[June Tests 2018: 1st Test] South Africa vs. England (09/06/2018)

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Yup, I would have had Morgan in for a while now. He's the most like for like for Billy that we have, and really fits the mould that Eddie wants from an 8.
I know he's had a number of injuries, and I've not followed Gloucester closely so I don't know what his club form has been like, but as you say: He's always turned it on in an England shirt.

Nah, put Shields there. He's more trusted at 5 than Isiekwe is by EJ.

I'm just sick of playing players out of position for no ******* reason. Even suggesting that Morgan (or Hughes) should play 6 is just ludicrous.

Quite conflicting statements here Olyy. Pretty bold to claim that the suggestion is ludicrous if you admit to not knowing what his club form has been like. I agree that playing a pre-RWC Morgan at 6 would be ridiculous but he's changed his game massively; he's much more mobile and is now very good at the breakdown and makes a ****-tonne of tackles; what's so ridiculous about a player like that playing 6? Up until Heaslip's retirement, Ireland played Stander at 6 who played 8 for his club and they beat the ABs with that set-up, Kaino mostly played 8 for the Blues before Ioane came along and he never struggled playing 6 for the ABs. Playing 6 really isn't that different to playing 8, I agree that playing back rowers at lock is mental but there's nothing ludicrous about suggesting a club 8 play 6 internationally.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The issue with Vunipola is that he's our only hope.
We have no other 8s that even come close to him, so we have to try and get him match fit as quick as possible. Next off the rank is Nathan Hughes and he's half the player Binny is, and also straight back from injury/nowhere near match fitness as well.
Beyond that it's playing flankers out of position at 8.

Agree with others, Ben Morgan at his best wasn't a million miles away from Billy and certainly a better player than Hughes. (Hughes has had arguably a greater impact at domestic level but has never looked like he can follow it up at international level. Though it's worth noting here that Hughes, like Billy, was rushed back to playing big games following injury and isn't at his best yet)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Nah, put Shields there. He's more trusted at 5 than Isiekwe is by EJ.

I'm just sick of playing players out of position for no ******* reason. Even suggesting that Morgan (or Hughes) should play 6 is just ludicrous.

Billy: " England Rugby to me is just like a story i know called the puppy who lost his way. The sport was changing, and the puppy was getting bigger...So you see, the puppy was like England Rugby, in that they were both lost in the woods and nobody, especially the little boy, "Eddie Jones", knew where to find them. Except that the puppy was a dog, but the English rugby my friends, that was a revolution. Leicester Tigers rules!"

 

[Maverick1987]

Nah, put Shields there. He's more trusted at 5 than Isiekwe is by EJ.

I'm just sick of playing players out of position for no ******* reason. Even suggesting that Morgan (or Hughes) should play 6 is just ludicrous.

Could not agree more ! Pick players in position and let's get into a bit of breakdown work ! Let's not pretend that's one of the big things Shields brings that other 6s we already have just simply don't have .

Ps. If they drop Curry for this week they will have one less person watching ..... I'm sick of us being absolutely **** at the breakdown . It's the reason we lost this game ..... just like the last 3 ...... (not including the BaaBaas)

 

[higgik]

Ben Morgan? Seriously I don't remember him ever really being bad for England, Billy was just bigger and offered a more immediate solution to post-Tuilagi England lacking a big basher.

Having said that, imagine:

1 - Genge
2 - LCD
3 - Sinckler
4 - Launch
5 - Itoje/Isiekwe
6 - Shields/Underhill
7 - Curry
8 - Vunipola
9 - Youngs
10 - Farrel
11 - Watson
12 - Tuilagi (as he was around 2012)
13 - Loz
14 - May
15 - Daly

One could dream...

We may not agree on how to structure professional club rugby, but you definitely have my vote for next England coach with that team.

Think the idea of split playmakers is great, as it offers many more options for runners.
The strike runners can pick lines of 12 with a pop pass, as Manu would drag defenders towards him and either take contact and pop pass or just before. The width offered by Loz would enable the speedsters to run wider paths into the open space, again due to defender being attracted to a forward or Manu's running lines.
The pack has great balance between continuity players, in my view, players who can pass or protect 5e ball on the floor quickly and support players, players who's main job Is set piece and trucking up.

What about replacements?

 

[Maverick1987]

Can anyone even fathom a reason why Eddie took Isiekwe off at 35 minutes ?!?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Quite conflicting statements here Olyy. Pretty bold to claim that the suggestion is ludicrous if you admit to not knowing what his club form has been like.

Not in the slightest.
He's an 8, he's always been an 8. I want him playing at 8.
I don't want him playing at 6, cause he's never been a 6.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Can anyone even fathom a reason why Eddie took Isiekwe off at 35 minutes ?!?

He said it was because he thought Shields was better suited to a faster game.

If he's not being truthful with that statement, then after reviewing the game, Nick jumped out of the line 2-3 times in relatively quick succession just prior to being replaced.
That may have been it... that's the only thing I saw.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

He said it was because he thought Shields was better suited to a faster game.

