Guinness Pro 12 2014/15: Three changes for next year

[Bluemoon]

I think that is the big mistake, as it (a) really stops the WRU from wholly investing in the regions, (b) stops the WRU tweaking the regions placement and (c) the spectators don't see the regions as branches of the WRU but of units more affiliated to the old clubs they evolved out of, with all the rivalries that come with that... which is good - if the rivalry is with another region, bad if within one region.

I suppose that was one of the big mistakes, but you have to understand that when the regions were formed the WRU had next to no money to invest. They had a huge debt with the stadium ,and just did not have the resources to develop 5 (or even 1) team, with stadiums, infrastructure, staffing resources etc, even with the existing structures. Benefactors had to step in with assurances from the WRU that there would be centralised funding. The majority of the member clubs at the WRU agreed to it, as there was no other way.

However, the choice of the professional clubs names and identities I'll be happy to discuss in a different light. At the time I really wanted Cardiff and Ponty to create what would have been a powerful region, under the guise of South Glamorgan or something else appropriate. However, the money men had the biggest say, as without them, the club system would have continued.

There's no turning back now. Professionalism has moved on drastically and there are huge contracts with sponsorships, historic debts, infrastructures etc. Unless Bill Gates decides to become a Welsh rugby fan, we have to work with the structures we have and be done with this bickering.

 

[Jerry Blue]

You'd have to model the league like Super rugby which would mean less games but the ability to do 2 Judgement days a year without losing a league home game against your rivals also means the other countries could have their own Judgement day or a magic weekend style event.
For the WRU to buy them all out would cost a fortune, though the way the Scarlets are in debt they might end up being WRU bought and the WRU do own half of the Dragons. If they could get more money one day through TV deals going up then maybe the Warriors could be revived and that might satisfy some of the disenfranchised fans.

 

[Peat]

Thing is, the Irish don't really have an interest in judgement day style events, and don't really have an interest in less games either. I think the Welsh have an interest in the Irish having less games, as it increases the likelihood of facing the top rank internationals and having a better product to sell, but as long as the Irish get good crowds at home, a good flow from the academy, and good league positions, it's all a-ok.

Needless to say, the Scots and Italians can't do judgement days. I suppose you could invite both Scottish teams to play both Italian teams on the same day in a big stadium and hope that attracts big travelling support, but that's one hell of a hope.

Wales really need some prolonged success outside of the Ospreys and I'm not sure where that's coming from tbh.

 

[Amiga500]

I suppose the first thing that would help would be for certain clubs playing in, and individuals associated with, the league to stop running it down. Why is a potential match going punter going to fork out their time and money if all they read in the papers or see on TV is members of the league talking about it as crap and not worthwhile?
Its not much, but it is a start.

Next thing would be increasing the number of first-teamers turning out regularly (I'll freely admit the IRFU player management scheme is a bit of a ****** for this). I know some will enjoy watching youngsters prove themselves at a higher level, but not all will, and you can't do it all the time before people get sick of it.

Refereeing; some of the officials are utterly shocking (looking at you George Clancy, I could look at many others) with zero empathy for the game, reducing it to a stop-start mess and nullifying the attacking team's impetus. Start by hammering at any defensive breakdown offences in the first 10 minutes to open the game up.

Let the players be a bit more controversial; less of this "yeah, Liam Williams is a fine player and we will have to watch out on Friday night" and more of "that wee rat got me off the ball last time out, he better have his wing mirrors on Friday night 'cos I'm coming for him". Nothing like a bit of needle to get the juices flowing (see SkySports patented HypeMachine and boxing).

Fix home match games for consistent times. Ulster love their Friday nights at Ravenhill. Its now a staple part of the weekend entertainment. Munster love their teary eyed misty Saturday evenings. Others? Well... I think there is one of the Welsh regions go for Friday nights too, but the others are all over the place. Set it in stone guys, give the punter the chance to plan their weekends around it well in advance. Having it at night time also brings it into the evening entertainment options for people as well. 2pm on a Saturday might be ok to entertain kids at the weekend, but it certainly can f**k things right up for those playing, and for those busy working.

