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International coach of the year

RoosTah

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John Mitchell was in charge for 2 years in which he lost a Bledisloe series and a World Cup. Smaller sample size and less achievements and with stats bumped up by the minnow games in the 2003 RWC.

Again, you can disagree all you like, but across any number of sports you can point to guys that have taken over champion teams and looked like geniuses, but been pretty ordinary when they had a tougher assignment.

In fact, John Mitchell kinda proves my point. It's since been shown he's not a very good coach, but he still got a solid winning record with the ABs - even if he didn't win when it mattered during his short tenure and never beat England.
 
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Bo Jandals

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If you say so, but John Mitchell's coaching record was 83.9% over his 28 tests in charge, only 2% lower than Graham Henry's. So in essence Steve Hansen has still markedly improved the All Blacks more than Henry had under Mitchell. So I still call BS.

Yeah but this is about 2015's years coach. % or not, Mitchell doesn't hold a candle to Cheika with a VAST improvement
 

TRF_nickdnz

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Chieka was one Joubert correct call away from a QF exit. Forgive me if I'll wait till the weekend before saying what he is and he isn't.
 

RoosTah

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Chieka was one Joubert correct call away from a QF exit. Forgive me if I'll wait till the weekend before saying what he is and he isn't.

As I said before though, he already has runs on the board. He took Leinster to their first championship after years of underperforming and then did the same with the Waratahs. Now he's been in the wallabies for a year, has won a rugby Championship and got the team to the RWC Final when most didn't think they'd make it out of the pool.

That's a pretty decent record right there and in no job did he walk into a side that were already the best in their competition and already reigning champs.

If he wins tomorrow, Cheik will make coaching history as the most successful coach at every level of the game in the shortest time.

I do note with some confusion though, that you won't recognise Cheika's achievements because he has yet to win a Rugby World Cup, yet you don't understand how I could question how good Hansen is because we haven't seen how he's gone with a team that is not already the most dominant ever.

Actually, that's not entirely true. We did see Hansen coach Wales too, and during his tenure they lost 11 games in a row at one point, including all of their 6N games one year.
 
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The Jones Boy

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He did, he was also vilified for being a key architect in breaking down the old boys network that was strangling the talent rise in Wales that allowed them to become the powerhouse in the years that followed.
You think Cheika has had issues dealing with the ARU, thats pocket change compared to what Hansen had to deal with early on in Wales.
 

KeyboardWorrier

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I don't actually think Cheika knows what he's doing. Half the time he looks like he doesn't even know which one is his team.
 

ABs2011

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@ABs2011, I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree here. My fundamental point wasn't that Hansen wasn't a good coach, just that it's hard to gauge just how good he is when he took over a side that was already the best in the world. The true test of a great coach is (and always has been) being able to take a side that aren't so great and making them great. The 2003 All Blacks weren't worthy of the mythology surrounding them, but the creature Henry turned them into certainly were.

If he gets the nod, I won't have a problem with it really, but I don't think we'll know how good he really is until he's coached a side that aren't superstars and already utterly dominant.

You guys all seem t be going off on some pretty strange tangents!! Whats Henry got to do with it? Mitchell?? 2003??

Also whats coaching at club rugby level got to do with it? This is International Coach of the Year 2015 isnt it? Maybe I am wrong but I didnt think it was relevant wat the respective coaches may have done at lower levels??

All I am saying is the winner, without a shaddow of a doubt will come be the coach that wins the RWC. And you are saying even if the Ozzies dont win Chieka will win it?

Also I just dont get the relevance / logic of a lot of what you say:
Surely that fact that Hansen has won the award for the last three straight years renders the point you are trying to make about not knowing how good a coach he is useless.
And the idea that you are effectivly excluding him from the award just doesnt make any sense. You cant have an award for coach of the year and exclude the coach of the best team because they are the best - it makes no sense.

