Ireland World Cup 2019 Thread aka "Quarter Final 4"

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2019' started by The Alpha Bro, May 19, 2019.

  1. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    With all but one game of the season played for Ireland and the provinces I reckon we can start nervously talking about this. After a disappointing season internationally (I always consider the international season as the calendar year) and for all 4 provinces it's easy to take a bleak outlook at the world cup and this is something I'm doing, I think we'll fall at our usual hurdle if big tweaks aren't made, here's my talking points:

    - A small one to start, Jack McGrath doesn't travel even if we bring three loosies which is unlikely.
    - Rory Best goes as squad captain but third choice hooker, one poor game v Italy shouldn't take away from the fact Sean Cronin has been one of the best two hookers in European club rugby this season, he must start.
    - Andrew Porter needs the 18 jersey, both Ster and Ireland have missed his impact at times.
    - SOB doesn't travel, VdF and Nordi go as 7s
    - Jack Conan starts, he's a league above CJ right now.
    - Robbie Henshaw and Ringrose have to be given good ball, this is 1-10s job and this is what makes us best team in the world contenders rather than just a top 5 nation.
    - Adam Byrne needs a spot on the plane, one game breaking outside back in a squad of so few playmakers isn't enough.

    My Squad:
    Loosies (2) - Healy, Kilcoyne
    Hookers (3) - Cronin, Scannell, Best
    TH (3) - Furlong, Porter, Ryan
    Locks (4) - Ryan, Toner, Henderson, Beirne
    Blindsides (1) - POM
    Opensides (2) - VdF, Nordi
    Number 8's (2) - Conan, Stander
    9s (2) - Murray, Cooney
    10s (3) - Sexton, Carbery, one of the other two.
    12s (2) - Henshaw, Aki
    13s (2) - Ringer, Farrell
    Back three (5) - Kearney, Earls, Stockdale, Larmour, Byrne
     
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  3. big ginger 8

    big ginger 8 International

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    Yeah given how much we here about ‘form’ with other players Conan has to start.

    If a third loosehead it will absolutely be McGrath.

    Adam Byrne’s injury was pretty poorly timed.

    Very doubtful of Nordi going ahead of SO’B.
     
  4. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    I agree with that but it's not how I see it. Byrne has been better than McGrath in 2019 by more than a wee bit and SOB is done, it's been clear for all year, I'd rather bring Ruddock and only have one real 7.
     
  5. del boy

    del boy BANNED!!!

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  6. munstermuffin

    munstermuffin Hall of Fame

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    On this,
    Agreed about Jack unfortunately. Kilcoyne cemented his place yesterday and mixed with Jacks omission shows the issue. BUT Schmidts views may differ.
    Again Cronin has been best hooker by a distance but fact is he is seen as 16 or nothing. Not saying that is the case but I do think that is how Schmidt sees it.
    On 7 battle I think CJ will be seen as option there now too. Mixed with your point on Conan. Schmidt has said he has not imposed enough in his games in green. So while you may see Conan as leagues ahead. I doubt Schmidt agrees. Equally I'd disagree but certainly say both are 2 different types and Conan is the better form and more rounded at the moment.
    On Porter. I like him and is a lovely guy off field as got to chat with him at a Daffodil Day event. He offers something different to John Ryan and I believe both will go. Certainly has case for 18.
    On Byrne. I don't think he has a hope of training squad never mind full RWC squad.

    On squad you say.
    I'd agree with it all except I think Byrne won't travel. Conway will be ahead of him and I think Addison would be too but have a feeling Marmion may travel and Cooney be a 9/10
     
  7. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    If Conway goes I'll be sickened, he offers nothing not already covered by better players in Earls and Larmour, he'd be as wasteful a pick as Cave last time around.

    After Stockdale Adam Byrne was the best wing for any of the provinces this season, include James Lowe in that, he's also the best kickchaser we have. Calling him a Pro14 player when he matched Stockdale and scored the winner in the tightest Heineken Cup semi is a wee bit dim tbh... Not considering him when he offers something so different (and extremely well suited for the type of game Ireland play) for Conway who is far from special and a carbon copy of another guy in the squad would be mental in my opinion. I'd be happy enough with Addison but if you're bringing him I think Farrell becomes a bit of a surplus to requirements. Presuming Joe picks a 45+ man training squad Byrne will of course be in there if fit.

