Kurtley Beale in Trouble

[austingtir]

Seriously? :huh:

Yeah seriously,

I find it a bit hard to believe given Beales history and the current crop of wallabies going back a good 7 years that anybody is at all surprised about all this. Beale and a whole bunch of others in this team have always struck me as a bunch of prima donnas that think they are better than they actually are.

I find it kinda funy that there looks to be a chance he might get off with a slap on the wrist with this one. The other "senior" players seem to want to keep him around... will be good to see how much sway that has on the ARU.

Hooper coming out and backing him doesnt mean squat imo. Id put more weight with Ashley Cooper as atleast he's been around more than 5 minutes.

 

[Helmy]

I agree with all that, am just wondering why a backhanded comment about a female staff member being on her period had to be made? Especially when you're calling Beale a primma donna for making a similar attack on her gender seemingly on the basis that she had the guile to be a woman involved with a national rugby team.

 

[dasNdanger]

Well, here's my take on the new developments so far based on the texts between Beale and Patston:

Beale sent photographs of nude, overweight women accompanied by the words "Would you hit it?" and "Di", and "Di who wants a go f---ing this?"



I don't know about you guys, but the way I was raised, there are 2 things you never joke about with a female, and that is her weight and who she has sex with (resulting in calling a prude or a slut usually). Here she asks a valid question, she's the only female staff member in the group, and is this the way they are being treated? Her responses of being emotional is very valid.

See, I'm a woman, and I have guys whom I oversee in the workplace (it's an HVAC business, so all other employees are men), and when you work will all men you must have a skin thicker than rhino hide. I'm sorry, but her very reaction tells me she was NOT cut out to hold the position she did on the team. Her reaction is overly dramatic and immature. She's a grown woman in a position of authority and she uses the 'I'm crying' ploy? REALLY?

No, had this happened to me my response would have been: "Beale, this is totally inappropriate conduct for any player who dons a Wallabies jersey. It's infantile and a disgrace to the team. I am so disappointed in you. You are better than this, but I still must bring this conduct to the attention of the ARU."

Something to that effect is how you deal with this sort of misconduct when you're a female in authority. You don't say 'I'm alone in my room, crying.' No, no, NO! Whether she realized it or not, that's a SEXUALLY MANIPULATIVE comment! That begs for Beale to have a mental image of her all alone and vulnerable. If anything, her texts almost sound like she's a hurt little girl fighting with that boy in school whom she secretly likes - and he, her - but he keeps pulling her pigtails on the playground and making fun because it's the only way he knows how to express his feelings. She does not sound like a 'mum and wife', and certainly not like a woman who can handle the position of authority she's been given. Really Beale, for as reprehensible as he is in all of this, actually sounds like the bigger person in that text exchange.

(I am NOT saying that Di and Beale secretly like each other, but rather that, if I didn't know more about the situation, that's how immature those texts read. Also, keep in mind that I am not a fan of Beale, though I will acknowledge when he does well in the pitch. But as a person I think he is a bit of a jerk...still...in this case I think there may be some basis for his jerkitude. And yes, I did just make up that word. )


das

EDIT & PS: It's a good thing I'm here to give you a woman's perspective because it appears that many of you have also fallen for the 'I'm crying' ploy. Shesh. Men are SO easy!

 

[TRF_heineken]

See, I'm a woman, and I have guys who I oversee in the workplace (it's an HVAC business, so all other employees are men), and when you work will all men you must have a skin thicker than rhino hide. I'm sorry, but her very reaction tells me she was NOT cut out to hold the position she did on the team. Her reaction is overly dramatic and immature. She's a grown woman in a position of authority and she uses the 'I'm crying' ploy? REALLY?

No, had this happened to me my response would have been: "Beale, this is totally inappropriate conduct for any player who dons a Wallabies jersey. It's infantile and a disgrace to the team. I am so disappointed in you. You are better than this, but I still must bring this conduct to the attention of the ARU."

