Made it easier for New Zealand teams to win
20.00%

Improved the speed, structure, and aesthetics of the game
40.00%

Changed nothing - it's still the game we know and love
20.00%
 
Munster Man, those figures look a bit too exact, if I didn't know any better I'd say only 5 people voted.

Fcukernaut made a good point about the game still being dynamic.

In the first two rounds of games, the teams were kinda like a kid with a new toy. Clumsy and using it ineffectively (bar the Saders and Blues).

But now it seems they are starting to use the new law of the land effectively, playing with more direction and structure than the 1st weeks kicking fest.

Teams like the Saders and Blues, as mentioned before, have hit the ground running with these laws.
But to be fair they've always played the brand of rugby the ELV's encourage.

I need a few more rounds though, to eliminate any doubt in my mind that ELV's make the game more one dimensional.
 
BTW what was the name of that No. 8 for the Stormers, he was fantastic.[/b]

Robbie Diack. I agree as well... he had a cracking game (which I've just finished watching. It's a good job someone invented video recorders with all the rugby that's on tv these days!) :bravo:


After watching the Bulls/Crusaders game I watched the Wales/Italy 6N game. And comparing the ELV's blow out to the traditional laws blow out, I was much more entertained by the super 14 game. These laws are just in their infancy but if you watch Canterbury or you watch Auckland play you can see the vast potential of the new game and I love where it's going.[/b]

I'm enjoying the S14 more than the 6Nations because the S14 is far more entertaining. I realise that 'entertainment' is a dirty word for some traditionalists but I'm all for it. There seems to have been a lot of reset scrums so far this round though?
 
From my viewing of the Super 14 one thing is clear. If these laws come in fully the IRB have to sort out the scrum. There's no point awarding a free kick to speed up the game if the next minute and a half are going to be spent re-setting scrums.
That aside the quick taps do tend to speed up the game but one of my major fears is that the ELVs reward cynicism in that teams can give away free kicks all day and not have to fear the opposition scoring points from penalties
 
Hi
Been watching Super 14 and although it is only a couple of weeks in and obviously players are still adapting it doesn't seem to be having hugely positive effect on the spectacle ... this Saturday was my birthday and shitty weather here so I was 'allowed' to watch 2 super 14 matches followed in the afternoon by some Premiership matches - watching one after another was interesting as the games were way different, ok NH had always been a bit different from SH but the divide was huge - the Super 14 matches were 'quicker' but not as interesting to watch. The main thing that struck me though was the running tactics - in the Super 14 matches it really does seem to be more of the straight bash and then run agian tactics as League, there was little off the ball (dummy) running or apparent set pieces and because everyone is either quick tapping the short arms or taking scrums the action was either very broken and quick, or stodgy. Meanwhile the Premiership and French 14 leaugues have been racking up some decent scores and seems to be honest to be more interesting rugby. Funnily enough my wife who was sitting half watching the Super 14 match thought I was watching 'the other rugby' as it didn't look like the 'kind' I liked and used to play. She did say though it was easier for her to follow but she got bored!

SO the jury may still be out for a while I think ...
 
Personally I think the introduction of short arm penalties for things like hands in the ruck has done the game wonders. I never liked the number of kickable penalties that resulted from rucks, as it's always been a murky area... But the players are still adapting to the increased tempo and a lot of teams have yet to master the more league style tactical kicking game.
 
Personally I think the introduction of short arm penalties for things like hands in the ruck has done the game wonders. I never liked the number of kickable penalties that resulted from rucks, as it's always been a murky area... But the players are still adapting to the increased tempo and a lot of teams have yet to master the more league style tactical kicking game.
[/b]
That's what I am worried about....at first I loved the new laws but after watching some horrendous ruck refereeing plus the different style of the game I am really not happy with the way the game is going....it is becoming like league and that isn't a good thing....why conform to a style of playing that is clearly not successful in most places around the world...league shouldn't be the muse to exciting play....bring back rucking to get the people out of the ruck, keep penalties but maybe make them worth 2 points....and stop the 'pause' in the scrum....sorted...
 
http://www.keo.co.za/2008/03/03/northern-n...ripe-over-elvs/

According to the Northies Elvis ain't king.

The Brits are resisting the law changes, which might decide whether or not they're gonna be used in the Tri Nations.
[/b]

Doesn't suprise me to be honest.
I really can't see the Guiness Premiership (for example) being played under the ELV's. There is no need for the GP to change... crowds are good, ratings ok and there is loads of money around the game. Why risk it?
 
<div class='quotemain'> http://www.keo.co.za/2008/03/03/northern-n...ripe-over-elvs/

According to the Northies Elvis ain't king.