    If Stander could be considered a 7 it could lead to Ruddock getting selected, that could be good too he's had a strong season.

    If we go with SOB and Conway I won't have too much hope, it would indicate to me that not many lessons have been learned.
     
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  8. del boy

    del boy BANNED!!!

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    I watched the QF you mention and Bryne played well as did Stockdale and Balouncone But this was ONE GAME

    Fact is that Bryne is not nowhere near as good as Larmour and Lowe at winger

    He doesn't make the 23 man squad for Leinster

    Hence he has no chance for Ireland

    He can play against Dragons & Zebre

    I'm talking World Cups backup club wingers are not worthy of consideration

    As you can see above Conway is not in my 31

    I'd agree he's essentially an inferior version of Larmour hence not needed

    TBH the best winger in Ireland overall is Lowe
     
  9. munstermuffin

    munstermuffin Hall of Fame

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    Based on Schmidts history I think Conway over Byrne is certain. Never said Byrne is just a Pro14 player but he is not fully proven at HEC level or international level and I can't see that gamble been taken on him when he is not even a first liner for Leinster. You may think it's mental but Schmidt will hardly change now.

    On Ruddock I think he won't go.

    Farrell I think nailed his spot yesterday but feel Addison may go as the 15 back up but unlikely and more Cooney Marmion and Murray with Cooney able to cover 10 in an easier game.
    And again I genuinely thunk Byrne won't make training camp.
    Earls, Conway, Kearney, Larmour, Stockdale and Henshaw I think it is rumoured will be tried again at 15. If Sweetnam or Byrne gonto camp it will be for bag duties. I'd expact lads like Deegan and Jack O'Donoghue there too just to hold bags.
     
  10. del boy

    del boy BANNED!!!

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    Bryne has 1 cap for Ieland & that was in 2017 He has no chance in making the 31

    At best he'll be be a water boy carrying tackle bags in Summer Training Camps

    Ruddock likewise is not making it Only plays 6

    Plus O'Mahoney Henderson & Beirne all cover 6 & all are better players in addition



    Henshaw at 15 would be a disaster at Int'l Level

    Guy is a crashball centre nowadays

    Too slow to play 15 He was god awful in 2019 6 Nations vs England

    Addison would make 31 man RWC sqaud but back surgery injury is a killer



    Irish btater find some new tricks to score tries as Japan will be hot and humid

    Keeping the ball for 25 phases won't be a winning strategy

    Need some offloads and line breaks

    Attritional Rugby won't cut it in Japan
     
  11. munstermuffin

    munstermuffin Hall of Fame

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    To be fair Ruddock covers all backrow. But won't make the 31.

    And Byrne has only 1 cap but that isn't issue. Just he has not had enough top club rugby. He is definitely a different type of winger and a good aerial winger just can't see the risk been taken on a guy who only plays wing.
    Like Earls Larmour Conway and Stockdale all can cover elsewhere if needed.
     
  12. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    Addison and Conway wouldn't be starting for Leinster either like, Byrne was selected for a QF where both Lowe and Larmour were available, he's Leinster's second best Irish wing, same as Conway in Munster or Addison in Ulster and definitely the best wing out of those guys if you ask me. He's not far behind Larmour in my opinion at all, and definitely better when his side are in possession.

    Looking at your squad you've gone for 6 halfbacks who only play one position (one of whom has played approximately the same amount of minutes for Ireland as Byrne). I think that's too many half backs. You've also left out a back three player. I also don't understand why you're requiring tried and tested players and later stating we need to play differently to what has (and has not) worked in the past, you're arguments against Byrne appear to be red herrings and ignore how Byrne matches up to his rivals for that World Cup spot.

    I agree with you muff that based on precedent Conway is far more likely but in Byrne we've a guy with a great strike rate in Europe, 6 in 10, and probably the best athlete playing rugby in the country right now. If we get out to Japan and plan A of Stockdale, Kearney, Earls with Larmour on th bench isn't working I'd much rather have Byrne as back up than Conway or Addison.
     
  13. munstermuffin

    munstermuffin Hall of Fame

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    I'd disagree on the Byrne 2as ahead of Lowe for Toulouse. That was based on technicality.