 

[Jerry Blue]

But surely stronger Welsh, Italian and Scottish teams are better for the Irish? Less games would also mean they could rest players more for the internationals. The problem is though if the league isn't good for the other teams they will want to leave and could leave the Irish on their own. The welsh teams tried to leave last year and now with BT Sport sponsoring the Welsh teams and the Scottish teams I wouldn't be surprised if secretly they are trying to get a British league together especially as the PRL wants to lock theirs out. The only side who could get any prolonged success is the Blues but it would mean spending money and the board actually sticking to a long term plan and leave the coach to get on with it. Will be interesting to see how Danny Wilson gets on. Hopefully we've turned a corner. The Dragons seem to get their best players cherry picked by other teams and the Scarlets are just happy enough to get into Champions Cup but are too much in debt to go any further.

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Cardiff seem to get bigger crowds on a Friday night people make it part of a night out in the city. The Ospreys basically have to play when Swansea city tell them suppose that's the curse of sharing with a Premier league team. Dragons and Scarlets crowds not sure about really. I do wonder if we would be better off not showing the home games on TV in Wales as maybe this could encourage people to go more. Dropping the prices might help or do some sort of family deal also and maybe a student deal as Cardiff especially has a large student population.

 

[valley commando]

Yeah and JPR knows it ain't going to happen! They are 4 privately owned clubs not union owned plus Wales has never had regional rugby only club rugby. Cardiff get good crowds when they are successful just like any other team plus doesn't every team buy trophies? Would Toulon be 3 times European champions or the Ospreys 4 times league winners or the Blues be the only welsh team to win a European trophy without spending lots of money? I'm sure Ponty has gained it's trophies by spending lots of money. If you also notice the crowds for the pro teams are big when they play each other and in Europe's top competition but dwindle playing the Irish, Scottish and Italian teams. Change the league so the welsh teams play each other more and then get more crowds.

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Maybe one of the changes for the Blues would be to drop the prices and do student deals as their are a lot of them in Cardiff!

Drop the prices, make it free or pay people to come and watch you still won't get any more through the gate.
How about a referendum, put it to the people, 2 choices keep it as is or have East and West regions, the vast majority would vote East and West.
People from outside the bubble that is Welsh rugby just don't understand the depth of feeling that runs through the country, its unlike any other and cant be compared to Ireland or Scotland as some have argued on this forum.
There is no doubt that unlike Scotland 2 regions would strengthen Wales and also lead to European success, as I've said the main stumbling block is that the WRUin would run scared of the Thomas brothers taking it to court.

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You do realise that Valley Commando is nothing but a massively deluded lying troll?

I'm stood up not lying and I realise that your just a wind up merchant.

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Thing is, the Irish don't really have an interest in judgement day style events, and don't really have an interest in less games either. I think the Welsh have an interest in the Irish having less games, as it increases the likelihood of facing the top rank internationals and having a better product to sell, but as long as the Irish get good crowds at home, a good flow from the academy, and good league positions, it's all a-ok.

Needless to say, the Scots and Italians can't do judgement days. I suppose you could invite both Scottish teams to play both Italian teams on the same day in a big stadium and hope that attracts big travelling support, but that's one hell of a hope.

Wales really need some prolonged success outside of the Ospreys and I'm not sure where that's coming from tbh.

The reason the Ospreys worked is because the fans see it as a region, the other regions are perceived as stand alone clubs so don't and won't attract fresh support.

 

[chippieolamus]

There is no doubt that unlike Scotland 2 regions would strengthen Wales and also lead to European success, as I've said the main stumbling block is that the WRUin would run scared of the Thomas brothers taking it to court.

Can you explain why Wales having 2 regions would be so different to Scotland? 2 regions means less opportunities for players to play, so less players get regular game time at a top level, leading to less depth in the national teams, as Scotland are experiencing. I don't see why Wales would end up differently, especially considering Scotland has a larger population so probably (not 100% about this) greater playing numbers.

 

[Thingimubob]

Drop the prices, make it free or pay people to come and watch you still won't get any more through the gate.
How about a referendum, put it to the people, 2 choices keep it as is or have East and West regions, the vast majority would vote East and West.
People from outside the bubble that is Welsh rugby just don't understand the depth of feeling that runs through the country, its unlike any other and cant be compared to Ireland or Scotland as some have argued on this forum.
There is no doubt that unlike Scotland 2 regions would strengthen Wales and also lead to European success, as I've said the main stumbling block is that the WRUin would run scared of the Thomas brothers taking it to court.

