Future International Replacements

[Peat]

BG8 - Who would you play at 7?

 

[Draggs]

I honestly am struggling to think where James Hook belongs, 21 is what I am going with right now.
I think Henson will play fullback at the Six Nations, Cuthbert has a ways to go. Halfpenny should be our long-term fullback option, but Henson at 15 right now is better than anyone else at 11/114 (save North and Halfpenny).

I will be shocked if Phillips gets more than five caps, and only on Wales tour during the Lions. He is overrated, afraid of contact and prone to stupid errors. His only real asset is pace, and we have a dozen of pacy wings. If we want one dimensional wings than Brew, Czekaj, James are already available. I hope Luke Morgan and Harry Robinson are given a go for their clubs over the 6N. They aren't the biggest players but both have a knack for scoring tries and are certainly though characters. I don't want to rule Will Harries out, as he is our best option for a direct Shane replacement (or as close as possible), but he needs to stay injury-free.

Second row is my biggest concern. We only had Davies and Jones up until this year, when Charteris stepped up. Ian Evans will be an option if he can stay fit, but who knows. Dominic Day has actually impressed me lately, but I don't know if he will have it at international level. Lou Reed is a definite no, unless he puts in a proper shift. The Blues have all of our young locks; Macauley Cook, Matthew Screech (Cardiff RFC), and Cory Hill (Pontypridd).

 

[big ginger 8]

BG8 - Who would you play at 7?

Sorry wasn't thinking about that SO'B has improved there and playing with Ferris instead of McLaughlin means he doesn't have to carry as much we could manage with him there against everyone except Wales. If Dominic Ryan had been able to play this season I'd have tried him there Gilsenan also looks like he could be a good 7. I was more thinking in the long term O'Mahony should maybe be tried there for a match or two. We won't have a proper 7 for the 6n I'd say.

 

[Irishflanker]

For Ireland 7 isn't totally sorted though is it, Jennings hasn't looked up to it at international level, Johnny O'Connor clearly isn't on the list, will Wallace be the player he was? Will O'Brien be the player Wallace was? I'm not quite sure that Faloon is up to international standard ( a la Jenno). POM has mainly been played at 6 and was an 8 afaik for the A team, but has potential to be a real c**t of a 7. does Dom Ryan get enough gametime to be considered, if he can't shift Jennings/Mclaughlin/O'Brien can he be considered, seeing as in reality the 7 position is something that we really need to be looking at now IMO, with most of our proven backrows listing themselves as 6/8's.

 

[big ginger 8]

Ryan's been injured.

 

[coonor]

As much as I like a fetcher 7, I think its more about having a balanced backrow. I think an Ireland backrow or 6)Ferris 7)SOB 8)Heaslip works well because they are all (especially Heaslip) able to attack the breakdown meaning together they do the work of a 7. Add in Healy who can really ruck well and win turnovers, we shouldn't have a problem there. I think with Heaslip at 8 our back row is balanced but if we had a traditional 8 like Faletua or Chabal etc. then we would require a traditional 7.

As for future player, I was wondering what people think about how the new IRFU NIQ players policy will affect Ireland future player prospects. Hopefully young players like Hanrahan will develop quicker but obviously the effects on the provinces could be harsh in the short term.

 

[Peat]

Think even with Ferris there SOB would have to carry, there's just not that many carriers in the Irish side - and tbh, why would you pick SOB if not to put the ball in his hands and push him into people? My current work around would be to tell Heaslip that on attack he's a 7 the moment the ball leaves the scrum, but its not really a long term one.

I like the looks of POM if they turn him into a seven, while O'Donnell was very effective against Ulster until forced off. Have lingering doubts about Ryan's brainpower and allround game for 7. That Connelly lad at Connacht is hyped, can't say I've seen it, but he's a decent size unlike a lot of prospective Irish 7s. Size is why Faloon won't make it as an international without a sea change in his ability - ditto Birch, ditto Gallagher, Ulster are producing too 7s with all the courage and ferocity in the world but just not enough bulk. In general there's a shape I'd look for in a 7 and most of the lads put there aren't squat enough for it. Someone should have told Sean Cronin to play it. I hope someone at Ulster tells Marc Best to play it once he leaves school and is done faffing around.

Haven't seen much of Gilsenan, but do rate Leavy at a possibility.

 

[Peat]

As for future player, I was wondering what people think about how the new IRFU NIQ players policy will affect Ireland future player prospects. Hopefully young players like Hanrahan will develop quicker but obviously the effects on the provinces could be harsh in the short term.

Absolute stone cold insanity but can I suggest that its discussed in a new thread, rather than dragging this one off-topic?

 

[big ginger 8]

Having played Leavy less than a month ago I'd say he's most definately a 6.

Wasn't saying SO'B wouldn't carry he just wouldn't have to do his ridiculous amount of carrying the 7 is able to carry on attack but is expected to link more it's more defense he's needed all forwards and backs to an extent should be able to clear out and secure ball.