    And look as I say Byrne is a different wing and I am a fan of his and agree his aerial strength is huge asset that is suited to Irish style. But Schmidt won't be making changes now. Conway and Larmour are backups to the 3 and that won't change.
    I do think you are hugely underrating Conway though and possibly down to history but he has got an electric game and is near to Larmour in open field running but again Ireland won't have that style.

    The big questions will be for guys like Conan.
    Can he keep pressure on CJ and force his way in to 8. I think he can keep pressure on and he is a different player but here is big question. Will Schmidt be brave? Will he say CJ you're a Lion and your dropped for the less experienced but form guy. (Based on now)
    Can we get some of these meddling guys back on form.
    I thought Henshaw wasn't poor but nothing great yesterday, CJ and there few more from all provinces that can we get them up to it.
    Lastly you mention plan a not working in back 3. I feel teams have figured us out at times and as a whole can we get a plan b going if plan a doesn't work. As I think our plan A in neutral ground will be stopped by South Africa or New Zealand. Just can we get a plan B some way
     
  14. Leinster Fan

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    Jack McGrath should he nowhere near the plane sadly. Great player but other than a decent start to this season has brought nothing since the Lions. Healy, Kilcoyne, Ed Byrne, O'Sullivan and Buckley have all had better seasons. Of those only two (Healy and Killer) will probably go.

    Scannell and Cronin are comfortably the two best hookers, don't know which one I'd start but Best isn't good enough anymore to be in the 23. Should go as squad captain but I'd make Ryan match-day captain. As backup for Furlong goes it's pretty close between Porter and Ryan, but definitely Porter for me especially after his big performance yesterday. Both Ireland and Leinster have missed him when he's not on the bench, we saw against Saracens Furlong was left on for 70 minutes, long after his influence on the game had faded. They'll both go though. Wouldn't have ruled out Moore before he got injured as well.

    James Ryan is our best player bar none and will obviously start, and as I said personally I think we should make him captain. Henderson, Toner and Beirne will all go as well if they're fit, that part of the squad is straightforward at least. Henderson should start as well with Toner on the bench given that our probably flankers aren't really ball carriers. Dillanne would be my preferred choice if someone is injured.

    Backrow Conan has seriously eclipsed Stander this year and was good when he played in the Six Nations, he has to start. Same goes for Van Der Flier, he's easily our best 7 with Leavy out. O'Mahony should start as well. Stander would be devastating off the bench. SOB is one of my favourite ever players and probably our best ever flanker (or Ferris, that 2011 backrow with Heaslip would start for any Irish team ever) but he's a spent force. Maybe he can get it right over the summer and adapt his game but to be honest he looks done. Take Jordi as he can cover all three positions. If we didn't already have two 8s in the squad (Conan/Stander) I'd probably be pushing for Deegan but as good as he is we don't need him. Don't think Ruddock will go either, too many better blindsides.

    Murray doesn't look the same player. If he can't get his mojo back then just start Marmion/Cooney. I don't think we should rule out Blade either. Sexton has shown flashes of returning to form, 2/3 of his games for Leinster since the Six Nations have been excellent and he wasn't the problem against Saracens. Carbery and Carty are probably better outhalves than Ross Byrne but if I was picking a player to start a tense high-stakes knockout game at 10 out of the three I'd take Byrne every time. Far more composed, less likely to make a costly error and easily the best at game management, which is what we're going to need in the probable Qf against South Africa. Not at all sold on the idea of Cooney playing 10, if I remember right Connacht used it because of a lack of alternatives a few times which is hardly a basis for playing there in the World Cup. We need three 10s anyway, if Sexton goes down against Scotland but is fit enough to play a hypothetical semi-finals we aren't going to send him home and we'll need two outhalves to cover until then. It would also let us use Carbery as a 15 where he's better than both Larmour and himself as an outhalf.

    Centres: Henshaw and Ringrose are comfortably the best pairing. Aki is a decent like-for-like option for Henshaw. We can't really replace Ringrose, Chris Farrell is good at what he does but creates nothing. Wouldn't rule out Tom Farrell for that reason.

    Larmour, Kearney, Stockdale and Earls are nailed on in the back three and I'm not convinced we need another player there,
    Carbery will hopefully play there (please God not Henshaw though). Addison should go as a combo of versatility and probably being better but only if he's fully fit. It won't go down well with some but Dave Kearney will probably be in the extended squad at least. Adam Byrne was starting for Leinster's first choice before he got injured, shouldn't he ruled out but probably won't com Don't see what Conway brings, there are better players. Only real value he adds to a squad is covering both wing and fullback, Larmour and Addison do that anyway while being better at most aspects of the game. I think we should seriously look at Baloucoune as well.

