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Izzy Folau

ncurd said:
That his reasons are ultimately not sound in judgement because he is unable to articulate his reasoning.
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Not sound to who? Why should he articulate his reasoning?

For the record I'm not a fan of Folau. His list of going to hell actions had me condemned a number of times but because I think religion is a nonsense I couldn't give a toss but I have a number of gay friends (one of whom I used to play rugby with) who got very upset by it but this whole taking the knee business is becoming a trend and has lost its very noble message. Brow beating people into supporting something they probably have little opinion on is wrong.
 
ncurd said:
I don't believe his religious reasons for a start I've stated this. Can anyone point out actual real basis for this? I've never heard of an evangelical state this before.

You stated you reason (I would point out the kneel is from Kapernick and not BLM and a separate gesture, I would also point BLM is a phrase towards a cause of which some groups of people have co opted as their name and are also separate distinct groups with different agendas, BLM to some degree unfortunately it about as oragnised as Occupy Wall Street was). Anyway your reasons are fair you have stated issues with some the actions that a group calling themselves BLM are trying to do this you won't show support for that group. This is a fair arguement from my perspective (as I can only judge you from mine) and still consider you a sound person who sometimes have viewpoint different from mine.
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I absolutely echo that list bit btw!

news.sky.com

Jonathan Isaac: Orlando Magic star explains why he didn't kneel in honour of Black Lives Matter

The basketball player and ordained minister was seen standing while his fellow teammates opted to take to one knee.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

This is a similar example from a couple of days ago. I would also say that despite it beijg sparked by KC, it is now so closely associated the BLM the organisation (very distinct from the cause) that it is almost an endorsement of their goals.
Here's another one about the religious issue too:

Giants pitcher cites Christian faith as reason for not kneeling for BLM: I only kneel before God | Entertainment News

When MLB players knelt to honor the Black Lives Matter movement ahead of the season opener, San Francisco Giants pitcher Sam Coonrod was the only player who remained standing, later explaining that, as a Christian, he doesn’t kneel before "anything besides God."
www.christianpost.com www.christianpost.com

It's something that's been echoed by quite a few in the US recently

The religious arguement isn't one I would use but I understand it nevertheless
 
ncurd said:
Show me it's actually against his religion and him saying it is is not a defence is this an actual belief taught by his religious leaders.
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The Bible can be interpreted in many ways. I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on it, so I'm not going to try and pinpoint where it gives the impression that he can't kneel to anyone but his God and wife. However, it doesn't ****ing matter. If he says that he interprets the Bible as saying that he can't kneel for the BLM movement and wants to practice his religion that way then that's his choice and he shouldn't face criticism for it. If he says that he interprets the Bible as saying that he can't work on a Sunday or eat cuttlefish and wants to practice his religion that way then that's his choice and he shouldn't face criticism for it. If he interprets the Bible as saying that every Monday at 3:47 in the morning he needs to wake up and perform a rain dance while circling a pineapple then that'd be pretty strange but it'd still be his choice to do so and he shouldn't face criticism for it or have to answer for it. The point is that you can't ask him to actively oppose his religion just because you don't like that he isn't standing for what you believe in.
 
Theres a difference between browbeating people into supporting the actions of some groups calling themselves BLM (which I also have issue with some of their views and one size fits all approach, many PoC took several steps away fro the BLMuk for example) and taking a clear view systemic racism is wrong and we need to take steps to combat it.

If you don't take a knee and say it's because of these specifics reasons of which are fair than that's cool. Having a difference of opinion on grounds of views of what you are saying by taking a knee is fair.

Sorry I've never heard kneel only to God before and some evangelicals I know haven't (I have not questioned everyone I know). I'm unconvinced it's deeply held view or even a taught one.


The point I'm making here is fair to ask the why, and in turn make decisions based on the answer. Not whether a person absolutely has to do a thing or not.
 