In a pack of Healy, Best, Ross, DO'C, P'OC, Ferris, SO'B and Heaslip all apart from DO'C and Ross are good carriers and Ross has been coming on loads in this department lately. you could also add Cronin or eventually Strauss if you wanted even more options (although Best has been brilliant). Though out of that pack Heaslip is the best fetcher followed by Healy. This is admittedly a worry the mini-maul technique was working but then Wales just went to ground early getting quick ball. However I trust Les Kiss to think up a plan B we can go to we still have one of the best defense's in the world. We could just not bother fetching be patient wait for a mismatch in numbers and violently counter-ruck. Not ideal but could work. As said I don't think you need a specific 7 for attack if any player see's someone like Warborton he should immeidiately be put on his ass.

 

[dullonien]

Jamie Roberts - Steve Shingler has been playing well for Irish, though Henson is returning to form VERY quickly.

Why does Roberts need replacing? He's only 25. He has hinted at retiring early to persue his medical career on a full-time basis, but I'm not sure that will happen while he continues to be one of the best centres in world rugby.

 

[Draggs]

Why does Roberts need replacing? He's only 25. He has hinted at retiring early to persue his medical career on a full-time basis, but I'm not sure that will happen while he continues to be one of the best centres in world rugby.

If he does retire it won't be until he is 30. I think he has at least a year left on his contract with the Blues, and he has said that he wants to play in France sometime in his career. Owen Williams at Cardiff RFC is a decent sized centre who could slot in for Roberts down the line. (Corey Allen is another, partnering Williams at 13)

 

[Peat]

Having played Leavy less than a month ago I'd say he's most definately a 6.

Wasn't saying SO'B wouldn't carry he just wouldn't have to do his ridiculous amount of carrying the 7 is able to carry on attack but is expected to link more it's more defense he's needed all forwards and backs to an extent should be able to clear out and secure ball.

In a pack of Healy, Best, Ross, DO'C, P'OC, Ferris, SO'B and Heaslip all apart from DO'C and Ross are good carriers and Ross has been coming on loads in this department lately. you could also add Cronin or eventually Strauss if you wanted even more options (although Best has been brilliant). Though out of that pack Heaslip is the best fetcher followed by Healy. This is admittedly a worry the mini-maul technique was working but then Wales just went to ground early getting quick ball. However I trust Les Kiss to think up a plan B we can go to we still have one of the best defense's in the world. We could just not bother fetching be patient wait for a mismatch in numbers and violently counter-ruck. Not ideal but could work. As said I don't think you need a specific 7 for attack if any player see's someone like Warborton he should immeidiately be put on his ass.

BG8, I cannot agree enough with what you say about 7s in attack, there its more about linking - but this is why I say have Heaslip take that role, as he has the best hands and is the worst carrier of the the three. And you're right enough about defence - particularly as you can't use what you don't have (but I do think ideally you have a fetcher).

I disagree with your analysis of Ireland's carrying, O'Connell's poor, Best has improved massively in these stakes recently but is still fairly average (and too brilliant around the park to drop for Cronin), Healy and Heaslip are both good enough but nothing amazing at international level (and Heaslip will be required to do the donkey work). Plus, there's no one in the backline who can carry like a forward if Trimble isn't selected, and even then he's one man - most backlines these days have 2 or 3 absolute monsters. O'Brien and Ferris are pivotal for Ireland. My analysis is also why I'd get Tuohy in there asap, as he's a very good carrier.

Interesting on Leavy. Was playing 7 for Ireland U18s in the spring and didn't look too bad at it from the telly, but does seem to have the 6 build pat. As good as people say?

 

[Aedaphon]

... I keep forgetting TRF has an equal number of Irish to every other nation combined.

New Zealand have floods of talent, Australia is blessed with a young side (although they're still missing a tight 5), any South Africans lurking around at the moment? I'm curious who to look out for this S15 season.

 

[Peat]

... I keep forgetting TRF has an equal number of Irish to every other nation combined.

New Zealand have floods of talent, Australia is blessed with a young side (although they're still missing a tight 5), any South Africans lurking around at the moment? I'm curious who to look out for this S15 season.

Not that they need a new fly-half, but that Goosen boy is the absolute shiznit. Can play full-back too I believe, and I think SA could do with a better one than they currently have of those.

I'd have said the big question for SA is who replaces Matfield/Botha, both of whom must be coming to the end of their days surely...

 

[Draggs]

Not that they need a new fly-half, but that Goosen boy is the absolute shiznit. Can play full-back too I believe, and I think SA could do with a better one than they currently have of those.

I'd have said the big question for SA is who replaces Matfield/Botha, both of whom must be coming to the end of their days surely...