Something to that effect is how you deal with this sort of misconduct when you're a female in authority. You don't say 'I'm alone in my room, crying.' No, no, NO! Whether she realized it or not, that's a SEXUALLY MANIPULATIVE comment! That begs for Beale to have a mental image of her all alone and vulnerable. If anything, her texts almost sound like she's a hurt little girl fighting with that boy in school whom she secretly likes - and he, her - but he keeps pulling her pigtails on the playground and making fun because it's the only way he knows how to express his feelings. She does not sound like a 'mum and wife', and certainly not like a woman who can handle the position of authority she's been given. Really Beale, for as reprehensible as he is in all of this, actually sounds like the bigger person in that text exchange.

(I am NOT saying that Di and Beale secretly like each other, but rather that, if I didn't know more about the situation, that's how immature those texts read. Also, keep in mind that I am not a fan of Beale, though I will acknowledge when he does well in the pitch. But as a person I think he is a bit of a jerk...still...in this case I think there may be some basis for his jerkitude. And yes, I did just make up that word. )


das

It sounds to more like you are dismissing Patston's version entirely. She was sexually harrassed by Beale. And to such an extent that it has cost her, her job. While I get what you are saying from using the "crying card", To me personally those texts seem that she tried to handle the already traumatising situation in a more buddy-buddy way than between management and player. Which are 2 sides of a coin really. Her job entailed to be firm with the players as you say. But the incident was personal, and at the point of the sms's it was just between her and Beale. She sent the message in a personal capacity and not official capacity, and that is how I see it.

If she informed the ARU and Mckenzie of this, and then communicated with Beale, then yeah, she had to take a more serious approach like you mentioned. I dunno, I guess I'm on Patston's side of this and that her emotional response is relatively normal for a woman who would've been in the same situation as her. Not All woman are Iron Ladies like you Das, so maybe we should look at this more subjectively.

 

[goodNumber10]

I agree heini!

I think it's pretty poor, and i think if Beale gets let off with a slap on the wrist it sends a bad message out regarding tolerance of sexism.

I just don't see how Beale's position is in anyway tenable.

I'd not be surprised if Patston isn't seeking legal counselling, if that was my wife i'd be advising her to sue for constructive dsimissal/sexual harassment..

 

[MojoPin]

Some good points made by dasNdanger, but blaming the victim isn't really appropriate either. Regardless of how she 'should' have dealt with the situation no one deserves to be put in that position. I know that this kind of behaviour is relatively normal in sport (particularly in rugby) and everyone knows the players and staff tend to give each other a hard time. But there's a line that should not be crossed and that line was way, way behind Beale when he did this.

That said, there are also clearly some major issues in the ARU that go much deeper than just a few players' bad attitudes...lets hope they can sort themselves out or the sport will be in serious jeopardy in Australia before long.

 

[dasNdanger]

It sounds to more like you are dismissing Patston's version entirely. She was sexually harrassed by Beale. And to such an extent that it has cost her, her job. While I get what you are saying from using the "crying card", To me personally those texts seem that she tried to handle the already traumatising situation in a more buddy-buddy way than between management and player. Which are 2 sides of a coin really. Her job entailed to be firm with the players as you say. But the incident was personal, and at the point of the sms's it was just between her and Beale. She sent the message in a personal capacity and not official capacity, and that is how I see it.

If she informed the ARU and Mckenzie of this, and then communicated with Beale, then yeah, she had to take a more serious approach like you mentioned. I dunno, I guess I'm on Patston's side of this and that her emotional response is relatively normal for a woman who would've been in the same situation as her. Not All woman are Iron Ladies like you Das, so maybe we should look at this more subjectively.

She should never have handled it in a 'buddy-buddy' sort of way, and she should have reported it. The way she left it (unreported) actually leaves the way open for her to use it against Beale later, like blackmail. She was extremely manipulative in her response, and left the way open for her to have improper authority over Beale in the future.

