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The Alpha Bro

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Delighted for the prick, what an asshole.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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Mental.
I find it hard to understand how someone sitting in a comfy leather chair in the UK, who doesn't understand an iota of Spanish nor Uruguayan culture, passes judgment on how two Uruguayans talk between themselves without representing anyone but themselves and then decides what is and what is not racist in that context.
Psychiatric material.



In fact, if anything, the FA is discriminating against him as he is being punished for belittling Uruguayan expressions and his use of Spanish.
 

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Mental.
I find it hard to understand how someone sitting in a comfy leather chair in the UK, who doesn't understand an iota of Spanish nor Uruguayan culture, passes judgment on how two Uruguayans talk between themselves without representing anyone but themselves and then decides what is and what is not racist in that context.
Psychiatric material.



In fact, if anything, the FA is discriminating against him as he is being punished for belittling Uruguayan expressions and his use of Spanish.

I honestly don't have enough knowledge to pass judgement, but your post did make me think of an interesting debate.

What's more important, the intent or the outcome? Or put another way. Which is more important if the person doesn't intend to be racist or if someone takes offense?

I'm not saying they apply here, but I think it's quite a complex and topical issue about intentions and taking offense and which is more important.
 

The Alpha Bro

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In fact, if anything, the FA is discriminating against him as he is being punished for belittling Uruguayan expressions and his use of Spanish.
I disagree, he's in England and playing in the FA's tournaments. They impose the standards to be followed, not him.
 

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What's more important, the intent or the outcome?

Good question. Let me elaborate on this. First, some context. This was a message from Cavani to a friend of his.
So let's talk about both.

Intent.
Did Cavani intent to negatively discriminate his friend in any way or form? Insult? Harm? Humiliate? No. No. No No.

Outcome
Did Cavani's friend felt discriminated, insulted, harmed or humiliated? No. No. No. No.

So what is the problem them? Why is this such a big deal?
In a galaxy far far away, someone who doesn't speak the bloody language these two people where communicating in, deemed it necessary to voice his or her opinion about a conversation he was not taking part of nor was the subject of. He found it offensive, even though he was unfamiliar with the context nor understood what the term meant.

To be honest, i don't think the FA could be more patronizing even if they wanted to.

It basically gives cart blanche to anyone, anywhere to claim to be offended by a conversation they don't even understand (nor where involved in, nor the subject of) and then cancel the people involved.

I dont like what you say? If i get enough people to claim to be offended, that's it, you're out.
**** that.

I disagree, he's in England and playing in the FA's tournaments. They impose the standards to be followed, not him.

First, it was clearly a conversation between two people as private individuals, in their language and using phrases that are almost symbiotic with being Uruguayan. Neither of them meant to represent nor represented anyone but themselves. Other than revealing private information, it's as personal as it gets.
Second, those standards that appear to be broken should be set out beforehand. What rule, exactly did he break?

What's next, tapping his phones and hacking his emails to see if his conversations and messages are deemed appropriate by the FA?
Is he allowed to use the word black? Is he allowed to eat black pudding or he should refrain from that too in case someone feels offended?

The FA basically told him that acting Uruguayan among Uruguayans while talking about Uruguans was racist, and punished him for it.
That in itself is discriminatory.

Let me ask you this: If a black football player called another black football player "niggah" in an amicable manner, would the FA intervene, call him a racist, and fine him 100K quid?
Think we all know the answer to that.
 

The Alpha Bro

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First, it was clearly a conversation between two people as private individuals, in their language and using phrases that are almost symbiotic with being Uruguayan. Neither of them meant to represent nor represented anyone but themselves. Other than revealing private information, it's as personal as it gets.
A conversation between two private individuals on his public Instagram page with 7.9 million followers... Hardly "as personal
as it gets".
Second, those standards that appear to be broken should be set out beforehand. What rule, exactly did he break?
They absolutely are set out beforehand. Cavani isn't challenging this, he knows he's dead to rights. If he didn't break any rules United would not be sitting idly while he misses three games.

What's next, tapping his phones and hacking his emails to see if his conversations and messages are deemed appropriate by the FA?
Is he allowed to use the word black? Is he allowed to eat black pudding or he should refrain from that too in case someone feels offended?
I can only presume you don't know how Instagram works at all, anyone with an account could see the message while it was up.