South Africa need a fullback who isn't just a lump with a boot (Steyn, Daniller). While I think Lambie is better off at 10, putting Lambie and Goosen in the backline, one at 10 and one at 15, would be a good move. Lambie is quicker than what people think and is a great playmaker, I can see him hitting the line with no problem despite not having the pace of a wing. He is also an intelligent playmaker/reader and would be defensively sound. Goosen or Lambie could both make the grade at 10, but they will no doubt opt for Janjties, somehow. I won't rule out Taute just because of his size, but I think someone with a bit more creativity is needed at 15.

SA Backline for 2012?
Hougaard, Lambie/Goosen (Needs SR time first), Aplon/Basson, F Steyn, de Jongh/Sadie, Pietersen, Lambie/Goosen/Taute.

They need some more scrumhalves as well. Ruan has taken a tremendous stride backwards since going north, and Januarie is out of the picture, sadly. McLeod has his ups and downs but I just don't see him making the grade. I don't think Dewaldt Duvenage is a bad player, and could be worth a shot. Vermaak is handy as well, but he will need to get gametime at the Bulls.

 

[coonor]

I have always rated O'Donnell and I would love to see him get more game time. I still like Ryan's dynamic ability, he has alot of pace. In my opinion the game is all about explosive dynamism which requires space, physicality and movement. To exploit this best you need players with a rugby mind thats why I think Heaslip is such a good player but this is why I worry mostly for Ireland's second row prospects. None of them seem to have a great rugby brain which O'Connell has. Obviously he has the experience and hopefully Nagle can get more game time and develop as I feel we really will lack quality in the second row. Connacht's development is so important, if we can get 4 provinces at high level then the provincial system will become more balanced and Connacht will have players in higher contention for Ireland places.

I really can't wait to see the battle for back three places in Ireland in the future with Trimble, Baby Kearney, Big Kearney, Conway, Gilroy, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Carr, O'Halloran, Earls, Zebo etc. all possibly fighting for International jerseys

 

[Aedaphon]

SA Backline for 2012?
Hougaard, Lambie/Goosen (Needs SR time first), Aplon/Basson, F Steyn, de Jongh/Sadie, Pietersen, Lambie/Goosen/Taute.

They need some more scrumhalves as well. Ruan has taken a tremendous stride backwards since going north, and Januarie is out of the picture, sadly. McLeod has his ups and downs but I just don't see him making the grade. I don't think Dewaldt Duvenage is a bad player, and could be worth a shot. Vermaak is handy as well, but he will need to get gametime at the Bulls.

Definitely agree that Lambie needs some time to settle into the 10 shirt, I guess the games against Argentina will definitely open up some time for the Tri-Nations teams to experiment a little more (although they'll still have to be cautious)

What are the rulings for players abroad in SA? Ruan is a good call but they might have difficulty taking him over someone playing in the South African conference

 

[Peat]

Definitely agree that Lambie needs some time to settle into the 10 shirt, I guess the games against Argentina will definitely open up some time for the Tri-Nations teams to experiment a little more (although they'll still have to be cautious)

What are the rulings for players abroad in SA? Ruan is a good call but they might have difficulty taking him over someone playing in the South African conference

They'll take them all day long.

However, Ruan's international form definitley seems to be in a rut. He is playing fantastically for Ulster and I'd hand him a four year contract tomorrow if it were left to me. There seems to be little doubt that he struggles to adjust to the higher speed when returning to 3Ns rugby. I suspect he'll be given another chance to prove he can though, particularly as he offers cover for both half-back positions off the bench.

 

[Draggs]

Let's look at it this way. Butch James is done. Morne offers very little over Patrick and Johan, probably just his goal kicking within 50m. That being said, Lambie was in excellent form with the boot during the first half of the Super XV. Goosen has a hell of a toe on him, and Frans could also hone his boot for shorter ranges. Give any outside half a Saffa pack and they will look world class.

I honestly thought Ruan v Australia in the Tri Nations was the worst international scrum half performance I have seen in a long time, and that is including Phillips 2010/early 2011.
Ruan might be a certaintly for the 20 shirt, as you said, due to his coverage of 9/10 (and even 15!). Not to mention you can put a dedicated centre on the bench if you desire, given that Hougaard can cover wing.

Bring back Lem!

 

[Peat]

Let's look at it this way. Butch James is done. Morne offers very little over Patrick and Johan, probably just his goal kicking within 50m. That being said, Lambie was in excellent form with the boot during the first half of the Super XV. Goosen has a hell of a toe on him, and Frans could also hone his boot for shorter ranges. Give any outside half a Saffa pack and they will look world class.

I honestly thought Ruan v Australia in the Tri Nations was the worst international scrum half performance I have seen in a long time, and that is including Phillips 2010/early 2011.
Ruan might be a certaintly for the 20 shirt, as you said, due to his coverage of 9/10 (and even 15!). Not to mention you can put a dedicated centre on the bench if you desire, given that Hougaard can cover wing.

Bring back Lem!

And yet came back to put in some very good performances. As have many other scrum-halves. No reason Pienaar can't do so, he has the talent to be South Africa's number 1. Although, I'll be honest, I could live with him never playing for the Boks again...

Anyway, agree with most of what you say there.