Do I dismiss her side of it? Perhaps. But these were not actual pictures of herself (if they had been then I would feel a bit differently about her reaction). Instead they were some sort of photoshopped pics with a rude comment directed at her. I can see her taking it personally (the comments), but not to this extent. By her reaction you would think he had circulated an actual sex tape, or something. And her reaction DOES make me wonder about her influence in the team. Was she, perhaps, attempting to sexually manipulate the men she worked with? Sexual harassment/intimidation goes both ways, and since she is very fixated on the whole 'I'm a woman' thing it tells me she is very sensitive about her gender (and thusly aware of how to use it to her advantage if necessary). A woman in authority in that world should never use the 'I'm a woman' defense if she wants to gain the respect of the men under her. Instead, it's just a reminder that she is different, and not equal. And she needs for the team to see her as an equal (gender-wise), and not as a 'mere' woman.

What I am saying is that by her comments to Beale she reveals - TO ME - that she was in no way qualified to hold the position she did. I in no way excuse what Beale did (it was inappropriate and childish), and I do understand that she may have been hurt by it, but my contention is that this is all just a symptom of a very serious disease within the team. From the article I quoted earlier (and that Rats provided the link for) it seems very apparent that the team was not happy and that Di was at the heart of their unhappiness. Beale's conduct appears to be a symptom, but Di (and management in general) seems to be the actual disease. If you treat the symptom only (Beale's misconduct) it only masks what the disease is doing to the body as a whole.

Someone needs to treat the disease in ARU. I am now totally convinced that's where the problem lies, and has done so for a while now. You can keep treating the symptoms (the ill-discipline of the players), but that will in no way cure the problem.



das

 

[TRF_heineken]

I agree heini!

I think it's pretty poor, and i think if Beale gets let off with a slap on the wrist it sends a bad message out regarding tolerance of sexism.

I just don't see how Beale's position is in anyway tenable.

I'd not be surprised if Patston isn't seeking legal counselling, if that was my wife i'd be advising her to sue for constructive dsimissal/sexual harassment..

Yeah me too. And I have a pretty strong wife, who doesn't take crap from anyone (especially me), but if someone would insult her like this, then even she would break down. No matter how thick your skin is, everyone has a breaking point/trigger. While some would laugh off insults about weight or jokes of a sexual nature, others wouldn't.

 

[Peat]

I don't see why people need to take sides. I don't see why one side's got to be right and the other's got to be wrong.

Regardless of provocation, Beale shouldn't be talking about a senior management figure like that about her back. He should be punished.

Regardless of Beale's reaction, the Australian management team's conduct needs to be examined. If McKenzie has lost the dressing room, you have to ask why. If a member of the senior management team is held in such contempt, you have to ask why. If McKenzie and Patson were having an affair, that is not acceptable. If people thought they were when they weren't, you have to ask why.

Beale should be punished. He deserves to. But that in no way exonerates the Australian management and ARU and in no way should Beale's conduct and punishment be allowed to smokescreen the matter.

And, for what it's worth, I agree with Das and that it was unprofessional to take a gender-based rather than professional-based stance with Beale in those texts. I accept that not everyone's an Iron Lady, but not everyone's cut out for a managerial role in a high performance environment either. Those texts do not look like effective conflict resolution to me.


EDIT: And, since Patson does probably have a strong case for conductive dismissal, why isn't she taking it up? Because she wants to avoid being seen as a whiner? Or because she wants to avoid a tribunal that will root through the skeletons in the closet?

I think it's a bit different when a player is harassing a member of the management team, because that is fundamentally crippling to the establishment and evidently very inflammatory. This is effectively a case of in team bullying. Swearing at a ref, whilst abhorrent, isn't likely to have a major effect on team culture in the long run. Likewise going on a bit of a bender is selfish, but in terms of ongoing effects, I think they are minimal. This is a bit different.

Care and Hartley, however, did receive punishments, which is important to note. I don't see much point in punishing a player beyond what the national union has already instigated, unless the team feels that the punishment is completely minimal (though I'd imagine Johnson would have at least been spoken to regarding Hartley's suspension).