The FA basically told him that acting Uruguayan among Uruguayans while talking about Uruguans was racist, and punished him for it.
That in itself is discriminatory.
No they told him not to use slurs while employed by one of the clubs in their association. And it is a slur, to us your argument: go to England, call a black Argentinian/Uruguayan Negrito in front of black English people, it won't go well for you.

Let me ask you this: If a black football player called another black football player "niggah" in an amicable manner, would the FA intervene, call him a racist, and fine him 100K quid?
Think we all know the answer to that.
If they posted it on a social media account I presume it would result in the exact same sanction as Cavani's here.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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A conversation between two private individuals on his public Instagram page with 7.9 million followers... Hardly "as personal
as it gets".
You are confusing private with personal. This was an instance where there was a clear sender with a unique, single, specific and crystal clear addressee, hence, as personal as it gets.

They absolutely are set out beforehand. Cavani isn't challenging this, he knows he's dead to rights. If he didn't break any rules United would not be sitting idly while he misses three games.
Refresh my memory: weren't you one of the ones who in Folau's case argued that even thou RA had a case they chose not to fight it?

In any case, being right is one thing, being able to defend your stance while facing a committee or court is quite another.
I can only presume you don't know how Instagram works at all, anyone with an account could see the message while it was up.
I can only presume you are unfamiliar with euphemisms. Careful there, you might get a severe case of literalism.

No they told him not to use slurs while employed by one of the clubs in their association. And it is a slur, to us your argument: go to England, call a black Argentinian/Uruguayan Negrito in front of black English people, it won't go well for you.
This is the quid right there.
Merriam Webster's definition of slur:
1
a: an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo
b: a shaming or degrading effect

There was no insult, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no disparagement, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no shame, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no degrading effect, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.

Pretty much everyone (not saying everyone only because i haven't read the opinions of the 400 MM people who live in South America) in lat america understands it was not derogatory in any way. Quite the contrary. If anything, it was endearing.

What you are saying is equivalent to arguing that Buddhism and Hinduism should remove all swastikas from their temples, pagodas, clothing, and even bodies (tattoos) because some people (myself included) later associated that symbol with something they now find offensive. No, that's not how things work, nor how they should work. People need to understand context and intent.

call a black Argentinian/Uruguayan Negrito in front of black English people, it won't go well for you.
First, that is not what happened.
Second, why on earth are you assuming a "black Argentinian/Uruguayan". Again, you do not understand the use of the word.

Third, that's a fight I'm willing to take. Hell, I've had my arse beaten quite a few times for causes i don't give a turd about, imagine for one I actually care for.
My best mate passed away last year. I called him "negro" since i can recall, to the point I actually had to stop and think for a min what his actual name was. I can tell you his mother's maiden name or his niece's name, instantly, but it was just not natural for me to think of him by his name. Nothing to do with his skin nor race. Probably not the typical story but if you must know he just liked metal music as a kid and whore a lot of those black t-shirts with metal band logos and the name stuck. Nothing wrong, faulty, derogatory nor insulting.

If you think i would have stopped calling my friend by the same nickname i've used for over thirty years because someone feels offended and throws a jab at me you are delusional.

If people do not understand the meaning of a word or phrase that is their problem. They can ask and educate themselves. If because of their ignorance they take offense and want to escalate, that undesirable and unfortunate, but regrettably acceptable.

I try to pick my words carefully, understand we all can make mistakes, and that intent is fundamental for these things. I can't picture a situation where I would purposedly try to insult people based on their race. But just as I do that, i wouldn't let others dictate my language when they do not understand what i said (it was not a slur) nor why i said it (no intent).

And let me say this again because this is important: the people who are passing judgment here do not understand not only what was said, but not even the bloody language the message was written on.

If they posted it on a social media account I presume it would result in the exact same sanction as Cavani's here.
Brain Mujati comes to mind. He had tens of thousands of followers and views on youtube (till he delete all (unrelated reasons). He re-uploaded all later so it's not as if he is hiding or anything). It's not as if people "missed it".

Let me make it clear again (this day and age, jesus), i dont believe for a split second BM is a racist. He ain't. By any measure imaginable. You just need to understand the context.

A 10 sec google search about this yielded way too many results. This was the first one (had to use the cache version, for some reason the regular one wasn't working).

