In Argentina: The working class hates Rugby

[Dato]

England has the sixth highest GDP in the world and its citizens have a per capita income around 50,000 american dollars a year. While the GDP of Argentina is the number 26th and our citizens have a per capita income around 11,000 american dollars a year. Very different realities, England has a strong sporting heritage. In England people not only love football, there are many sports that have roots in the people as: cricket, golf, rugby, tennis and others. In Argentina, most people only care about the football, football and football

You did not mention about you Basketball Team, which is more successful than football team since 2000s.
Argentina won Olympic Gold in 2004 (I remember their sensational win against Dream Team with Duncun, Lebron, Wade, Anthony, Iverson and etc.) and Bronze in 2008 (unlike Olympics in football, basketball Olympics is the most prestigious tournament on NT level).
Plus, Argentina was runner up in world cup 2002.
Truly amazing team, with Ginobily, Scola, Delfino, Nochioni and etc.

 

[Dato]

During the strong Soviet Union years though, Americans took it extremely seriously when they lost to the latter, but that's because of course there were huge stakes behind the pretext that was basketball.

During Soviet union, USA played with students (NCAA players) against USSR (know about their rivalry quit well as some Georgians always played for Soviet team ). First Dream Team appeared only in 1992.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

That's really interesting, thank you. I'm fascinated by the politics surrounding the game worldwide, and this has changed my understanding of the Argentina situation completely. I was aware of the fact that the two communities, football and rugby, were split very far apart, but I recalled being told the decision was almost forced upon kids from an early age; I imagined more along the lines that in school a child was told the camp into which they would fit. Hearing there's such aggression, rather than somewhat petty decision, and political unrest, is fascinating if a cause of unrest.

Thank you for writing this up, I'd be really interested were you to dictate any more.

 

[Shaggy]

That's not very Gretzky of her...(...or maybe it is thinking about it).

Last weekend I took my German girlfriend to her first rugby game, and she found it great fun cheering for the Cheetah's overs the Hurricanes. I knew she was doing it to annoy me, but it totally worked...

Hehe ... yeah, my wife hates Gretsky with a passion, and supports that other Alberta team (Calgary) ... which isn't the safest option in this city, I find it a little funny that I'm the one supporting the home team, and trying to come to terms with the frequent loses

... I can relate to what you went through with your girlfriend too ... in just about every sport, my wife and I differ on the team(s) we support, and often wined each other up

... fortunately, we support the same Rugby teams, because divorce is expensive

To get back to the topic (or near it anyway), does the socio-economics relating to the fan base/support of a team, apply to other South American countries as well ... is there likely to be much local interest from the Brazilians in the Olympic Rugby Sevens in 2016?

 

[Draggs]

This whole part could have been written by a South African as well, if you change the names and so on. there would have been absolutely no difference.

finally a decent post by you Conrad. Keep it up

He has your acceptance, life goal achieved.

 

[Big Ewis]

During Soviet union, USA played with students (NCAA players) against USSR (know about their rivalry quit well as some Georgians always played for Soviet team ). First Dream Team appeared only in 1992.

yup. But the Soviet Union used to win before. No Eastern European side has defied them since at the Olympics, although there still are many players in the NBA from there...interesting how basketball specifically of all sports was such a hit in that region.

 

[dasNdanger]

my God, you're absolutely useless !...

And as sexist or wtvr the hell this might sound, I think women have a much easier time with national identity or anything to do with that level of pride. Patriotic women are legion, I'm not contradicting that fact. I'm just saying men will more identify themselves through national belonging or belonging to something in general along those lines.
As an example, in mixed individuals I'll often see the boys struggling with identity crises and never the girls, they're just fine with who/how they are.
It's part of masculine stubbornness and stupidity than to cling on to the team that represents us, in sports as one instance, but in life in general. It's 100% typically masculine. Women are far more flexible with these issues and don't nearly take em as seriously, and see the relative unimportance of it all.

Why don't you just come out and say it - women will root for whatever team has the hottest guys on the roster.




das

 

[Big Ewis]

Why don't you just come out and say it - women will root for whatever team has the hottest guys on the roster.

don't you try to soil my rock solid reputation as a politician on these boards...I do not condone that message, and I for one believe in perfect equality between men and women.....even on a boxing ring.

