Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Rumpi]

None of this will ever work as long you have regions masquerading as clubs. Simple really.

Think a British & irish league would be a genuinely exciting competition, it would be infinitely more appealing then the dross that is the rabo in its current state, it would be hugely competitive. i say that as someone who has huge respect & admiration for the English club game.

I can understand your concerns, why would independent clubs pit themselves against union financed provinces? The IRFU would have to agree to a salary cap for each province, which might explain the rumour why the IRFU are stalling on this, a salary cap of £5million is going to make it hard to keep 20 plus irish internationals at Leinster, for example.

 

[Rumpi]

I think they should go for it, as it would give us an infinitely more competitive season then currently, there are obvious flaws all over the rugby club season, IMHO, and this would solve a lot of the problems i have with the disparity of the season.

 

[j_remos]

I think they should go for it, as it would give us an infinitely more competitive season then currently, there are obvious flaws all over the rugby club season, IMHO, and this would solve a lot of the problems i have with the disparity of the season.

This could only work under 2 conditions.

1) Everyone signed up to relegation / promotion.

2) We would need to set up a second tier competition mirroring the one above it to allow Scottish and Irish teams somewhere to be relegated or promoted to/from.

Its likely we could have to split into a northern and southern conference in B&I too. 2 10 team leagues with propper playoffs with meaning at the end (top 2 from each). It could work but it would need another cup competition to run in parallel.

Chances are we will end up with exactly the same leagues as we have now but with Italy not being charged so much to take part, Qualification on merit for all and as such improved standards in all leagues. This will bring in more TV money for all. On top of that we will get a better European cup with a slightly changed board makeup (hopefully a 3rd tier to help the smaller nations) which will bring more money for all and everyone will be happy.

I can dream can't i?

 

[Rumpi]

This could only work under 2 conditions.

1) Everyone signed up to relegation / promotion.

2) We would need to set up a second tier competition mirroring the one above it to allow Scottish and Irish teams somewhere to be relegated or promoted to/from.

Its likely we could have to split into a northern and southern conference in B&I too. 2 10 team leagues with propper playoffs with meaning at the end (top 2 from each). It could work but it would need another cup competition to run in parallel.

Chances are we will end up with exactly the same leagues as we have now but with Italy not being charged so much to take part, Qualification on merit for all and as such improved standards in all leagues. This will bring in more TV money for all. On top of that we will get a better European cup with a slightly changed board makeup (hopefully a 3rd tier to help the smaller nations) which will bring more money for all and everyone will be happy.

I can dream can't i?

Are we talking about a full merge? There'd probably need to be three Divisions? B&I Premiership - B&I Championship - B&I Div 3. I don't know how they would decide who started in the top tier, and so on, or who went to what level of the new structure, there'd be fights a plenty. But I really think it would be a quality competition, better even then the HEC.

The rules would have to be the same for everyone, no special cases, so, salary cap for all, promotions and relegation for all a 100% level playing field.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/dome...0/deadline-looms-for-anglo-welsh-league-plan/

I cannot believe that this will be allowed to happen.

 

[Rumpi]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/dome...0/deadline-looms-for-anglo-welsh-league-plan/

I cannot believe that this will be allowed to happen.

I thought a deal was close to retain the HEC. Christ on a bike this is some mess.

 

[munstermuffin]

By time all Courts and appeals are done it'll be next year and everyone in Wales will be left in limbo in a RWC year

 

[Conal]

That may be the case in Ireland, but in England it means something completely different, hence the problem.
You will never get a competition that works in Europe with some countries employing the regional model and some not.

so bar private enterprise what exactly is the difference here?
english clubs have their feeder clubs and areas of recruitment aswell same as irish regions?

 

[McTallshort]

Sorry as much as I understand the regions anger towards the WFU I really really dont think this is a good Idea. What about relegation? What about European rugby? What about the Championship clubs? What does this add to the English club game?

crazy

 

[munstermuffin]

Sorry as much as I understand the regions anger towards the WFU I really really dont think this is a good Idea. What about relegation? What about European rugby? What about the Championship clubs? What does this add to the English club game?

crazy

On this point about Championship clubs. How does clubs like Bristol or Leeds feel or even whoever drops this season?

 

[ratsapprentice]

The Championship clubs had a meeting recently on this very matter, needless to say they are not best pleased.

 

[munstermuffin]

The Championship clubs had a meeting recently on this very matter, needless to say they are not best pleased.

But here's a few questions if anyone could answer.
Obviously Wales (WRU) will launch court action but any chance a RFU run championship might too?

Will IRB have to sanction Welsh teams in?

Can RFU stop refs from participating in Premiership if a debate occurs?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But here's a few questions if anyone could answer.
Obviously Wales (WRU) will launch court action but any chance a RFU run championship might too?

Will IRB have to sanction Welsh teams in?

I think they should do.