 

The Alpha Bro

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You are confusing private with personal. This was an instance where there was a clear sender with a unique, single, specific and crystal clear addressee, hence, as personal as it gets.
That is incredibly stupid man, let's get the dictionary out "of or concerning one's private life, relationships, and emotions rather than one's career or public life." Not something I'm putting on a public page with 8m followers.
Refresh my memory: weren't you one of the ones who in Folau's case argued that even thou RA had a case they chose not to fight it?
Quoting the Bible v using a slur (to be addressed) aren't equivalents.
In any case, being right is one thing, being able to defend your stance while facing a committee or court is quite another.
Not really when the rules are clear and set out. The burden of proof is still on the FA, if United or Cavani thought there was a chance of winning this on the balance of probability they would pursue it.
I can only presume you are unfamiliar with euphemisms. Careful there, you might get a severe case of literalism.
lol
This is the quid right there.
Merriam Webster's definition of slur:
1
a: an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo
b: a shaming or degrading effect

There was no insult, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no disparagement, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no shame, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no degrading effect, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
The problem here is that the receiver becomes literally anyone who can read it when it's a public post. A lot of readers will be insulted by this, there's no doubt of that.
Pretty much everyone (not saying everyone only because i haven't read the opinions of the 400 MM people who live in South America) in lat america understands it was not derogatory in any way. Quite the contrary. If anything, it was endearing.

Here's a contrary opinion, it also provides the guidelines the FA used to sanction him.
What you are saying is equivalent to arguing that Buddhism and Hinduism should remove all swastikas from their temples, pagodas, clothing, and even bodies (tattoos) because some people (myself included) later associated that symbol with something they now find offensive. No, that's not how things work, nor how they should work. People need to understand context and intent.
Whataboutery gone absolutely mad here.
First, that is not what happened.
It essentially is, mine is a far fairer comparison than that swastika waffle.
Second, why on earth are you assuming a "black Argentinian/Uruguayan". Again, you do not understand the use of the word.
I don't understand the intricacies of the term, you're absolutely correct. I know little enough of South American culture, not a place I've ever been or read much about. That changes nothing here though, because we're not in Uruguay.
Third, that's a fight I'm willing to take. Hell, I've had my arse beaten quite a few times for causes i don't give a turd about, imagine for one I actually care for.
My best mate passed away last year. I called him "negro" since i can recall, to the point I actually had to stop and think for a min what his actual name was. I can tell you his mother's maiden name or his niece's name, instantly, but it was just not natural for me to think of him by his name. Nothing to do with his skin nor race. Probably not the typical story but if you must know he just liked metal music as a kid and whore a lot of those black t-shirts with metal band logos and the name stuck. Nothing wrong, faulty, derogatory nor insulting.

If you think i would have stopped calling my friend by the same nickname i've used for over thirty years because someone feels offended and throws a jab at me you are delusional.
Firstly, sorry for your loss.
Secondly, I understand that it's not racist in SA.
Finally, it's not acceptable in the UK, or Ireland, or Europe etc... If you openly called a friend negro in any office here HR would be on your case immediately*. If you refused to stop you'd be terminated. Dying on that cross is your choice, I don't think Cavani** is racist, I don't think you're racist but if you don't think of those around you and the culture you're in when using these terms you shouldn't avoid condemnation because they don't understand you.

*I know it wasn't an office setting but it's difficult to equate sporting superstars to every day life, the argument is fair.
**Cavani was ignorant here but these are the sort of things that are made an example of in the UK and similar countries right now.

If people do not understand the meaning of a word or phrase that is their problem. They can ask and educate themselves. If because of their ignorance they take offense and want to escalate, that undesirable and unfortunate, but regrettably acceptable.
Cavani is the ignorant one here, if he wants to use that phrase publicly he should play in South America where it's acceptable.

I try to pick my words carefully, understand we all can make mistakes, and that intent is fundamental for these things. I can't picture a situation where I would purposedly try to insult people based on their race. But just as I do that, i wouldn't let others dictate my language when they do not understand what i said (it was not a slur) nor why i said it (no intent).

And let me say this again because this is important: the people who are passing judgment here do not understand not only what was said, but not even the bloody language the message was written on.
This is fundamentally the difference, had Cavani sent a private text that somehow was leaked I'd agree with you. He didn't, he used a term that isn't acceptable in England, where he's employed. If an English person tried to kick up a fuss at the use of the word in Uruguay the argument wouldn't hold weight. It's not the burden of the FA to educate everyone on a very particular Argentinian/Uruguayan custom. The burden is on Cavani to avoid using terms that are racial slurs in England publicly.
Brain Mujati comes to mind. He had tens of thousands of followers and views on youtube (till he delete all (unrelated reasons). He re-uploaded all later so it's not as if he is hiding or anything). It's not as if people "missed it".