 

[WillKillSin]

those damned jocks and their...protein shakes...

 

[Jaguares]

Is Rugby in Argentina regional like it is in Italy, England and most other places?

Yeah, absolutely. For example, in the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires, the north is identified with rugby, as it's the most expensive area of the metropolitan area, so most rugby clubs are settled in this area. While the West and South area are cheaper, then they are more identified with the working class and football. The East doesn't exist because the East is the River Plate.

Here's a map of the metropolitan area of Buenos Aires, with my explanation:

At the country level, there are also some cities more identified with rugby than other cities, but always being rugby the second or third sport in the city. If I have to make a list of the cities with the largest rugby's tradition would say are these: Cordoba, Rosario, Santa Fe, Tucuman, Salta, La Plata, Mendoza and Mar del Plata. These are the cities that most players have contributed to the Pumas:

Cheers

Hi, could you tell me why Argentina's RU national team is called "Los Pumas"?

Yes, I have already explained in the forum before. Guilt is a South African journalist. The Pumas were on a tour of South Africa, our team had joined a jaguar logo on his jersey. This tour was very successful for the Argentine rugby, achieving very good results, as I was saying, a South African journalist to see the jaguar in our jersey, he thought he thought it was a cougar, then he wrote in his notes: "The Pumas have won" or something like that. It was a successful tour, this mistake was very famous here, then people are fond of this nickname and since then the national rugby team is known as "Los Pumas". As I have already explained, our national rugby team is hated by the working class, when more poor is an Argentine, he feels more hate for our team. The tour was in 1965, since then our team is known by that nickname

From wikipedia:

The first trip of the Argentina national rugby team to the other side of the Atlantic was to Rhodesia and South Africa in 1965. The team acquired the nickname "Pumas", from a local journalist after their first tour match, a defeat on 8 May to Rhodesia in Salisbury 17–12. The book "Be Pumas" recalls the Wackley Farmer of Rhodesia magazine commenting on the emblem embroidered on the tourists' jerseys was like a puma – rather than a jaguar. After defeats to Salisbury and Northern Transvaal, the first win came against Western Transvaal, another against South West Africa Country Districts and finally against the Southern Universities. The Pumas scored a landmark win of 11–6 against the Junior Springboks. They were welcomed home to Buenos Aires by a huge crowd; the tour had harvested 11 victories, one draw and four defeats over two months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina_national_rugby_union_team

Cheers

 

[SimonG]

Very interesting post Conrad...as I mentioned before it's also something that applies in the UK to a large extent. Football is a working class English sport that spread all over the world largely through working class Brits (coalminers etc.). Rugby (and cricket) being English public school games spread to the British colonies via the gentry/upper class (governers) to the schools they founded. Australia, NZ and South Africa are identical in playing both games, while in the Indian subcontinent only cricket took over (cricket being more genteel it is suited to their physique).

Ruling class (colonial governers) = Rugby, cricket
Working class (coalminers etc.) = Football

That is the core at what you have described of the division in Argentina. The highest profile case in South Africa was of course when Mandela wore the springboks jersey which took incredible decency for him to do after what the white ruling class had subjected him (and the blacks) to. The social division applies in the UK to a large extent also (with the exception of Wales). In England, Rugby Union is largely the home counties (wealthy areas around London) and a smattering of the west country (Bath, Bristol). North of Watford it is almost non existent. In Scotland the east coast is its base.

For whatever reason some have a problem mentioning the class aspect, but it exists, you can't ignore it. I have worn a Rugby jersey while playing football and had narky comments thrown at me (not often, but it's happened).

And to Shaggy...football fans in the UK are regional in that their club comes first, their country a distant second. The opposite is the case with Rugby Union and Cricket where the national team takes precedence (possibly due to the club game in both sports being much smaller).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's only when England are doing **** though, you ask most fans whether they'd want their club to win the premier league or England to win a world cup or a euros they'd choose England everytime. Footballs international system is a load balls as well which doesn't help.

