Guinness Pro 12 2014/15: Round 2

[Peat]

Hypothetically, if all were fit, what kind of midfield would you look to make out of Cave, Marshall and Olding?

Something sexy.

Short term, Cave is probably our best 13, so he gets that shirt, and I think Olding brings more than Skywalker, so he gets the nod at 12. Wouldn't be surprised if Marshall's superior strength and experience made that less straight forwards than it appears, but it's what I'd aim at.

Medium term, things get complicated. I like Cave as a player, I really do, but at the top level he becomes a monkey rather than an organ grinder and we should always be looking to replace monkeys. I really liked what Marshall brought to the 13 shirt last week, first time I've liked him there, and if he can learn the position, then he's a better bet than Cave.

So I'm looking for Marshall to get some game time at 13 with the aim of possibly displacing him. You could do Olding and Marshall the other way about but

a) I prefer the better distributor to be closer in
b) I prefer the stronger man to be further out; the further out, the more likely a player is to be dealing with 1 on 1s where individual strength plays a big part than the common 2 on 1 tackles we now see.

But medium to long term is complicated by the possibility that a slightly slowing Tommy Bowe could move inside as age and a big stockpile of young wingers overtakes him.

But medium to long term complications are many. Many many many. For example, what if Chris Farrell runs amok at Grenoble? He is a guy with a huge potential, and might make a better strike runner at 13 than Marshall. But McCloskey also has big potential for my money, where does he fit into this? Might we see one of Jack Owens or Jacob Stockdale shifted in to 13 long term? Conor McKee and Sam Arnold, our current Ulster U20 centre partnership, have received a lot of plaudits for the Connacht match. Mindyou, Marc Best got a lot of credit for his performances last year with the U20s, nowhere in the set up as far as I know.

I've wandered far off tangent here. So yeah. Olding's a shooting star, so I want to see him given his head, which seems to mean playing at 12. Cave's our best 13. That leaves Marshall in a bit of a hole but if he gets chances at 13 and takes them, he's got a higher ceiling than Cave. But we have so many potential centre options going forwards it would play on my mind when it came to developing Marshall as a 13.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Just realised that the ref was wrong against edinburgh, when Leonardi got the yellow, Simon Zebo jumped and went on leonardi's shoulder, if zebo did not jump it be a fair tackle have a look here

 

[Feicarsinn]

Maybe only having one eye is affecting your depth perception.

 

[big ginger 8]

Seems BBC Alba's commentary team have a lot in common with their NI counterparts.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just realised that the ref was wrong against edinburgh, when Leonardi got the yellow, Simon Zebo jumped and went on leonardi's shoulder, if zebo did not jump it be a fair tackle have a look here

In fairness ref was terrible for both teams. Edinburgh deserved win but Hodges is a joke.

 

[Thingimubob]

In fairness ref was terrible for both teams. Edinburgh deserved win but Hodges is a joke.

Saw a video showing his refereeing at the scrum during that game, was horrible! Ignored pretty clear cut penalties time and time again.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Something sexy.

Short term, Cave is probably our best 13, so he gets that shirt, and I think Olding brings more than Skywalker, so he gets the nod at 12. Wouldn't be surprised if Marshall's superior strength and experience made that less straight forwards than it appears, but it's what I'd aim at.

Medium term, things get complicated. I like Cave as a player, I really do, but at the top level he becomes a monkey rather than an organ grinder and we should always be looking to replace monkeys. I really liked what Marshall brought to the 13 shirt last week, first time I've liked him there, and if he can learn the position, then he's a better bet than Cave.

So I'm looking for Marshall to get some game time at 13 with the aim of possibly displacing him. You could do Olding and Marshall the other way about but

a) I prefer the better distributor to be closer in
b) I prefer the stronger man to be further out; the further out, the more likely a player is to be dealing with 1 on 1s where individual strength plays a big part than the common 2 on 1 tackles we now see.

But medium to long term is complicated by the possibility that a slightly slowing Tommy Bowe could move inside as age and a big stockpile of young wingers overtakes him.

But medium to long term complications are many. Many many many. For example, what if Chris Farrell runs amok at Grenoble? He is a guy with a huge potential, and might make a better strike runner at 13 than Marshall. But McCloskey also has big potential for my money, where does he fit into this? Might we see one of Jack Owens or Jacob Stockdale shifted in to 13 long term? Conor McKee and Sam Arnold, our current Ulster U20 centre partnership, have received a lot of plaudits for the Connacht match. Mindyou, Marc Best got a lot of credit for his performances last year with the U20s, nowhere in the set up as far as I know.

I've wandered far off tangent here. So yeah. Olding's a shooting star, so I want to see him given his head, which seems to mean playing at 12. Cave's our best 13. That leaves Marshall in a bit of a hole but if he gets chances at 13 and takes them, he's got a higher ceiling than Cave. But we have so many potential centre options going forwards it would play on my mind when it came to developing Marshall as a 13.

Farrell / McCloskey would be an absolute huge center pairing, both mammoth players - very unbalanced probably!