Speak for the people now is it? Really pulling this stuff out of nowhere mate...

I'm not convinced at all that cutting teams down would strengthen Wales - less of a chance for players to break into the professional games, leading to yet more players leaving Wales for opportunities in other leagues.

The 8 team feeder league isn't a terrible idea though, but only if they find some way of ensuring the the quality of rugby is good enough for the players to step up to the top level - it simply isn't at the moment.

 

[Bluemoon]

Drop the prices, make it free or pay people to come and watch you still won't get any more through the gate.
How about a referendum, put it to the people, 2 choices keep it as is or have East and West regions, the vast majority would vote East and West.
People from outside the bubble that is Welsh rugby just don't understand the depth of feeling that runs through the country, its unlike any other and cant be compared to Ireland or Scotland as some have argued on this forum.
There is no doubt that unlike Scotland 2 regions would strengthen Wales and also lead to European success, as I've said the main stumbling block is that the WRUin would run scared of the Thomas brothers taking it to court.

Referendum? Two regions owned solely by the WRU? Even if it was to happen the four regions all have historical large debts with their benefactors, the WRU would have to take on all of that debt, as well as take on the costs of running the two teams. It would cripple the WRU regardless of the TV monies or gate revenues you talk about. Each year, the teams rely on the benefactors to be guarantors to the debts they owe. Without the benefactors, we will have no professional teams and there isn't the money to do it with the WRU on their own. The Thomas brothers would have to go to court as they are owed millions of pounds by Cardiff RFC ltd. The Scarlets have no money and huge debts.

Even if you ignore the necessity for private ownership, by having two teams you are drastically reducing the number of players exposed to high-level domestic rugby, week in week out. Two teams would be madness. If you look at team Wales, one of the reasons they are doing well is because the pro teams have brought players though.

Valley, you talk about the emotion running through the country, I think you'll find it's mainly running through Ponty and a lot of Wales are waiting to move on.

 

[valley commando]

Can you explain why Wales having 2 regions would be so different to Scotland? 2 regions means less opportunities for players to play, so less players get regular game time at a top level, leading to less depth in the national teams, as Scotland are experiencing. I don't see why Wales would end up differently, especially considering Scotland has a larger population so probably (not 100% about this) greater playing numbers.

Not sure on the numbers currently but they won't have changed much since 2011, at that time Wales had 22,408 senior players and Scotland 11,687, its a fair assumption based on those figures that Wales will have roughly twice as many pro players than Scotland.
Welsh players aren't restricted to the same 'restraint of trade' restrictions as England ie Gats picks players no matter where they play their rugby, so I feel along with 2 strong regions (East and West) together with at least a squads worth of players playing outside of Wales there are more than enough players getting quality game time.
It wouldn't work for every country, but I think Wales are benefitting greatly from certain players plying their trade in England and France.

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Referendum? Two regions owned solely by the WRU? Even if it was to happen the four regions all have historical large debts with their benefactors, the WRU would have to take on all of that debt, as well as take on the costs of running the two teams. It would cripple the WRU regardless of the TV monies or gate revenues you talk about. Each year, the teams rely on the benefactors to be guarantors to the debts they owe. Without the benefactors, we will have no professional teams and there isn't the money to do it with the WRU on their own. The Thomas brothers would have to go to court as they are owed millions of pounds by Cardiff RFC ltd. The Scarlets have no money and huge debts.

Even if you ignore the necessity for private ownership, by having two teams you are drastically reducing the number of players exposed to high-level domestic rugby, week in week out. Two teams would be madness. If you look at team Wales, one of the reasons they are doing well is because the pro teams have brought players though.

Valley, you talk about the emotion running through the country, I think you'll find it's mainly running through Ponty and a lot of Wales are waiting to move on.

With respect I don't see anyone else in Wales apart from Blues supporters backing your side of the debate and as I pointed out before look at other clubs fan forums in the valleys and you'll see its far from just Ponty that feel like this.

 

[profitius]

The reason the Ospreys worked is because the fans see it as a region, the other regions are perceived as stand alone clubs so don't and won't attract fresh support.

Hit the nail on the head.