TBeastT said:
The Bible can be interpreted in many ways. I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on it, so I'm not going to try and pinpoint where it gives the impression that he can't kneel to anyone but his God and wife. However, it doesn't ****ing matter. If he says that he interprets the Bible as saying that he can't kneel for the BLM movement and wants to practice his religion that way then that's his choice and he shouldn't face criticism for it. If he says that he interprets the Bible as saying that he can't work on a Sunday or eat cuttlefish and wants to practice his religion that way then that's his choice and he shouldn't face criticism for it. If he interprets the Bible as saying that every Monday at 3:47 in the morning he needs to wake up and perform a rain dance while circling a pineapple then that'd be pretty strange but it'd still be his choice to do so and he shouldn't face criticism for it or have to answer for it. The point is that you can't ask him to actively oppose his religion just because you don't like that he isn't standing for what you believe in.
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Hes allowed to interpret the Bible to be homophobic piece of **** as well. I'm allowed to still call him a homophobic piece of ****.

Many many evil actions (and I'm not talking about kneeling here please don't misinterpret this) have been justified in the past as following my religion. That religion is not allowed to be under scrutiny because it's their beliefs.

To use your more inane actions of interpretation some Muslims interpret the Koran allows them to indiscriminately kill people from the west thought the form of suicide attacks. Many many practitioners of Islam say this is a complete percussion of their teachings. By your logic I can't scrutinise the suicide attacks because they believe it to be part of their religion.


Dial that back a huge amount from the extreme view should Falou's interpretation of his religion not be under scrutiny? He's used as defence before and we said it wasn't right then.

The idea that because it is a religious belief and therefore immune to scrutiny is frankly one that allows people to justify and behave in bad ways that suits them.




Let's me be clear again in terms of taking the knee if it is proper belief I'm more than happy to back down on that. Especially on this topic I think it's fair to say kneeling is against my religious/cultural practices if it's a genuine thing.


I'm arguing for peoples right to question why he didn't do it rather than enforcement he should of done it or that he can't have reasons for not doing so.
 
AnimatedIgnorantAmphibian-small.gif
 
Think I'll just wade in on this. I dislike Folau immensely but I do feel there is a distinct difference between actively pushing a hateful view (as he did before with homophobia) and passively not going along with a certain action. The former leaves little room for doubt about the motive and their stance on an issue but the latter has a much broader grey area in which a person can oppose a specific aspect without necessarily opposing the whole.

Do I think Folau is racist? Let's say I wouldn't be surprised to discover he was but at the same time I have not actually seen evidence to suggest he is, unlike with the homophobia. Not kneeling isn't enough for me. I've been watching F1 and a fair few drivers don't kneel and I'm pretty sure none of them are racist or support the police actions against black people in the USA. For example some may oppose it as they may believe it is a predominantly USA problem with the kneeling action a USA response. Others may refuse not because the oppose the message but because people are demanding they do with threats of being branded racist if they don't, which defeats the whole purpose of it.

For me personally, I opposed the clapping for the NHS. The first time I had no problem with it but I thought after that it morphed into something completely different. It became an excuse to outdo each other, a tool to attack and shame people for not loving the NHS enough by claiming that your level of support for the NHS was entirely linked to how vigorously and frequently you went out clapping. I opposed it because it seemed that the only acceptable path was to blindly clap for the NHS and let the government off the hook for how they had gutted the service and how they were royally ******* up the Coronavirus response. It was banging the nationalism drum as a way to suppress dissent but just in a different guise. There were people who were happily out there clapping and proclaiming how much they loved the NHS one day but the next were either destroying the service or voting in those who would do that, but it was all ok because they had clapped more than someone else. When things like that happened, it ceased to have any meaning. When people did it for fear of having hate thrown at them, it ceased to have any meaning. Many likely did it not because they wanted to but because they feared reprisal if they didn't. Kneeling is going the same way.

Much as I dislike him, I'm prepared to give Folau the benefit of the doubt on this one and the same with anyone else. Until they actively come out and say they oppose BLM and the primary message, I'm prepared to accept there may be other reasons.
 
im going to keep it simple...because a lot seems to have been discussed since i was last here

I dont think ts out of order to ask someone why they did or didn't do something....thats not soviet russia...thats either being inquisitive or journalism, take your pick

He would have had the right to not answer....but then we would also have the right to draw our own conclusions, its the same argument when people were claiming his freedom of speech before....no one was actually stopping his hate speech...he just had to live with what people thought of him after he said it

do i think not knelling makes him racist....not inherently....has he given a reason other than racism? yes...so that would have have been his chance to spout some rubbish about all lives mattering etc

the other thing i havent seen mentioned here....he's tongan, i realise this doesn't automatically make him immune to being racist....but in my experience we're talking about a very small percent (in the western world) of Black/brown people that would condemn other Black/Brown people

so back to y first point...i think he wanted some attention and then hes taken the chance to double down with some god stuff
 
noah_jo said:
He actually has I believe, the Catalan Dragons HC (I think) explained that they had spoken about it and felt that it was a religious decision (that one should only take a knee for ones wife and God) and is a sentiment that has been echoed by a fair few Christians (a black basketballer did it just yesterday I believe).