    My Squad

    Props: Healy, Kilcoyne, Furlong, Porter, Ryan
    Hookers: Scannell, Cronin, Best
    Locks: Ryan, Henderson, Toner, Beirne
    Backrow: Conan, Van Der Flier, O'Mahony, Stander, Murphy
    Scrumhalf: Murray, Cooney, Marmion
    Outhalf: Sexton, Byrne, Carbery
    Centres: Henshaw, Aki, Ringrose
    Back Three: Stockdale, Earls, Larmour, Kearney and one of Adam Byrne/Addison/Baloucoune.
     
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  15. munstermuffin

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    On your squad,
    Not a hope 6 half back will go. I think hint has already been on 5 and well Murray was his backup 10 at times in past camps. So can easily see Cooney coming in. And if a 3rd 10 goes it is hard to see it be Byrne as he has been omitted from camps recently and isn't an attacking threat where I feel the 3rd 10 if there was one would be a guy like Rory Scannell (a 12 who can play 10). Not saying Rory will go by the way

    And on Conway. i'd hugely disagree with him comments on him but equally Schmidt rates him highly and again Byrne will not be a contender due to no experience really in big games and Schmidt not selecting him.

    On Chris Farrell. Not sure you've watched Munster much like at all. He has been superb in a directionless backline and creates huge space for others.
    Was probably 1 in red who really enhanced his chances of going to Japan and add in Schmidt is huge fan.
     
  16. Leinster Fan

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    I think we can take 6 halfbacks so long as we consider using Carbery as a fullback, although looking at my squad if we did do that I'd make more sense to drop the fifth back three player and bring either Farrell as a centre. I don't think Adam Byrne is likely to go at all without injuries (and then he'd need a fair few) but that's not the same as saying he shouldn't go, if I was picking the squad (and it's a good thing I'm not) he'd he well in the mix.

    Farrell I agree is a superb player who is being wasted by Munster. I really rate him hugely and in the right backline (outside a genuinely creative passing 12) he'd be genuinely terrifying and right up in the conversation with the best 13s in the world. But I don't think he's what we need, he can't cut open defences, he's not really a replacement for Ringrose (who's basically irreplaceable in fairness). The two 12s who will go will be Henshaw and Aki and outside them Farrell is going to look good individually but as a whole the midfield won't really threaten. I think going by past selections Schmidt would probably pick Henshaw at 13 over him, which is a similar case with the exact same problem. It's a pity Tom Farrell is uncapped because he could be the answer but as good as Farrell he's basically Henshaw at 13 except slightly better (but covering no other positions) and Schmidt will always try to get Robbie into the team. I think he'd be able to consider himself very unlucky if he doesn't go but I don't think he brings enough value to the squad to justify a seat on the plane. That said four centres would probably be a good idea assuming Addison doesn't go because I'm not at all sold on the idea of Larmour or especially Earls (who actually seems to get worse in every aspect of the game when he plays there) playing in the centre. I'm fairly uncertain of who I think should go in the backline to be fair.
     
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    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  17. Leinster Fan

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    Does anyone know how serious Addison's injury is? I'd take him if he's fit, quality cover for 11-15 makes him impossible to ignore for me.
     
  18. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    Might not be the 'ideal' thread for this but just been wondering why Mark McCall's name has never been muttered regarding the Irish set up. Fair enough he has a huge 'wallet' at Sarries, together with one of the best academies around but even when considering those things he has done some job to be fair... if he were Welsh he'd be a national treasure.
     
  19. Leinster Fan

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    The IRFU strongly favour in-house coaching appointments, Farrell, Schmidt, Kidney, O'Sullivan and Gatland were all coaching a province or a member or the Ireland coaching team when they got the job.

    As well as that, I don't remember the details but I'm pretty sure that his departure from Ulster wasn't the happiest. Great coach though, no denying that.
     
  20. bushytop

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    Regardless of what his national ambitions may be (I have no idea), DoR at Sarries can't be a bad consolation.
     
  21. Leinster Fan

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    Yep, I have no idea either. He seems very happy where he is at the moment though.
     
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