We can agree to disagree no problem, but your logic needs some re-thinking I reckon!!

For me the world rugby awards are about excellence and so in a RWC year the award for team of the year and coach of the year has to go to the winner of the RWC!
 
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YoungScud

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I'd like to offer up Vern Cotter. He's taken a team that couldn't close out games and created something much more exciting. A team that believes in itself and has now proved itself capable of beating some of the best. He has backs who play with confidence and glair and a pack which dished out a lesson or two in scrummaging during the RWC. From a team which finished bottom of the Six Nations, he's truned them around to coming within a whisker of an RWC semi-final. It's hard to see past that, unless you count Eddie Jones.
 

KeyboardWorrier

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I'm serious. When the Wallaby's try he's excited, fair enough, but he's also got this look that says 'wait, that was us right?'.
 

Bo Jandals

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I'd like to offer up Vern Cotter. He's taken a team that couldn't close out games and created something much more exciting. A team that believes in itself and has now proved itself capable of beating some of the best. He has backs who play with confidence and glair and a pack which dished out a lesson or two in scrummaging during the RWC. From a team which finished bottom of the Six Nations, he's truned them around to coming within a whisker of an RWC semi-final. It's hard to see past that, unless you count Eddie Jones.

Ahhhhh, the old Vern trick aye?

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I'm serious. When the Wallaby's try he's excited, fair enough, but he's also got this look that says 'wait, that was us right?'.

C'mon mate....if you want to see excited, watch HM? Cheikas cool.......too be honest though, I've only seen him excited ONCE against the AB's in Brisvegas/Sydney or where was that amazing once in a life time?
 

TRF_Olyy

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I'd like to offer up Vern Cotter. He's taken a team that couldn't close out games and created
a team that can't close out games.
 

RoosTah

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You guys all seem t be going off on some pretty strange tangents!! Whats Henry got to do with it? Mitchell?? 2003??

Also whats coaching at club rugby level got to do with it? This is International Coach of the Year 2015 isnt it? Maybe I am wrong but I didnt think it was relevant wat the respective coaches may have done at lower levels??

All I am saying is the winner, without a shaddow of a doubt will come be the coach that wins the RWC. And you are saying even if the Ozzies dont win Chieka will win it?

Also I just dont get the relevance / logic of a lot of what you say:
Surely that fact that Hansen has won the award for the last three straight years renders the point you are trying to make about not knowing how good a coach he is useless.
And the idea that you are effectivly excluding him from the award just doesnt make any sense. You cant have an award for coach of the year and exclude the coach of the best team because they are the best - it makes no sense.

We can agree to disagree no problem, but your logic needs some re-thinking I reckon!!

For me the world rugby awards are about excellence and so in a RWC year the award for team of the year and coach of the year has to go to the winner of the RWC!

Forget about the award itself, I'm not really that concerned with that anymore. I'm really just arguing about whether Hansen really is the "best coach" going around in international rugby right now, and my logic is pretty simple and I'd have thought not all that controversial. Which is to say, Hansen appears to be a master coach when he's in charge of the a side that had already established itself as the best when he took over, BUT can we really say he's the best coach going around when we've never seen what he can do with more meagre means? I don't really think we can...

That's my argument here - it's the reason I started with the Chris Anderson analogy.
 

ABs2011

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Forget about the award itself, I'm not really that concerned with that anymore. I'm really just arguing about whether Hansen really is the "best coach" going around in international rugby right now, and my logic is pretty simple and I'd have thought not all that controversial. Which is to say, Hansen appears to be a master coach when he's in charge of the a side that had already established itself as the best when he took over, BUT can we really say he's the best coach going around when we've never seen what he can do with more meagre means? I don't really think we can...

That's my argument here - it's the reason I started with the Chris Anderson analogy.

OK I get where u r coming from now (I think).

But best coach in a RWC year is the one who wins it, its as simple as that IMO.