If you're going to do something, do it right. When they created the regions they made a balls of it. It's like cutting corners when building a house. There will be problems down the road.

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But surely stronger Welsh, Italian and Scottish teams are better for the Irish? Less games would also mean they could rest players more for the internationals. The problem is though if the league isn't good for the other teams they will want to leave and could leave the Irish on their own. The welsh teams tried to leave last year and now with BT Sport sponsoring the Welsh teams and the Scottish teams I wouldn't be surprised if secretly they are trying to get a British league together especially as the PRL wants to lock theirs out.

Why isn't the league good for other teams? Glasgow fans would beg to differ and funnily enough Wales have won the 6 nations three times in recent years.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

There is not any comparison between the Welsh and Scottish domestic game, far more players playing at a better standard in Wales, so not a valid argument

Not sure about mate.

They're are more players playing at a good standard because they're are 4 welsh teams in the pro 12, If Scotland has 4 teams in the pro 12 we would be about the same standards as The Welsh and the Irish. Not joking either they're are good players playing in the BT Premiership (the top rugby league in Scotland for those who don't know) who have not got professional contracts to Edinburgh or Glasgow. There is also young players in Edinburgh and Glasgow who will take a while to get to the Starting 15's because off more experienced players if they get game time they will be probably better than them. More teams create opportunities for younger players.

Like look at a comparison to our national team 10 years ago when we had 3 pro teams to now when we just have 2. We were alot more competitive and we could beat any team in the six nations if we play well. Now we haven't won a single game in the last six nations and struggle in it too and i'm going to admit, it will get worst in 10 years time.

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Hit the nail on the head.

If you're going to do something, do it right. When they created the regions they made a balls of it. It's like cutting corners when building a house. There will be problems down the road.

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Why isn't the league good for other teams? Glasgow fans would beg to differ and funnily enough Wales have won the 6 nations three times in recent years.

so this is what the regions look like........

 

[Peat]

But surely stronger Welsh, Italian and Scottish teams are better for the Irish? Less games would also mean they could rest players more for the internationals. The problem is though if the league isn't good for the other teams they will want to leave and could leave the Irish on their own. The welsh teams tried to leave last year and now with BT Sport sponsoring the Welsh teams and the Scottish teams I wouldn't be surprised if secretly they are trying to get a British league together especially as the PRL wants to lock theirs out. The only side who could get any prolonged success is the Blues but it would mean spending money and the board actually sticking to a long term plan and leave the coach to get on with it. Will be interesting to see how Danny Wilson gets on. Hopefully we've turned a corner. The Dragons seem to get their best players cherry picked by other teams and the Scarlets are just happy enough to get into Champions Cup but are too much in debt to go any further.

Yeah and no. Tbh - weak teams mean the Irish teams can stroll the Pro 12 with most of their best players playing cameos and more games means more crowds for earning money (as long as the crowds show, which they do) and more chances for the kids to come through, which is critical.

The issue for the Irish isn't the way things are, it's the way things are changing. Nevermind the risk of others leaving the league, the increased money in England and France is tilting the game. There's a common call among the online Irish rugby fraternity that the internationals pay the bills, so sure you give the internationals priority. Issue is the bills are rising above what internationals can pay and there's not a lot more growth available there. There seems a very real chance to me that the Irish get left behind by what's happening. The way to avoid that is for the Pro 12 to be a far more profitable enterprise - and that's where a stronger Wales and Italy come into it. But if there were no external pressures? Yeah, who cares how strong the others are as long as we get ours...

 

[Bluemoon]

so this is what the regions look like........

Yes. But, it wasn't the original set up, where just above Cardiff Blues was the Celtic Warriors, which folded because the finance/fans/resources weren't there. The player development responsibilities of the CW region were shared between Ospreys and the Blues. Bridgend is like Ospreylia now, and I feel a lot have supported them. Pontypridd on the other hand are the victims of the Cardiff Blues evil organisation, despite receiving a number of players, academy systems and attempts to forge a relationship with them. Cardiff cannot change their name or their stadium, as the people who own them, pay for them and set them up did so to represent Cardiff and the Vale.