The Brits are resisting the law changes, which might decide whether or not they're gonna be used in the Tri Nations. [/b]

Well, as some people have been saying, its best to watch the entire Super 14 and Tri - Nations first before we make a decision ;)

Can't go making rash decisions now, can we? :D
[/b][/quote]
Absolutely right. I'm just reporting the 'word on the street'.

I've already expressed my view on the ELV's in the previous pages.
 
<div class='quotemain'>
Personally I think the introduction of short arm penalties for things like hands in the ruck has done the game wonders. I never liked the number of kickable penalties that resulted from rucks, as it's always been a murky area... But the players are still adapting to the increased tempo and a lot of teams have yet to master the more league style tactical kicking game.
[/b]
That's what I am worried about....at first I loved the new laws but after watching some horrendous ruck refereeing plus the different style of the game I am really not happy with the way the game is going....it is becoming like league and that isn't a good thing....why conform to a style of playing that is clearly not successful in most places around the world...league shouldn't be the muse to exciting play....bring back rucking to get the people out of the ruck, keep penalties but maybe make them worth 2 points....and stop the 'pause' in the scrum....sorted... [/b][/quote]

The reason league isn't as big as union globally isn't as simple as "most people clearly don't find it interesting compared to union". If that were the case it shouldn't have ever been successful in Australia. No, there's a lot more at work, including concerted efforts to keep league at bay in a number of countries (eg France - but for more information contact the expert: our man St Helens RFL). In any case it's worth pointing out that Union has copied from league in the past (the increased value given to scoring tries was most certainly a league initiative) and pretty league coaching revolutionised defences in Union as well.

But anyway, back on topic. I agree that we certainly shouldn't keep all the rules, but I definately support the new 22 zone rule as while it can lead to the odd kicking dule, it also opens the pitch up a fair bit and gives it a bit of a 7s feel. Rucking is a bit of an issue though I'll admit, but I still think they're on the right track because I always thought there were too many dubious 3 point penalties given at the ruck.
 
The reason league isn't as big as union globally isn't as simple as "most people clearly don't find it interesting compared to union". If that were the case it shouldn't have ever been successful in Australia. No, there's a lot more at work, including concerted efforts to keep league at bay in a number of countries (eg France - but for more information contact the expert: our man St Helens RFL). In any case it's worth pointing out that Union has copied from league in the past (the increased value given to scoring tries was most certainly a league initiative) and pretty league coaching revolutionised defences in Union as well.
[/b]

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. In the UK, League has had a similar amount of coverage to that of Union in the media through the decades, first starting with average to poor newspaper coverage and only television coverage of the big events on the BBC to average newspaper coverage and most of the television coverage on Satellite television.

Other than that, I disagree that there has been a concerted effort to hinder Rugby League. People have been given the choice of sports and more have chosen Rugby Union.

The point we're trying to make is that if we wanted a game more like League, we would be wanting to watch Rugby League. The question one has to ask is as we gradually change the rules to make the game more 'league' like, where exactly will this end? What will be next to be changed or dropped?

League has influenced Rugby Union over the years but that has been incremental and gradual change. In the same breath, you could mention similar levels of influence that sports like American Football and Soccer have had on Union in terms of player conditioning, team organisation and coaching amongst others. The whole idea of different coaches for different areas of the game has its roots in American sports and that arguably has revolutionised the game as well. For example forming the key-stone of various coaching operations run by successful coaches like Sir Clive Woodward, Graham Henry and Jake White for example.

Managed to get ahold of some of the games of the previous two rounds of the Super 14 and I'm ambivilent to be honest. Standing players further back from the scrum seems to give the flankers or number 8 lots of time to get a good head of steam up rather than throwing the ball to the backs like I expected. On the other hand however, there just haven't been enough infringements where a free kick was given for me to judge. Some times, they kicked the ball aimlessly forward, other times tried to run for it but there seemed to be no direction or idea of what to do with the ball once given the free kick.

To be honest, it hasn't really been that entertaining. I am watching a game right now and the score is 26 - 12. At least five tries have been scored so far and probably many more are to come but I feel strangely empty and unfulfilled, whether this is because of the ELVs or because of the Super 14 period, I do not know. The tries that I have enjoyed have been enterprising affairs outside of the realm of the ELVs, like the Hurricanes first try against the Chiefs when the guy called the mark, took a quick kick and went for it, setting up momentum for the try.

My conclusion? Inconclusive :lol: . The Super 14 seems absolutely inept in showing us the new rules so far and we're going to have to wait until the end of the Super 14 and the start of the Tri Nations before we can make out what this all means.
 

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