Owens most probably won't move to the center - he's definitely a 15, or possibly 14, but he's half as effective at 13. He was put there at Campbell a lot but really didn't work out. As for Mark Best, you're right apparently he isn't close to the set up anymore - was quite surprised when I heard that since there was such a massive hype around him at Schools Cup level. I seen on facebook he was playing rugby in Australia for a good while, doesn't look likely of any return to the Ulster u20's or so.

 

[psychic duck]

In fairness ref was terrible for both teams. Edinburgh deserved win but Hodges is a joke.

Hodges is an awful referee with a well earned reputation as a massive homer with a love of dishing out really soft cards, which is just what he did to Fiji out in Italy whilst not giving a single penalty against Italy until 70 minutes. Hopefully he doesn't manage to work his way onto the RWC referees list.

 

[ruggabee]

Hope Leinster buck up. Nice thread ImScotty

Looking forward to hearing about how Ulster (Olding) and Connacht go.

 

[munstermuffin]

Hodges is an awful referee with a well earned reputation as a massive homer with a love of dishing out really soft cards, which is just what he did to Fiji out in Italy whilst not giving a single penalty against Italy until 70 minutes. Hopefully he doesn't manage to work his way onto the RWC referees list.

But here he wasn't a homer. As I said we deserved to loose but he let them stay offside all day, he let us away with stuff to but what happens is it all turns scrappy and really destroys the game. He just shouldn't be near this level. His communication is terrible too.

Regards this weekend I'm hoping we have Paulie and Cronin back. Copeland was gone to Dublin to try and get a passport as his 1 was stolen Tuesday so hope he can travel too. We have to bounce back after last weekend but also are aware Italy has been kind of a nightmare at times for us in this league.

 

[Peat]

Farrell / McCloskey would be an absolute huge center pairing, both mammoth players - very unbalanced probably!

Owens most probably won't move to the center - he's definitely a 15, or possibly 14, but he's half as effective at 13. He was put there at Campbell a lot but really didn't work out. As for Mark Best, you're right apparently he isn't close to the set up anymore - was quite surprised when I heard that since there was such a massive hype around him at Schools Cup level. I seen on facebook he was playing rugby in Australia for a good while, doesn't look likely of any return to the Ulster u20's or so.

Farrell's a surprisingly good distributor for a man of his size, but yeah, not the most well-balanced!

Thanks for correcting me on Owens, I'd heard people talk about him as a potential 13 - played there for Ireland U19s I think? Could deffo use a full-back.

Best's a weird one - popped up in the Campbell team very young, made a big impression, made the Ireland U-18 team, played a game, got dropped, didn't really appear for Ulster age-grade until u20s, got a lot of praise, got injured, disappears... I think he's too old for the U20s now anyway. I'd imagine he's missed the boat, except there's a fair few lads getting into the academy a few years after age grade or after missing it altogether - McCloskey, Simpson, Warwick... but given the depth there, think he'll probably miss out.

You likely to be at the Ulster U20 match this weekend?

 

[Peat]

Interesting enough Ulster line-up, rotation starts early it seems. I think that front row will emerge as our first choice.

Ulster starting XV & replacements to play Zebre, RaboDirect PRO12, Kingspan Stadium, Friday 12th September, 7.35pm:
(15-9): R Andrew; A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, C Gilroy; I Humphreys, P Marshall;
(1-8): A Warwick, R Best (c), W Herbst, L Stevenson, D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, R Murphy, B Ross, F van der Merwe, R Wilson, M Heaney, S Olding, L Ludik.

 

[profitius]

Munster: Felix Jones - capt, Andrew Conway, Andrew Smith, Ivan Dineen, Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Duncan Casey, Stephen Archer; Dave Foley, Billy Holland; CJ Stander, Tommy O'Donnell, Robin Copeland

Replacements: Kevin O'Byrne, John Ryan, BJ Botha, Donncha O'Callaghan, Sean Dougall, Cathal Sheridan, Johnny Holland, Ronan O'Mahony


Poc gone home for personal reasons. The rumours are flying already.

 

[lynam1104]

Munster: Felix Jones - capt, Andrew Conway, Andrew Smith, Ivan Dineen, Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Duncan Casey, Stephen Archer; Dave Foley, Billy Holland; CJ Stander, Tommy O'Donnell, Robin Copeland

Replacements: Kevin O'Byrne, John Ryan, BJ Botha, Donncha O'Callaghan, Sean Dougall, Cathal Sheridan, Johnny Holland, Ronan O'Mahony


Poc gone home for personal reasons. The rumours are flying already.

Such as?

Also good to see Copeland made it or are they just hoping? Munster need to find a better 3rd choice 9 than William, the guy is useless. Both O'Leary and Stringer would've been better to keep around than him.

