Foreigners captaining national teams

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Of course those principles should translate onto the rugby pitch, ignore anyone saying otherwise.

Sure, lets disregard anyone who thinks differently....

@mosfeldt
My thoughts.
To be honest, i do not like it, not one bit. I do not like the idea of someone being able to pick the team he plays for at a national level and that is an inevitable consequence of what all of this.
I agree your mother (or anyone) should have the right to be call herself Irish if she's lived 30 years there and have all the duties and privileges that come with that (voting rights, unemployment benefits, the lot, etc), but not to play for a national team. Think of FIFA rules (once you've played for a national team, even at u12's, you cannot play for another team, or at least they used to be like that). I'd even take it a step further. First passport counts, end of. I love the guys who could have played for France and stayed in Italy, the guys who could have played for RSA and played for Zimbabwe, the guys who could have played for Australia but stayed in Tonga. I have nothing but respect for that. That is love for once's country. Putting their money where their mouths are.

I like the concept of having to play with the cards that nature/chance gave you. It's a romantic one, one we all kinda like in theory but as time passes it becomes rarer and rarer. This concept is what makes a lot of the greatest sport moments happen. It gives "little guys" a shot against big guys.

Looking at what happened/happens in football is a good exercise for this. In the 50's you could swap from one country to another and you ended up with Di Steffano playing for Spain, because Real Madrid and Spain could afford better salaries. Then the difference between what clubs could pay in Europe vs South America became bigger and bigger and talent started to go away earlier. If you look at South America vs Europe club cup (Intercontinental Cup) it's a perfect example: Until the 2000 South America still had a positive record against Europe even though half the team from European representatives were South American. The salary gaps became bigger and not South America loses by 4 goals or more. And this ain't a one off. The change in trend is nothing but crystal clear. The data is irrefutable.

I do not want national teams to follow that road. I sincerely wholeheartedly do not.

If you want that, then lets at least have the intellectual honesty to call a spade a spade: let's stop calling the teams England/Ireland/Italy and call then "the team that the people from England/Ireland/Italy can afford".

It's one of the very few things where i'd say football is above rugby in terms of governance. You need to decide, once, and usually very early in life (way before your professional career peaks). Again, i like that, it forces you to nail your colours to the mast, in a good way.
This idea of playing for a nation only to switch teams when and if it suits is disgusting imo.

Just to add context and to take care of a small chip i happen to have on my shoulder after writing this: i have absolutely no problem whatsoever with foreigners. I am one.
In Argentina any foreigner can come and get a job (legally), study for free (primary, secondary and uni), and get free medical attention. I like that idea and embrace it. My issue here is not with foreigners but with the game i love. For me part of the game is, again, playing with the cards you've been dealt. Therein lies a HUGE part of it's beauty.

Having said that, the difference between being part of the team and being the captain is a no brainer. There is none. If you are eligible for the latter you should also be for the former. Captaincy is a mere formality.

Cheers

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Manusamoa Tuilagi of course! Was considering changing my first name to that for a while now.

He isn't in the squad though.

 

[stormmaster1]

Didn't Budge Poutney captain Scotland briefly towards the end of his career. He had a gran from the channel islands so could represent any UK nation, despite having no scottish descent, the rest of family being English adn living his entire life in England. I don't think Scotland suffered for his involvement and he certainly gave his all, despite being less scottish than stander is irish

 

[munstermuffin]

Sure, lets disregard anyone who thinks differently....

@mosfeldt
My thoughts.
To be honest, i do not like it, not one bit. I do not like the idea of someone being able to pick the team he plays for at a national level and that is an inevitable consequence of what all of this.
I agree your mother (or anyone) should have the right to be call herself Irish if she's lived 30 years there and have all the duties and privileges that come with that (voting rights, unemployment benefits, the lot, etc), but not to play for a national team. Think of FIFA rules (once you've played for a national team, even at u12's, you cannot play for another team, or at least they used to be like that). I'd even take it a step further. First passport counts, end of. I love the guys who could have played for France and stayed in Italy, the guys who could have played for RSA and played for Zimbabwe, the guys who could have played for Australia but stayed in Tonga. I have nothing but respect for that. That is love for once's country. Putting their money where their mouths are.

I like the concept of having to play with the cards that nature/chance gave you. It's a romantic one, one we all kinda like in theory but as time passes it becomes rarer and rarer. This concept is what makes a lot of the greatest sport moments happen. It gives "little guys" a shot against big guys.