If he's not being truthful with that statement, then after reviewing the game, Nick jumped out of the line 2-3 times in relatively quick succession just prior to being replaced.
That may have been it... that's the only thing I saw.

If that's what it was, couldn't it really have waited 5 minutes to be sorted out in the dressing room?

Sticking on defensive matters Gustard got splendidly prickly when a journo asked him whether he should be with Quins.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He said it was because he thought Shields was better suited to a faster game.

If he's not being truthful with that statement, then after reviewing the game, Nick jumped out of the line 2-3 times in relatively quick succession just prior to being replaced.
That may have been it... that's the only thing I saw.

Your review certainly made it sound like Isiekwe was having a good game (I've not rewatched it), so it must have been the rushing up.
If you're looking for a quicker game you'd surely sub off Robshaw. Isiekwe is quicker than Robshaw, and then you get Shields at his favoured position and no weakening of the scrum.

 

[Dunhookin]

Are you serious? Mako and Itoje tried their very best to hit Faf high and late every chance they got. Itoje should've been binned long before Mako for the exact same thing. It's understandable that Faf went down after the umpteenth hit on him.

Yes ok TRF - I agree Itoje was lucky not to get a bin. Irrespective - the yellow awarded to Mako was ridiculous in my opinion - and Faf made the most of it

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We may not agree on how to structure professional club rugby, but you definitely have my vote for next England coach with that team.

Think the idea of split playmakers is great, as it offers many more options for runners.
The strike runners can pick lines of 12 with a pop pass, as Manu would drag defenders towards him and either take contact and pop pass or just before. The width offered by Loz would enable the speedsters to run wider paths into the open space, again due to defender being attracted to a forward or Manu's running lines.
The pack has great balance between continuity players, in my view, players who can pass or protect 5e ball on the floor quickly and support players, players who's main job Is set piece and trucking up.

What about replacements?

TBh that was more a team for the greatest impact. With replacements I'd probably mix it up but something like:

16 - Goerge
17 - M Vunipola
18 - Williams
19 - Itoje/Isiekwe
20 - Underhill/Shields
21 - Spencer / Robson
22 - Nowell
23 - Slade

 

[ratsapprentice]

Your review certainly made it sound like Isiekwe was having a good game (I've not rewatched it), so it must have been the rushing up.
If you're looking for a quicker game you'd surely sub off Robshaw. Isiekwe is quicker than Robshaw, and then you get Shields at his favoured position and no weakening of the scrum.

I certainly thought he played well.

It all depends on whether he was told to push out, or he took it upon himself to do it.

 

[Triple Exe]

Is it ridiculous to suggest that Morgan could do a very good job for us at 6?

I think I'd be looking at Dave Ewers before I'd consider converting Morgan to 6.

 

[WP-stormer]

All this talk about the yellow,it was a yellow as he knew what he was doing!anyway itoje should have seen yellow for multiple late hits on faf!

 

[Pom in Exile]

All this talk about the yellow,it was a yellow as he knew what he was doing!anyway itoje should have seen yellow for multiple late hits on faf!

One has absolutely no bearing on the other. Mako was entitled to hold his line, Faf went down like he'd been shot. Was a penalty at most (probably not even) but definitely not a yellow.

 

[WP-stormer]

One has absolutely no bearing on the other. Mako was entitled to hold his line, Faf went down like he'd been shot. Was a penalty at most (probably not even) but definitely not a yellow.

Fact remains itoje hit faf late and high numerous times with nothing,he should have seen at least 2 yellow,like to see him pick on someone he's own size.bully can hold he's line yes but not allowed to tun ur shoulder into someone like he did.

 

[Pom in Exile]

Fact remains itoje hit faf late and high numerous times with nothing,he should have seen at least 2 yellow,like to see him pick on someone he's own size.bully can hold he's line yes but not allowed to tun ur shoulder into someone like he did.

Everyone's having a pop at Itoje at the moment and he certainly needs to work on his discipline but I don't consider him to be a dirty player, the fact that Faf is about the same size as my five year old daughter may have something to do with why Itoje tackled him high, yes it's a penalty everytime, no it's not ok, but to pretend as some have that it was a deliberate tactic just seems really silly.

 

[WP-stormer]

Everyone's having a pop at Itoje at the moment and he certainly needs to work on his discipline but I don't consider him to be a dirty player, the fact that Faf is about the same size as my five year old daughter may have something to do with why Itoje tackled him high, yes it's a penalty everytime, no it's not ok, but to pretend as some have that it was a deliberate tactic just seems really silly.

I'd never call him a dirty player but come on,watch the game again and u can see he deliberately targeted faf,which I've no problem with but when u hit a player high and late numerous times and also used he's chest once which shows u he wanted faf to know he was there and disrupt him.other than that it was a good game to watch

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

One has absolutely no bearing on the other. Mako was entitled to hold his line, Faf went down like he'd been shot. Was a penalty at most (probably not even) but definitely not a yellow.

He's allowed to hold his line but not allowed to hit a kicker late with a shoulder to the face. It was a pretty obvious yellow...