 

[SimonG]

Nonsense. Fans of big clubs will say their club 100%. Fans of the likes of Northampton town, Stoke, Preston...the names often seen on banners at England games...only they would say England. English football is tribal, Scousers hate Mancs, West Londoners hate North Londoners, Geordies hate Mackems and so on...not a prayer would a Scouser cheer a Manc in an England jersey.

 

[Pockets]

That's only when England are doing **** though, you ask most fans whether they'd want their club to win the premier league or England to win a world cup or a euros they'd choose England everytime. Footballs international system is a load balls as well which doesn't help.

Sure, a majority would say World Cup but only about 2/3rds and for certain teams and places, you'd be looking at a lot less.

North of Watford it is almost non existent.

Bit of an oversimplification that, the East Midlands isn't exactly rugby first football second, but it's certainly got a big presence in the region.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Doubt it, 50 odd years just makes people forget that country comes before clubs add that to the fact that nowadays it's more Londoners who support Man U hate Londoners who support Liverpool!

 

[Shaggy]

Very interesting post Conrad...as I mentioned before it's also something that applies in the UK to a large extent. Football is a working class English sport that spread all over the world largely through working class Brits (coalminers etc.). Rugby (and cricket) being English public school games spread to the British colonies via the gentry/upper class (governers) to the schools they founded. Australia, NZ and South Africa are identical in playing both games, while in the Indian subcontinent only cricket took over (cricket being more genteel it is suited to their physique).

Ruling class (colonial governers) = Rugby, cricket
Working class (coalminers etc.) = Football

That is the core at what you have described of the division in Argentina. The highest profile case in South Africa was of course when Mandela wore the springboks jersey which took incredible decency for him to do after what the white ruling class had subjected him (and the blacks) to. The social division applies in the UK to a large extent also (with the exception of Wales). In England, Rugby Union is largely the home counties (wealthy areas around London) and a smattering of the west country (Bath, Bristol). North of Watford it is almost non existent. In Scotland the east coast is its base.

For whatever reason some have a problem mentioning the class aspect, but it exists, you can't ignore it. I have worn a Rugby jersey while playing football and had narky comments thrown at me (not often, but it's happened).

And to Shaggy...football fans in the UK are regional in that their club comes first, their country a distant second. The opposite is the case with Rugby Union and Cricket where the national team takes precedence (possibly due to the club game in both sports being much smaller).

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and insight ... I must admit my perception was that the clubs/regions came first, with regard to Rugby in England (and France), because of the way the club ownerships are setup in both countries. Players being supplied to the national teams, isn't the clubs' priority.

... The feedback I've received from other members on here also led me to believe this, when they've complained about their club players being drafted into the national squad.

Edit - A smattering of polite applause please ... this is my 2,000th post

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Good post OP

Have to say I have always wanted to go to Argentina and play some rugby and maybe polo. It certainly has some beautiful countryside.

But do you think the inclusion of a pro super 15 team will help increase the supporter base if the club uses its grassroots and foundations properly?

 

[Big Ewis]

Edit - A smattering of polite applause please ... this is my 2,000th post

pfff...such a self-important jerk...

 

[Shaggy]

pfff...such a self-important jerk...

... Classy Post ...

 

[SimonG]

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and insight ... I must admit my perception was that the clubs/regions came first, with regard to Rugby in England (and France), because of the way the club ownerships are setup in both countries. Players being supplied to the national teams, isn't the clubs' priority.

... The feedback I've received from other members on here also led me to believe this, when they've complained about their club players being drafted into the national squad.

Edit - A smattering of polite applause please ... this is my 2,000th post

Just to add another bit on this, in both Rugby and Cricket the national team take precedence not just in the eyes of fans and players, the national team has the power in both sports (for example, central contracts in cricket). The RFU fund players transfers (Sam Burgess). Clubs have little or no say. In football it's the other way round...the clubs (some being worth multiple billions) have a large say on matters in regards to the national team/player availability.

To give one example in football of how much club takes priority over the national team, for fans of most of the big clubs, and how little they give a rats about England; Roy Hodgson was Liverpool manager (and was doing terribly) that Liverpool fans started a campaign to get rid and chanted during games; "Hodgson for England".

We dont have this tribal aspect in Ireland (plus have never won a thing) and will support the team and the players regardless of who they play for at club level.