Looking at what happened/happens in football is a good exercise for this. In the 50's you could swap from one country to another and you ended up with Di Steffano playing for Spain, because Real Madrid and Spain could afford better salaries. Then the difference between what clubs could pay in Europe vs South America became bigger and bigger and talent started to go away earlier. If you look at South America vs Europe club cup (Intercontinental Cup) it's a perfect example: Until the 2000 South America still had a positive record against Europe even though half the team from European representatives were South American. The salary gaps became bigger and not South America loses by 4 goals or more. And this ain't a one off. The change in trend is nothing but crystal clear. The data is irrefutable.

I do not want national teams to follow that road. I sincerely wholeheartedly do not.

If you want that, then lets at least have the intellectual honesty to call a spade a spade: let's stop calling the teams England/Ireland/Italy and call then "the team that the people from England/Ireland/Italy can afford".

It's one of the very few things where i'd say football is above rugby in terms of governance. You need to decide, once, and usually very early in life (way before your professional career peaks). Again, i like that, it forces you to nail your colours to the mast, in a good way.
This idea of playing for a nation only to switch teams when and if it suits is disgusting imo.

Just to add context and to take care of a small chip i happen to have on my shoulder after writing this: i have absolutely no problem whatsoever with foreigners. I am one.
In Argentina any foreigner can come and get a job (legally), study for free (primary, secondary and uni), and get free medical attention. I like that idea and embrace it. My issue here is not with foreigners but with the game i love. For me part of the game is, again, playing with the cards you've been dealt. Therein lies a HUGE part of it's beauty.

Having said that, the difference between being part of the team and being the captain is a no brainer. There is none. If you are eligible for the latter you should also be for the former. Captaincy is a mere formality.

Cheers

Just on this CJ and his wife I know both have Irish passports.
In football it's 5years in England but 3 in some and longer in others. That's based on citizenship. And if younplay with a team up to U19nin Fifa you can swap and of you play U21 you have so many years to swap. So your views on soccerside are completely wrong.

But back on point. When is it abcasw of a man being international. Like the SH teams have been doing it for years only difference is players were snapped up younger and not as high a calibre when taken

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'd like all English players to be Wavell-Wakefields or Starmer-Smiths* and to have lived their whole lives within 25 miles of Charing Cross. But that's not the world we live in. I don't like the current rules, but in a professional game you really can't blame players for making the system work for them. As long as they give their all for the cause, that's fine. As for the captaincy you choose the best captain from the pool of eligible players. Yes of course I'd prefer they were born and bred in this green and pleasant land, but it's far more important that they have the right leadership qualities.

* I don't really!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Just on this CJ and his wife I know both have Irish passports.
In football it's 5years in England but 3 in some and longer in others. That's based on citizenship. And if younplay with a team up to U19nin Fifa you can swap and of you play U21 you have so many years to swap. So your views on soccerside are completely wrong.

Fifa's statutes

Article 5 - paragraph 2
With the exception of the conditions specified in article 8 below, any Player who has already participated in a match (either in full or in part) in an Official Competition of any category or any type of football for one Association may not play an international match for a representative team of another Association.


Article 8
1.
If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another Country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an Official Competition at "A" international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an Official Competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.
b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association.
2.
If a Player who has been fielded by his Association in an international match in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 permanently loses the nationality of that Country without his consent or against his will due to a decision by a government authority, he may request permission to play for another Association whose nationality he already has or has acquired.

Source: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/02/58/14/48/2015fifastatutesen_neutral.pdf

So, i guess that makes FIFA wrong too?

 

[Car]

FIFA relaxed the rules a lot over the years. You don't only have countless of players who used to play for one country in their youth, but for another as A team players, but even some who played friendlies for a team at A team level and made the switch. Then you have exceptions for cases like Kosovo where players with several caps for another country (and not just in friendlies) could switch. There are more countries that profited from those rules (mostly weaker countries that snapped up players from stronger ones, I think) than those that lost out, so the votes always went that way.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The statutes i posted are from 2015 and still applicable. And exceptions for war zones are obviously not what i was talking about in my previous posts.

The rule for the overwhelming majority of the cases is that once you are picked by a national team and you accept, that s your team for life. That's why tournaments involving young kids have a disproportionate amount of substitutions tried out.