With the Ulster centre issue where does Payne fit in? The way I see it hes no where near as effective there yet I'm sure Joe wants a look at him. I tend to agree with Peat in having the 2nd play maker at 12 working better. I think Olding has the ability to become Irelands inside centre for the next 10 or so years and hope this season is where that begins.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

the edinburgh team for tomorrow has been named
15 Jack Cuthbert
14 Sam Beard
13 Phil Burleigh
12 Andries Strauss
11 Nick McLennan
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Sean Kennedy

1 Alasdair Dickinson
2 Ross Ford (Captain)
3 John Andress
4 Fraser McKenzie
5 Ollie Atkins
6 Tomas Leonardi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Cornell Du Preez

Substitutes
16 James Hilterbrand
17 Rory Sutherland
18 W P Nel
19 Anton Bresler
20 Mike Coman
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Grayson Hart
23 Joaquin Dominguez

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Farrell's a surprisingly good distributor for a man of his size, but yeah, not the most well-balanced!

Thanks for correcting me on Owens, I'd heard people talk about him as a potential 13 - played there for Ireland U19s I think? Could deffo use a full-back.

Best's a weird one - popped up in the Campbell team very young, made a big impression, made the Ireland U-18 team, played a game, got dropped, didn't really appear for Ulster age-grade until u20s, got a lot of praise, got injured, disappears... I think he's too old for the U20s now anyway. I'd imagine he's missed the boat, except there's a fair few lads getting into the academy a few years after age grade or after missing it altogether - McCloskey, Simpson, Warwick... but given the depth there, think he'll probably miss out.

You likely to be at the Ulster U20 match this weekend?

Yeah it is impressive considering Farrell played second row for most of his school years!

Think he might have played there a few times, not sure how it worked out with the u19's - he's played 14 for them too.

Best is coming 21 I think so yeah it's a bit too late now, he's probably too heavy as well for a centre, he's a big guy.

Nah I think I'm going to be at the u19's match, know a few of the guys playing. Are you over?

 

[munstermuffin]

Munster: Felix Jones - capt, Andrew Conway, Andrew Smith, Ivan Dineen, Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; James Cronin, Duncan Casey, Stephen Archer; Dave Foley, Billy Holland; CJ Stander, Tommy O'Donnell, Robin Copeland

Replacements: Kevin O'Byrne, John Ryan, BJ Botha, Donncha O'Callaghan, Sean Dougall, Cathal Sheridan, Johnny Holland, Ronan O'Mahony


Poc gone home for personal reasons. The rumours are flying already.

Don't believe every rumour

 

[Peat]

With the Ulster centre issue where does Payne fit in? The way I see it hes no where near as effective there yet I'm sure Joe wants a look at him. I tend to agree with Peat in having the 2nd play maker at 12 working better. I think Olding has the ability to become Irelands inside centre for the next 10 or so years and hope this season is where that begins.

He's fighting with Cave for the shirt. To be honest, I'm becoming agnostic on the issue. Cave might have an edge, because he's been playing there regularly and more physically confrontational than Payne, but Cave's not so good as to be undroppable and Payne was a very good 13 in Super Rugby. Yeah, that was a while ago, but if Kiss/next coach/Schmidt reckon Payne will be good enough given a run, I'm willing to trust them. I think that makes me a rarity amongst Ulster fans mind. I'd still pick Cave tomorrow due to greater familiarity with the role.

My guess that Schmidt isn't completely sold, has Henshaw in mind as his first choice, and is reasonably happy for Ulster to play whoever there as long as they're Irish.

Yeah it is impressive considering Farrell played second row for most of his school years!

Think he might have played there a few times, not sure how it worked out with the u19's - he's played 14 for them too.

Best is coming 21 I think so yeah it's a bit too late now, he's probably too heavy as well for a centre, he's a big guy.

Nah I think I'm going to be at the u19's match, know a few of the guys playing. Are you over?

Don't think Allen was involved with the academy set up until 21 or so... but yeah, there's enough talent he won't be missed.

Sadly not, trapped by my sister's birthday. Just looking for more people to tap up to tell me how the Age Grade teams are doing!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Newport Gwent Dragons: Lee Byrne (capt), Hallam Amos, Tyler Morgan, Jack Dixon, Aled Brew, Jason Tovey, Jonathan Evans; Boris Stankovich, Elliot Dee, Lloyd Fairbrother, Ian Gough, Rynard Landman, Lewis Evans, Nic Cudd, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: T. Rhys Thomas, Owen Evans, Dan Way, Andrew Coombs, Andy Powell, Richie Rees, Angus O'Brien, Tom Prydie.


Ospreys: Dan Evans, Jeff Hassler, Andrew Bishop, Josh Matavesi, Eli Walker, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Nicky Smith, Scott Baldwin, Aaron Jarvis, Lloyd Peers (Capt), Rynier Bernardo, Joe Bearman, James King, Dan Baker

Replacements: Sam Parry, Duncan Jones, Daniel Suter, Tyler Ardron, Morgan Allen, Martin Roberts, Sam Davies, Hanno Dirksen



Referee: Nigel Owens (WRU)

Assistant referees: Gwynn Morris, Dan Jones (both WRU)

TMO: Derek Bevan (WRU)

 

[psychic duck]

Who does the Irish TV matches these days. Still BBC NI, RTE and TG4 doing them?