 

[Jerry Blue]

Their will be no East or West regions, if Wales went to 2 pro teams they would be named CARDIFF and SWANSEA but that is never happening as it would kill Welsh rugby but Ponty would like that. Ponty and its fans would not give a crap about injustice, fairness and the rest of Welsh rugby if they were still a fully professional team playing in the Pro 12 you would be as quiet as mice! As a Blues fan I will admit that Cardiff could have done more to try and include Ponty in the identity of the franchise maybe calling it Cardiff and Valleys Blues? and having the shirt as blue and black and maybe came up with a compromise in 2012 say 1 league game and 1 LV cup game at Sardis road. I now realize that this would not have been enough for Ponty fans as they would have eventually demanded the Cardiff be dropped and the franchise completely moved to Sardis road. Well needles to say i'm pretty sure now that Ponty will never play in the Pro 12 or if there is one a British and Irish league because i'm pretty sure that the Thomas family will make sure any Blues A team/Select XV or a new Valleys rugby franchise will play in Merthyr. Why do think the sudden interest in Merthyr RFC? I would not be surprised if all the academy players and loan players were sent to Cardiff rfc and Merthyr from next year onwards. Unfortunately the attitude of Pontypridd RFC and it's fans has just served to alienate and annoy most of the rugby fans of Wales as contrary to what Ponty and it's fans say they only speak for themselves as I have never heard any complain about no pro team in North Wales?
Ponty on average get a league gate of 1500. The Blues average this year was 7500 and this in what was an awful season so the only way is up! Oh the equivalent of Ponty getting 5000 for a B&I cup semi-final to the Blues is 35,000 in the Heineken cup quarter final in the Millenium.

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Surely the IRFU could use it's provinces to generate more money. With rugby on the up in America surely there is an opportunity for the provinces to play games in the US. Play in Boston, Chicago and New York where there are a big Irish-American communities. Heard London Irish were planning to play an Aviva premiership game in New York at the Met Life stadium (82,000 seater) near St Patricks day. London Irish aren't really Irish so if they could pull it off then real Irish teams would have no problems. Maybe Ireland could also have a 4th autumn international like Wales and England and they probably won't have the problem with player release. Honestly i can see a British and Irish league as the price for votes for Ireland to host the world cup in 2023.

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Glasgow have done well and are a model for all clubs but Edinburgh still struggle in the league(though they did well in Europe this year) though playing in Murrayfield don't help and the Italian teams aren't very competitive they seem to take a step forward then 2 back and the Welsh teams apart from the Ospreys might as well go home when the Irish turn up. The fact that Wales has won 3 six nations is the astonishing fact about Welsh regional rugby. I think with a bit of injection of cash then the Welsh teams could compete with anyone but where do they get the cash from? Can't see Sky paying anymore? or the BBC?

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So when will Scotland go back to 3 teams? What happened to Caledonia Reds playing in Aberdeen? And the map should really take North Wales off the Scarlets as they stopped playing up there. Can't see why each region can't play a home game up in North Wales.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Their will be no East or West regions, if Wales went to 2 pro teams they would be named CARDIFF and SWANSEA but that is never happening as it would kill Welsh rugby but Ponty would like that. Ponty and its fans would not give a crap about injustice, fairness and the rest of Welsh rugby if they were still a fully professional team playing in the Pro 12 you would be as quiet as mice! As a Blues fan I will admit that Cardiff could have done more to try and include Ponty in the identity of the franchise maybe calling it Cardiff and Valleys Blues? and having the shirt as blue and black and maybe came up with a compromise in 2012 say 1 league game and 1 LV cup game at Sardis road. I now realize that this would not have been enough for Ponty fans as they would have eventually demanded the Cardiff be dropped and the franchise completely moved to Sardis road. Well needles to say i'm pretty sure now that Ponty will never play in the Pro 12 or if there is one a British and Irish league because i'm pretty sure that the Thomas family will make sure any Blues A team/Select XV or a new Valleys rugby franchise will play in Merthyr. Why do think the sudden interest in Merthyr RFC? I would not be surprised if all the academy players and loan players were sent to Cardiff rfc and Merthyr from next year onwards. Unfortunately the attitude of Pontypridd RFC and it's fans has just served to alienate and annoy most of the rugby fans of Wales as contrary to what Ponty and it's fans say they only speak for themselves as I have never heard any complain about no pro team in North Wales?
Ponty on average get a league gate of 1500. The Blues average this year was 7500 and this in what was an awful season so the only way is up! Oh the equivalent of Ponty getting 5000 for a B&I cup semi-final to the Blues is 35,000 in the Heineken cup quarter final in the Millenium.