 

[Car]

Not if you only played for the country's youth teams - there are countless of examples of players who changed afterwards. No, that is a thing of the past due to the rule changes. The conditions only apply for A teams and only then for official matches, i.e. not for friendlies.

 

[die_mole]

The statutes i posted are from 2015 and still applicable. And exceptions for war zones are obviously not what i was talking about in my previous posts.

The rule for the overwhelming majority of the cases is that once you are picked by a national team and you accept, that s your team for life. That's why tournaments involving young kids have a disproportionate amount of substitutions tried out.

you aren't tied to a nation until you appear in an actual game with the senior team, friendlies don't count

it's how costa played for spain

also remember brooks wasn't tied to the United States until he came on in the World Cup in 2014

 

[munstermuffin]

The statutes i posted are from 2015 and still applicable. And exceptions for war zones are obviously not what i was talking about in my previous posts.

The rule for the overwhelming majority of the cases is that once you are picked by a national team and you accept, that s your team for life. That's why tournaments involving young kids have a disproportionate amount of substitutions tried out.

Guess FIFA are kind of wrong too as look at Jack Grealish in Ireland for an example. But if thats not enough there is countless other examples.
Also if you play in a friendly in soccer your not tied to that country as is highlighted. So only if you play in a senior competitive game.
So effectively your saying once your picked for a team and called up your there for life. That is 100% wrong.
Wilfred Zaha played for England senior team gaining 2 caps in 2013. In 2016 he knew he wasn't going to make English squad regularly and switched to Ivory Coast.

 

[stormmaster1]

Wasn't there a successful England and Lions captain who played for NZ under 21 side?

 

[Bee]

Germany's captain originally is from South Africa.

 

[Car]

Who isn't from our team, though? (No, I know they're not all Saffas, but lots of them are.)

 

[ALJ]

Wasn't there a successful England and Lions captain who played for NZ under 21 side?

Johnson played once for the NZ U21s - it's a while since I read his book but I seem to remember the ABs were trying to bring him into their system with a view to becoming a full AB in the future.

But he wanted to play for England so stopped after the one game.

(at least I think that's what he said - I could be wrong and there could have been more to it that I either don't remember or he didn't say).

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Johnson played once for the NZ U21s - it's a while since I read his book but I seem to remember the ABs were trying to bring him into their system with a view to becoming a full AB in the future.

But he wanted to play for England so stopped after the one game.

(at least I think that's what he said - I could be wrong and there could have been more to it that I either don't remember or he didn't say).

Didn't Johnno go out to New Zealand as a learning experience for a few years from age 18 or so? It'd just be fallacy to claim he was a New Zealander.

Tigs will know the exact detail I'm sure.

 

[ALJ]

Didn't Johnno go out to New Zealand as a learning experience for a few years from age 18 or so? It'd just be fallacy to claim he was a New Zealander.

Tigs will know the exact detail I'm sure.

If I remember rightly, he was invited out there to play rugby (I want to say it was Colin Meads but I might just be making that up).

Definitely not a kiwi but he appeared to have enough promise to become an AB, so...

 

[die_mole]

johnson was an englishman who the kiwis tried to poach

 

[FNS]

If he can play he can be selected as captain, no question there.

As for personal note, playing clearly not born and raised makes some teams better than they should be.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

you aren't tied to a nation until you appear in an actual game with the senior team, friendlies don't count

2 points. First, it does not have to be a senior. I am aware of some counter examples i cannot explain, but at the very least they are very rare. Again, what i said is consistent with the statutes.
And regarding other comments about the "tons of counter examples" it's simply ridiculus. For every counter example you give me i will give you 100 that follow the rule.

In rugby, if i wanted to play for Nation X and Nation X wanted me for play for them it's pretty much a done deal.
In football that is not the case.

Second, i know friendlies do not count, that's why i wrote

''That's why tournaments involving young kids have a disproportionate amount of substitutions tried out."

Navarro Montoya couldn't play for Argentina because he had played for Colombia at youth level and it is common practice in Argentina's Federation to include an unnecessary number of players just to hook them federation wise.

And when i "the rule for the overwhelming majority of cases" still stands, as the number of friendlies as % of total is minimal.

But for the sake of accuracy, let me be more precise If you play for a national side in an official FIFA competition, in the overwhelming majority of cases, you cannot switch federations. In rugby you can.

That gives an unfair advantage to rich countries over poor countries. It's inevitable at club level, but perfectly preventable at national sides.