Let me make it clear again (this day and age, jesus), i dont believe for a split second BM is a racist. He ain't. By any measure imaginable. You just need to understand the context.

A 10 sec google search about this yielded way too many results. This was the first one (had to use the cache version, for some reason the regular one wasn't working).


I think I've covered this, I don't think Cavani is racist.
 
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TRF_Olyy

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There's literally nothing to argue here

Work for an organisation: follow their social media guidelines on your public account.
If you want to use racist language then keep it on your private one.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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That is incredibly stupid man, let's get the dictionary out
Sure, let's do that.

1609451462714.png

Quoting the Bible v using a slur (to be addressed) aren't equivalents.
So you were that one. You cheeky hypocrite.
Funny you keep insisting on it being a slur.



Last thing. In Spanish unlike English we have a governing authority for the use of language (RAE). They basically have the final saying on what each word (officially) means. I'm point this out in order for you to understand the source i am about to quote from is the only official one we have in the spanish language and not one i cherry picked.
Here is the relevant definition for negro/a (https://dle.rae.es/negro)

16. m. y f. And. y Am. U. como voz de cariño entre casados, novios o personas que se quieren bien.

"Am" stands for America, as in the continent. The most accurate translation would be something along the lines of "as a voice of affection between married people, couples or people who love/like each other dearly."
 

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There's literally nothing to argue here
You tend to say that a lot when you don't have arguments. It's not the first time and i guess i wont be the last. You being an admin here and playing judge and jury when it suits you ain't particularly fun, at least not for me.
I should have learned my lesson from the last time. My bad.
I'll stick to the rugby section.
Cheers.
 

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It wasn't direct, it was public for anyone to read. He addressed the intended recipient but there's collateral of 8m followers and anyone else who looks at his page. Had he used the direct messaging function we wouldn't be here.
So you were that one. You cheeky hypocrite.
I'm not a hypocrite, they're different cases with a different set of facts. I do however have a law degree and I'm currently training to be a lawyer having passed very difficult admission tests in the jurisdiction which most closely resembles that of England and Wales where Cavani is as well as also being a common law jurisdiction like Australia so I reckon I know what I'm talking about.
Funny you keep insisting on it being a slur.
It is in the UK man. Ireland too, if I called anyone Negrito in my office I'd be sacked before the end of the day.
Last thing. In Spanish unlike English we have a governing authority for the use of language (RAE). They basically have the final saying on what each word (officially) means. I'm point this out in order for you to understand the source i am about to quote from is the only official one we have in the spanish language and not one i cherry picked.
Here is the relevant definition for negro/a (https://dle.rae.es/negro)

16. m. y f. And. y Am. U. como voz de cariño entre casados, novios o personas que se quieren bien.

"Am" stands for America, as in the continent. The most accurate translation would be something along the lines of "as a voice of affection between married people, couples or people who love/like each other dearly."
Mostly addressed in my previous post which I've edited having clicked reply accidentally. I'll throw it below but the tl;dr is that I don't think Cavani is racist but the burden is on him to conform to English standards, not the other way around.

This is the quid right there.
Merriam Webster's definition of slur:
1
a: an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo
b: a shaming or degrading effect

There was no insult, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no disparagement, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no shame, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
There was no degrading effect, neither intended by the writer nor perceived by the receiver of the message.
The problem here is that the receiver becomes literally anyone who can read it when it's a public post. A lot of readers will be insulted by this, there's no doubt of that.
Pretty much everyone (not saying everyone only because i haven't read the opinions of the 400 MM people who live in South America) in lat america understands it was not derogatory in any way. Quite the contrary. If anything, it was endearing.