I'm very much open to the Welsh clubs joining the premiership.....however, if they join at the expense of a European Championship I think we should promote the top 2 Championship sides (I think that'll fill the Euro weeks?) and subject the Welsh sides to the same relegation standards as every sides, rather than the 1-at-any-time that has been touted recently.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think they should do.

I'm very much open to the Welsh clubs joining the premiership.....however, if they join at the expense of a European Championship I think we should promote the top 2 Championship sides (I think that'll fill the Euro weeks?) and subject the Welsh sides to the same relegation standards as every sides, rather than the 1-at-any-time that has been touted recently.

But if that happened, would clubs receive lower money due to more teams.
Also it'd be worst as it'd again develop in to 2 or 3 mini leagues within 1 you'll have 5/6 challenge for top 4 and your 2/3 in relegation battle and crop in middle just wanting season to end

 

[McTallshort]

I think they should do.

I'm very much open to the Welsh clubs joining the premiership.....however, if they join at the expense of a European Championship I think we should promote the top 2 Championship sides (I think that'll fill the Euro weeks?) and subject the Welsh sides to the same relegation standards as every sides, rather than the 1-at-any-time that has been touted recently.

What about if there is a new European cup similer to the HC, Who would qualify? currently we rightly make a big deal about quailification being on merit in the AP. Would that be the same if we had 4 Welsh regions in there too?

 

[Peat]

Sorry as much as I understand the regions anger towards the WFU I really really dont think this is a good Idea. What about relegation? What about European rugby? What about the Championship clubs? What does this add to the English club game?

crazy

It adds nothing the English club game save 4 extra home games and whatever extra TV monies PRL are due from BT for a cross border competition, which I suspect is the biggie and principal reason for doing this. Not being funny, but long term, how does that work out? BT certainly won't feel like they got their money's worth from that, they wanted the HEC (or equivalent) and instead are paying a lot of money for a slightly larger AP. They'll be pretty ******. Sky are pretty narked by a competition they'd built a good partnership with walking away and shafting them in the process. PRL are dancing all over the toes of two of their four main benefactors. The third, the RFU, will also be incredibly annoyed.

Then there's the fourth, the fans and... well. There's no point me threatening a boycott, I don't go. But I've never got the impression this was popular with the fans. They'll probably do nothing, maybe not turn up to the games against the weaker regions, but, y'know, nice to see them consulted. It is simply assumed they will be loyal.

There will be legal action. No one knows how the legal action will go, how much it cost, how long it will go - well - on our side of things at least. You'd presume PRL and RRW have thought long and hard about this.

The only scant consolation for us, as sane non-Welsh people*, is that contracts can be broken. This deal could be dissolved and in the right circumstances will be. So... fingers crossed.

*I am not saying that to be Welsh is to be insane, but rather that to support this, you either need to be insane or Welsh. Or a clubowner with a large financial hole to fill in a hurry, although even then...

 

[ratsapprentice]

Couldn't agree more.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What about if there is a new European cup similer to the HC, Who would qualify?

Get rid of them.
I'd have them in the AP only if there wasn't a Euro cup competition - there isn't enough time in the calendar otherwise (I know the LV= would be scrapped, so that frees up some time, but that time is needed for rest and/or not putting out crap sides during internationals).

 

[munstermuffin]

Get rid of them.
I'd have them in the AP only if there wasn't a Euro cup competition - there isn't enough time in the calendar otherwise (I know the LV= would be scrapped, so that frees up some time, but that time is needed for rest and/or not putting out crap sides during internationals).

Exactly because the like of Northampton Saracens and Leicester benefit more in terms of quality and financially from playing the Dragons in a league game on a December Friday that a double header with a Leinster Munster or Ulster or French team

 

[j_remos]

Exactly because the like of Northampton Saracens and Leicester benefit more in terms of quality and financially from playing the Dragons in a league game on a December Friday that a double header with a Leinster Munster or Ulster or French team

Financially we do better from League games than European ones (less travel costs, less free tickets to ERC, more TV money). That said i think everyone wants some kind of European competition as long as its on terms we agree with. Thats the big issue with expanding the Prem to have the Welsh. It cant be undone fast enough to respond to a new Cup when it comes.

If the proposal was for 2 14 team Leagues (prem/Championship) with 2 Welsh clubs from each to replace the LV= i could get behind that as i would love to have more Quality games Vs the welsh and more Quality teams in the Prem. I would only consider it a good move though if we brought the Championship under the PRL banner and game them more rights and support. That would have to include a better TV deal so they could increase exposure and as such Advertising revenue (perhaps 1 game a week minimum).

Still, the best solution for all would be what most people, clubs, owners, fans and Unions agree at this point. But how we get past the TV deals without either side feeling like they have lost i don't know. Perhaps Sky wand BT will talk but i doubt it. Its in BTs interest to make Sky suffer as much as they can.