All that being said, perhaps England wasn't the best example of a country with great policy when it comes to disciplining members.

I don't know, I can't think of a bigger shift in disciplinary focus in a rugby nation recently. We have gone from lax to making it a big issue. How we are handling it seems a fair example of how things are handled.

And judging from the leaked reports, there was team bullying at England's World Cup, or something similar to. There was certainly a corrosive environment.

That said, I feel a better comparison here would be a different England team - the cricket team - where a highly talented and difficult to manage player was hung out to dry for legitimate reasons but in a way that very conveniently concealed other issues.

 

[TRF_heineken]

She should never have handled it in a 'buddy-buddy' sort of way, and she should have reported it. The way she left it (unreported) actually leaves the way open for her to use it against Beale later, like blackmail. She was extremely manipulative in her response, and left the way open for her to have improper authority over Beale in the future.

Do I dismiss her side of it? Perhaps. But these were not actual pictures of herself (if they had been then I would feel a bit differently about her reaction). Instead they were some sort of photoshopped pics with a rude comment directed at her. I can see her taking it personally (the comments), but not to this extent. By her reaction you would think he had circulated an actual sex tape, or something. And her reaction DOES make me wonder about her influence in the team. Was she, perhaps, attempting to sexually manipulate the men she worked with? Sexual harassment/intimidation goes both ways, and since she is very fixated on the whole 'I'm a woman' thing it tells me she is very sensitive about her gender (and thusly aware of how to use it to her advantage if necessary). A woman in authority in that world should never use the 'I'm a woman' defense if she wants to gain the respect of the men under her. Instead, it's just a reminder that she is different, and not equal. And she needs for the team to see her as an equal (gender-wise), and not as a 'mere' woman.

What I am saying is that by her comments to Beale she reveals - TO ME - that she was in no way qualified to hold the position she did. I in no way excuse what Beale did (it was inappropriate and childish), and I do understand that she may have been hurt by it, but my contention is that this is all just a symptom of a very serious disease within the team. From the article I quoted earlier (and that Rats provided the link for) it seems very apparent that the team was not happy and that Di was at the heart of their unhappiness. Beale's conduct appears to be a symptom, but Di (and management in general) seems to be the actual disease. If you treat the symptom only (Beale's misconduct) it only masks what the disease is doing to the body as a whole.

Someone needs to treat the disease in ARU. I am now totally convinced that's where the problem lies, and has done so for a while now. You can keep treating the symptoms (the ill-discipline of the players), but that will in no way cure the problem.



das

Yeah, maybe. But we don't know the full story yet. While these articles have made the news, we won't know the extent of the insults, and/or damaging videos/photos that Beale made of her. And as you say, she could use it against Beale in a Blackmail sort of way. But then again, Beale could have more damaging content against her. Maybe Beale and Patston had a sexual relationship and this is just a very improper way of breaking up. Which would make both Patston and Beale's future with the ARU non-existant.

Sexual intimidation goes both ways as you say. And maybe this is my sympathetic ear getting the better of me, but i don't see her messages to Beale as sexually manipulative.

This whole thing is a chain-reaction. And the hearing might be the end of it all, or just the start...

 

[dasNdanger]

Some good points made by dasNdanger, but blaming the victim isn't really appropriate either. Regardless of how she 'should' have dealt with the situation no one deserves to be put in that position. I know that this kind of behaviour is relatively normal in sport (particularly in rugby) and everyone knows the players and staff tend to give each other a hard time. But there's a line that should not be crossed and that line was way, way behind Beale when he did this.

That said, there are also clearly some major issues in the ARU that go much deeper than just a few players' bad attitudes...lets hope they can sort themselves out or the sport will be in serious jeopardy in Australia before long.

I suppose it depends on who you see as the victim. In this case (the OVERALL case, not just the rude picture Beale sent) I am beginning to see Beale (and the players in general) as the real victims in all of this. I think Beale is being used by the ARU to mask the real problem (the ARU itself). Of course, I don't have all the information, but from what I've read the biggest sins Beale has committed is being a jerk and a drunk in the past, and sending an inappropriate picture referencing a woman in management. Digging up Beale's past is just a distraction. Digging up what happened over 3 months ago is just a distraction. The fight on the plane? A distraction. What I want to know is what lead up to all of this! And I'm getting some ideas based on what I've read...