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Surely the IRFU could use it's provinces to generate more money. With rugby on the up in America surely there is an opportunity for the provinces to play games in the US. Play in Boston, Chicago and New York where there are a big Irish-American communities. Heard London Irish were planning to play an Aviva premiership game in New York at the Met Life stadium (82,000 seater) near St Patricks day. London Irish aren't really Irish so if they could pull it off then real Irish teams would have no problems. Maybe Ireland could also have a 4th autumn international like Wales and England and they probably won't have the problem with player release. Honestly i can see a British and Irish league as the price for votes for Ireland to host the world cup in 2023.

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Glasgow have done well and are a model for all clubs but Edinburgh still struggle in the league(though they did well in Europe this year) though playing in Murrayfield don't help and the Italian teams aren't very competitive they seem to take a step forward then 2 back and the Welsh teams apart from the Ospreys might as well go home when the Irish turn up. The fact that Wales has won 3 six nations is the astonishing fact about Welsh regional rugby. I think with a bit of injection of cash then the Welsh teams could compete with anyone but where do they get the cash from? Can't see Sky paying anymore? or the BBC?

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So when will Scotland go back to 3 teams? What happened to Caledonia Reds playing in Aberdeen? And the map should really take North Wales off the Scarlets as they stopped playing up there. Can't see why each region can't play a home game up in North Wales.

they're still about they're just not professional anymore because the SRU cannot fund them, Like the Border Reivers SRU struggle to pay for them so they disbanded them.

 

[valley commando]

Their will be no East or West regions, if Wales went to 2 pro teams they would be named CARDIFF and SWANSEA but that is never happening as it would kill Welsh rugby but Ponty would like that. Ponty and its fans would not give a crap about injustice, fairness and the rest of Welsh rugby if they were still a fully professional team playing in the Pro 12 you would be as quiet as mice! As a Blues fan I will admit that Cardiff could have done more to try and include Ponty in the identity of the franchise maybe calling it Cardiff and Valleys Blues? and having the shirt as blue and black and maybe came up with a compromise in 2012 say 1 league game and 1 LV cup game at Sardis road. I now realize that this would not have been enough for Ponty fans as they would have eventually demanded the Cardiff be dropped and the franchise completely moved to Sardis road. Well needles to say i'm pretty sure now that Ponty will never play in the Pro 12 or if there is one a British and Irish league because i'm pretty sure that the Thomas family will make sure any Blues A team/Select XV or a new Valleys rugby franchise will play in Merthyr. Why do think the sudden interest in Merthyr RFC? I would not be surprised if all the academy players and loan players were sent to Cardiff rfc and Merthyr from next year onwards. Unfortunately the attitude of Pontypridd RFC and it's fans has just served to alienate and annoy most of the rugby fans of Wales as contrary to what Ponty and it's fans say they only speak for themselves as I have never heard any complain about no pro team in North Wales?
Ponty on average get a league gate of 1500. The Blues average this year was 7500 and this in what was an awful season so the only way is up! Oh the equivalent of Ponty getting 5000 for a B&I cup semi-final to the Blues is 35,000 in the Heineken cup quarter final in the Millenium.

- - - Updated - - -

Surely the IRFU could use it's provinces to generate more money. With rugby on the up in America surely there is an opportunity for the provinces to play games in the US. Play in Boston, Chicago and New York where there are a big Irish-American communities. Heard London Irish were planning to play an Aviva premiership game in New York at the Met Life stadium (82,000 seater) near St Patricks day. London Irish aren't really Irish so if they could pull it off then real Irish teams would have no problems. Maybe Ireland could also have a 4th autumn international like Wales and England and they probably won't have the problem with player release. Honestly i can see a British and Irish league as the price for votes for Ireland to host the world cup in 2023.

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Glasgow have done well and are a model for all clubs but Edinburgh still struggle in the league(though they did well in Europe this year) though playing in Murrayfield don't help and the Italian teams aren't very competitive they seem to take a step forward then 2 back and the Welsh teams apart from the Ospreys might as well go home when the Irish turn up. The fact that Wales has won 3 six nations is the astonishing fact about Welsh regional rugby. I think with a bit of injection of cash then the Welsh teams could compete with anyone but where do they get the cash from? Can't see Sky paying anymore? or the BBC?