In terms of the whole "can we really say he's the best coach going around when we've never seen what he can do with more meagre means?" thing. I dont think it matters that we dont know what Hansen would be like coaching a lesser team. The key fact is that we know he can coach this ABs team to near perfection. Thats all that matters. I get where you are going with that, but you are effectively disadvantaging the guy because he is coaching a good team, which for me is a little silly.

But again, regardless of all that IMO its simple:
OZ win Chieka is the best coach
NZ win Hansen is the best coach
 

Raz

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Hansen is clearly a great coach but I would say Jones, Cotter and Chieka have done more with less.

I can't agree with the people saying that the winner of the final gives us the answer as that discounts so much of what any team/coach has done before. Obviously the RWC is s benchmark but by that logic Jones is discounted because Japan didn't win the WC despite what he has done being, arguably, at least as big an achievement as getting a better team to the final. Chieka and Hansen also had much more favourable scheduling if you are only going to look at this from a RWC point of view.

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I get where you are going with that, but you are effectively disadvantaging the guy because he is coaching a good team, which for me is a little silly.

But again, regardless of all that IMO its simple:
OZ win Chieka is the best coach
NZ win Hansen is the best coach[/COLOR]

But you are discounting coaches who have proven they can do more with less. I think that Hansen is great but it is the context of what is around this year. This year it just so happens that Chieka has done very well to get to a final when, a year ago, many would not have expected AUS to get to one and Jones who oversaw a historic sporting triumph and 3 group stage wins with an I fancied team and did so playing very effective rugby while also battling scheduling.
 

ABs2011

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Hansen is clearly a great coach but I would say Jones, Cotter and Chieka have done more with less.

I can't agree with the people saying that the winner of the final gives us the answer as that discounts so much of what any team/coach has done before. Obviously the RWC is s benchmark but by that logic Jones is discounted because Japan didn't win the WC despite what he has done being, arguably, at least as big an achievement as getting a better team to the final. Chieka and Hansen also had much more favourable scheduling if you are only going to look at this from a RWC point of view.

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But you are discounting coaches who have proven they can do more with less. I think that Hansen is great but it is the context of what is around this year. This year it just so happens that Chieka has done very well to get to a final when, a year ago, many would not have expected AUS to get to one and Jones who oversaw a historic sporting triumph and 3 group stage wins with an I fancied team and did so playing very effective rugby while also battling scheduling.

No, it absolutely does not! Think about it, what have these teams done this year prior to the RWC final? They have each won their groups, a QF, and a SF. Before the RWC they went H2H twice and shared the results 1 each. Other than that if memory serves me right, they each won the remainder of their games. Therefore this RWC final is what seperates the two teams and coaches this year IMO.

Again, the issue I have with your logic is that you are effectively dismissing excellence. You could have a coach who has a perfect record, doesnt lose a single game all year, wins the RWC away from home and is the first coach to defend the cup, does everything there is to do in the game in a calendar year but say, wel nol, sorry, you arent the coach of the year cause this other guy had a sh ! t team and made them better. For me that is most improved coach of the year or something. Not coach of the year.

So no, I'm not discounting coaches who have crap teams to begin with, I'm rewarding excellence. That's what the award should be for IMO, and that is what the best coach should be, excellent!!

Anway, I can see we will never get anywhere on this. They are all worthy nominees and I do see ur guys points of view, I just strongly disagree with them.
 
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RoosTah

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@ABs2011,

I think the question most of us have about Hansen is simply how do you quantify how much of the ABs success is down to his influence versus all the structures he inherited and the rich talent at his disposal. The TEAM is clearly worthy of being team of the year for excellence if it wins, but from a coaching standpoint I think it's just a little harder to pin down how much Hansen is responsible for when the team he inherited already held every trophy they competed for.

I can see we won't agree, but I do take issue with this notion that we're some how penalizing excellence, as I think it's more a matter of other coaches having an influence that appears much more obviously down to them.
 
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