Here's a contrary opinion, it also provides the guidelines the FA used to sanction him.
What you are saying is equivalent to arguing that Buddhism and Hinduism should remove all swastikas from their temples, pagodas, clothing, and even bodies (tattoos) because some people (myself included) later associated that symbol with something they now find offensive. No, that's not how things work, nor how they should work. People need to understand context and intent.
Whataboutery gone absolutely mad here.
First, that is not what happened.
It essentially is, mine is a far fairer comparison than that swastika waffle.
Second, why on earth are you assuming a "black Argentinian/Uruguayan". Again, you do not understand the use of the word.
I don't understand the intricacies of the term, you're absolutely correct. I know little enough of South American culture, not a place I've ever been or read much about. That changes nothing here though, because we're not in Uruguay.
Third, that's a fight I'm willing to take. Hell, I've had my arse beaten quite a few times for causes i don't give a turd about, imagine for one I actually care for.
My best mate passed away last year. I called him "negro" since i can recall, to the point I actually had to stop and think for a min what his actual name was. I can tell you his mother's maiden name or his niece's name, instantly, but it was just not natural for me to think of him by his name. Nothing to do with his skin nor race. Probably not the typical story but if you must know he just liked metal music as a kid and whore a lot of those black t-shirts with metal band logos and the name stuck. Nothing wrong, faulty, derogatory nor insulting.

If you think i would have stopped calling my friend by the same nickname i've used for over thirty years because someone feels offended and throws a jab at me you are delusional.
Firstly, sorry for your loss.
Secondly, I understand that it's not racist in SA.
Finally, it's not acceptable in the UK, or Ireland, or Europe etc... If you openly called a friend negro in any office here HR would be on your case immediately*. If you refused to stop you'd be terminated. Dying on that cross is your choice, I don't think Cavani** is racist, I don't think you're racist but if you don't think of those around you and the culture you're in when using these terms you shouldn't avoid condemnation because they don't understand you.

*I know it wasn't an office setting but it's difficult to equate sporting superstars to every day life, the argument is fair.
**Cavani was ignorant here but these are the sort of things that are made an example of in the UK and similar countries right now.

If people do not understand the meaning of a word or phrase that is their problem. They can ask and educate themselves. If because of their ignorance they take offense and want to escalate, that undesirable and unfortunate, but regrettably acceptable.
Cavani is the ignorant one here, if he wants to use that phrase publicly he should play in South America where it's acceptable.

I try to pick my words carefully, understand we all can make mistakes, and that intent is fundamental for these things. I can't picture a situation where I would purposedly try to insult people based on their race. But just as I do that, i wouldn't let others dictate my language when they do not understand what i said (it was not a slur) nor why i said it (no intent).

And let me say this again because this is important: the people who are passing judgment here do not understand not only what was said, but not even the bloody language the message was written on.
This is fundamentally the difference, had Cavani sent a private text that somehow was leaked I'd agree with you. He didn't, he used a term that isn't acceptable in England, where he's employed. If an English person tried to kick up a fuss at the use of the word in Uruguay the argument wouldn't hold weight. It's not the burden of the FA to educate everyone on a very particular Argentinian/Uruguayan custom. The burden is on Cavani to avoid using terms that are racial slurs in England publicly.
Brain Mujati comes to mind. He had tens of thousands of followers and views on youtube (till he delete all (unrelated reasons). He re-uploaded all later so it's not as if he is hiding or anything). It's not as if people "missed it".

Let me make it clear again (this day and age, jesus), i dont believe for a split second BM is a racist. He ain't. By any measure imaginable. You just need to understand the context.

A 10 sec google search about this yielded way too many results. This was the first one (had to use the cache version, for some reason the regular one wasn't working).


I think I've covered this, I don't think Cavani is racist.
 

TRF_Olyy

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You tend to say that a lot when you don't have arguments. It's not the first time and i guess i wont be the last. You being an admin here and playing judge and jury when it suits you ain't particularly fun, at least not for me.
I should have learned my lesson from the last time. My bad.
I'll stick to the rugby section.
Cheers.
....what?

Much like last time, all I'm saying is that companies in the UK tend to have social media guidelines (every company I've worked at, from a warehouse to a digital agency, have them)
If you break them you're in trouble
He clearly broke them

No one to blame but himself. If you want to converse in that way with your mates then have a private account just for friends and family - I'm sure plenty of celebs do.
 

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tried to read through all that but it got very complicated

I don't think you could post something on a billboard and claim it was a personal message for one other person and I don't think you can do that when posting on twitter/insta

that's what txt/email/messenger/whatsapp or any number of direct messaging apps are for, choosing one that anyone can looks at is a deliberate action for lost of people to see it and "like"
 

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Two unbalanced looking teams named in Anfield in my uneducated opinion. I'm guessing we'll see a draw.
 

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Luxembourg... I barely follow the football team but watched that and it's ******* sickening. Get that amateur manager out.
 

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