We can get into a debate about kneeling and whether it's a meaningless gesture that has done more to harm the cause than good if you like but I fear that your mind is already made up on that.

Members of my (mixed race / north African ) family have been asked to kneel for various social media and publicity events recently but time and time again, have said no. None of the reasons for saying no were because they were racist and the suggestion that not kneeling = for racism is abhorrent.

Furthermore, in those first few lines of your post you seem to be making the point that kneeling is essentially a flippant gesture that, to paraphrase your argument, you should do just because everyone else is doing it and you don't want to stand out. I'm sure the irony is not lost on you there...

I, as a Christian, deeply disagree with Folaus views on homosexuals. Do I think that automatically makes him a racist? No. Might he be? Yes. Is there any evidence whatsoever that he is? Not as far as I can see, but absolutely feel free to correct me if I'm missing some.
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(Hope the following makes sense, it's 6am and been awake since 5 with the baby. Again.)

First thing is to apologise, I went off the deep end a bit there because of my personal feelings about Folau and dragged other non-kneelers into it by association. Sorry to you and your family who probably know a bit more about racism than me (I'm fully white). A lot of good points have been made by you and others on this thread, re: the poppies and clap for carers which I agree with.

I honestly did look at a few different media reports to see if he'd offered an explanation and I didn't read one, that may say as much about the media as anything else.

For the record I'm still pretty sceptical about Folau's reasons, but acknowledge I did leap to conclusions a bit due to personal feelings.
 
The_Blindside said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Vunipola did not kneel because of faith

England number eight Billy Vunipola says his Christian faith meant he was uncomfortable taking a knee in the Premiership's anti-racism protest.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Not the only one not taking the knee.
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"What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in," added the England number eight.

so more about the actions of some BLM protesters not aligning than the kneeling itself?
 
Jabby said:
"What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in," added the England number eight.

so more about the actions of some BLM protesters not aligning than the kneeling itself?
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Probably also an issue with the BLM organisation being insane too tho and their monopolization of the gesture
 

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz www.stuff.co.nz

he still has an existing contract and hes going to sue QRL for not signing him....even though it would be breaching his existing contract...
 
I hate this pussyfooting around religious peoples beliefs and how they're protected and grouped in with racial and sexual equality/freedom.

You don't choose whether you're gay or black or disabled etc etc. You do choose to believe in fairytales your parents told you as a kid, though. Yet if you challenge some of the disgusting views that various religions have they respond like you're going around shouting racist or homophobic stuff.

The bible is a pretty immoral book as are most religious texts. It annoys me we still have to pander to these *****
 
Welsh Exile said:
I hate this pussyfooting around religious peoples beliefs and how they're protected and grouped in with racial and sexual equality/freedom.

You don't choose whether you're gay or black or disabled etc etc. You do choose to believe in fairytales your parents told you as a kid, though. Yet if you challenge some of the disgusting views that various religions have they respond like you're going around shouting racist or homophobic stuff.

The bible is a pretty immoral book as are most religious texts. It annoys me we still have to pander to these *****
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Do we pander to religion? I definitely don't think we do in Europe and I'd presume it's the same in most other developed countries bar the States.

He lost his job, destroyed his career and is widely derided because of his views and rightly so. Gay marriage is legal in most progressive states, anywhere that has institutional racism/sexism is widely condemned and pressured to change (unless they have oil/serious lobbying power like Saudi or Israel).

It's got to the point where religious people are often shy/embarrassed to share that they are religious even when they have totally moderate and acceptable views re all of the above. Usually because it's the Folau types who are the loudest.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Who's the leader of this organisation? Who's trademarked the name?

Maybe you could help the FBI with who the leader of the ANTIFA organisation is too.
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If the FBI are struggling, BLM do have it on their website - Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi.

Interestingly, their list of "demands" have changed quite a lot from last August when I posted that - seems as if they've scrubbed their pseudo-communism and destruction of the nuclear families off of the website now, unless I've missed it.
 

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