1. Supposedly players were astounded by how quickly Di became an "influential but divisive powerbroker" on the team.

2. "Wallabies players had complained about the 'poisonous' atmosphere during team training camps, to the extent that 'several big names' had lost the urge of wanting to be part of the Australian Test scene."

3. Supposedly players "had also been confronted by the threat of being dropped from the Test lineup if they did not openly swear their allegiance to the team management."

4. "The players were then troubled by Patston's increasing influence in the Wallabies preparation for Test matches, and her involvement in team discipline. Several said they were 'scared' of Patston, while even ARU staff members at the St Leonards headquarters have been concerned for some time about 'potential witch-hunts.'"

5. "The relationship between Wallabies and numerous major ARU officials is also uneasy. Test players do not like officials who ingratiate themselves with the team. Several members of the ARU board have been accused by the players of being 'blatant jersey tuggers.' There have even been calls to one ARU board member for one of his colleagues, nicknamed by the players as 'The Fan' not to be allowed in the Wallabies dressing room. "

And that's just some of what I've gleaned. If even just half of that is true, then it very much sounds to me that the atmosphere in the the locker room was toxic, and that the poison was coming from management, and not the players.

das

 

[Peat]

I suppose it depends on who you see as the victim.

The victim here is the Australian rugby community. The victims are everyone involved in this mess.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The victim here is the Australian rugby community. The victims are everyone involved in this mess.

There are different victims and to different degrees.

Patston, in a personal capacity due to harassment.

The Wallaby Management, due to continuous speculation of turmoil within the camp.

Ewen Mckenzie both as coach of the Wallabies and also speculation of having an affair with Patston.

The ARU.

The Aussie Community

Rugby.

In the end, it's always Rugby being the biggest victim...

 

[dasNdanger]

Just a quickie...

I don't see why people need to take sides. I don't see why one side's got to be right and the other's got to be wrong.

You are right. While I tend to lean towards the players and against management, there are 'wrongs' on both sides. Beale behaved immaturely and unprofessionally, and management seems to be totally out of control. Both need discipline, it's just at this point I feel the larger problem lies with the management, and not with Beale, et al.

Yeah, maybe. But we don't know the full story yet. While these articles have made the news, we won't know the extent of the insults, and/or damaging videos/photos that Beale made of her. And as you say, she could use it against Beale in a Blackmail sort of way. But then again, Beale could have more damaging content against her. Maybe Beale and Patston had a sexual relationship and this is just a very improper way of breaking up. Which would make both Patston and Beale's future with the ARU non-existant.

Sexual intimidation goes both ways as you say. And maybe this is my sympathetic ear getting the better of me, but i don't see her messages to Beale as sexually manipulative.

This whole thing is a chain-reaction. And the hearing might be the end of it all, or just the start...

I think the thing I want to know the most (which may give me either a clearer, or much different, view) is who started the brouhaha on the plane. If it was Beale being a jerk and stirring things up with no provocation, then more guilt lies with him. But if it was triggered by something Di said or did then perhaps the guilt lies with her. I really wish I was a fly in the fuselage on that plane...



das

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think the thing I want to know the most (which may give me either a clearer, or much different, view) is who started the brouhaha on the plane. If it was Beale being a jerk and stirring things up with no provocation, then more guilt lies with him. But if it was triggered by something Di said or did then perhaps the guilt lies with her. I really wish I was a fly in the fuselage on that plane...



das

It shouldn't be about "who started it". For it to spiral out of control like it has boils back to the origin of the problem. Which was Beale victimising Patston. If he started it on the Plane, then he's just a complete and utter moron. If it was Patston, then it could've been out of frustration/anger/humiliation. While Beale does show some sort of remorse on the sms's, it doesn't mean anything really. Would Beale apologise to Patston in person?