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So when will Scotland go back to 3 teams? What happened to Caledonia Reds playing in Aberdeen? And the map should really take North Wales off the Scarlets as they stopped playing up there. Can't see why each region can't play a home game up in North Wales.

You are such a condescending smug ------- Its a case of money talks, cardiff always buy their way out of trouble, they are nothing more than playground bullies this latest saga with Merthyr is another snide underhand way of getting their own way and they don't give a **** about years of tradition and who they step on to get what they want.

 

[Jerry Blue]

Smug blank? Yes generally the teams with the most money tend to win things look at Saracens and Toulon and Leinster. The Thomas family want to promote rugby in their home town Merthyr how is that snide and underhand because they are promoting a team in the Valleys? In the end the Blues will need options to play some games away from Cardiff especially if the Arms Park is knocked down and rebuilt. If the Blues turned up at Sardis road to play then i'm sure the gates will be locked and Ponty will accuse them of disrespect! Tradition went out of the window the moment the sport went professional that's why the WRU decided to go for franchises because the traditional system of clubs was going bankrupt. Yes there has been problems generally because I think people expect to much of the Welsh teams as in the end 4 clubs operate win the same size catchment area population wise as say Northampton does. As for bullying how can Cardiff Blues bully a team that is not in the same competition as them and is a feeder team to them? The Blues mission is not to destroy Pontypridd RFC as they tried to work them. I'm sure that from now on the Blues will just ignore Ponty. I'm sure as well that the other teams in the Premiership feel Ponty are trying to bully them in to getting Welsh rugby structured to suit Ponty. If Ponty were a pro 12 team you would not give a crap about the rest of Welsh rugby!

 

[valley commando]

Smug blank? Yes generally the teams with the most money tend to win things look at Saracens and Toulon and Leinster. The Thomas family want to promote rugby in their home town Merthyr how is that snide and underhand because they are promoting a team in the Valleys? In the end the Blues will need options to play some games away from Cardiff especially if the Arms Park is knocked down and rebuilt. If the Blues turned up at Sardis road to play then i'm sure the gates will be locked and Ponty will accuse them of disrespect! Tradition went out of the window the moment the sport went professional that's why the WRU decided to go for franchises because the traditional system of clubs was going bankrupt. Yes there has been problems generally because I think people expect to much of the Welsh teams as in the end 4 clubs operate win the same size catchment area population wise as say Northampton does. As for bullying how can Cardiff Blues bully a team that is not in the same competition as them and is a feeder team to them? The Blues mission is not to destroy Pontypridd RFC as they tried to work them. I'm sure that from now on the Blues will just ignore Ponty. I'm sure as well that the other teams in the Premiership feel Ponty are trying to bully them in to getting Welsh rugby structured to suit Ponty. If Ponty were a pro 12 team you would not give a crap about the rest of Welsh rugby!

FYI, I do give a crap about the rest of Welsh rugby, I live in the Midlands at the moment and this last season apart from Ponty I have been to watch the Ospreys and Dragons once each, also I have watched the following clubs at their ground in their respective leagues, Llanharan and Newbridge in the championship, Nelson in league 1 East, Bala and Pwllheli in league 1 North, Beddau in league 1 East Central and finally Porthmadoc, Welshpool and Bangor in league 3 North.
It does now seem that cardiff/Thomas bros are trying their best to bully Ponty into submission with these Merthyr plans.
Your comments re catchment of regions similar to Saints in England further fuels my argument of 2 super teams East and West which the public would be behind and would bring European success.

 

[Bluemoon]

It does now seem that cardiff/Thomas bros are trying their best to bully Ponty into submission with these Merthyr plans.

Submission to what exactly?

Or do you think they are trying to invest in a semi-pro team north of the M4 where they could try foster a useful working relationship to develop players in the region? Particularly as the strength of Merythr will be by far the strongest semi-pro team in Wales if the signings go ahead. Seasoned internationals, plus a number young players from the Valleys, will be hard to stop. I think you probably need to expect Ponty players being signed by the Blues and handed out to Merthyr in the coming years.