 

[Peat]

I strongly disagree that it can be definitely said that Beale victimising Patson is the origin of the problem for reasons that I think I've already said.

 

[dasNdanger]

Gotta run for now, but I would like to say how much I've enjoyed this discussion, and how happy I am that it's been free of contentions amongst our august company. Nice to be able to discuss something - to have differing viewpoints - without getting mad at each other.

Now I've probably brought the 'commentator's curse' to the thread, but I trust you guys will keep it together and not 'Beale and Di' the discussion.



das

 

[j'nuh]

This whole situation smacks of how poorly the sports industry, on the inside, as well as in the wider community, treats women.

1. Those texts that Beale sent to Patston were pure and utter ****. A quick google search brings up the Sex Discrimination Act 1984, which states that Australia (like any other liberal nation with an even vaguely modern sense of equality and diversity) prohibits sexual harassment in the workplace. Beale sexually harassed a colleague. This is sackable. Anyone trying to justify Beale's actions or saying that he should not be sacked, is implicitly condoning sexual harassment. Apparently the ARU found out about this last week, so are right to act on this now.

2. What basis does anyone have to speculate on whether or not Patston is having a relationship with McKenzie? (I'm genuinely interested, because I haven't seen any evidence to support this.)

3. Given the obvious sexism that is at the centre of this, Beale's treatment of Patston and various players trying to condone what Beale has done (offering no sympathy for Patston), I have to question whether her position in disciplining the squad was untenable simply because the squad holds sexist attitudes towards women. Given that Beale disrespected her enough to do what he did, what are the chances that he will show respect enough to her, to listen to her in other capacities? Does that make Patston the problem, or players like Beale?

 

[Helmy]

You see, I'm a woman, too, and I think that Beale is a sexist pig making the most of a sporting background that has been sexist for so long it's forgotten to move forward into the 21st century like all the other male dominated sporting codes. If Patson is using her gender to 'manipulate' (bah, humbug), aren't you now using your gender to manipulate this discussion in your favour, Das? Because one could easily infer the message behind your posts as 'well, I'm a female, so sorry, you males couldn't possibly understand'.

I agree with the above post in that this attitude is all but saying that sexual harassment is okay because 'she was asking for it'. Another obvious example of this is the nude leaks of Jennifer Lawrence, because heaven forbid she take intimate photos for her partner, like I'm sure most human beings have at some stage in their life. On the other side of this coin, it wasn't okay for that nude photo of Aaron Smith to be leaked, either. Though, I'm told he was happy that the 'chocolate taniwha' was out for the world to see, which I don't buy into. In fact, I think Patson's reaction of crying was completely understandable, and feel as if Smith might not have been quite as okay about the leak as he was pretending to be, which is the male flip side of the misogynist society we're living in whereby the man is expected to be 'tough'.

Furthermore, if Patson had taken the issue straight to the ARU would she then not be accused of being a 'pushy' meddler trying to micromanage the lads? Oh wait...

 

[nickdnz]

My problem with trying to inform any kind of opinion on this - is it just seems so nontransparent. 'Unnamed officials' mention the squad has a problem with the management/players - but I haven't found any quotes. Details have been leaked very slowly, but speculation seems to be offered three times a minute. Regardless of anything else, Beale was dissenting to a member of the management team on the plane. The texts are a bit irrelevant as it seemed they sorted it out. In my job if I slag off a member of the management team - there is a good chance I'll be clearing my desk as I do so. Beale already having problems doesn't help.

If the ARU are not running things well, then that is something that should be dealt with through players making professional complaints, not naughty text messages.

If I was to offer my bit of speculation - it seems to me that there are a number of players in Australian rugby (predominantly backs) that are just little sh*ts. The position the ARU is in means they are constantly negotiating out of weakness, in that players like Cooper, O'Connor and Beale have plenty of other options. They can play in France or play in the NRL - both of which can probably offer more money and a higher profile. So it seems there are a small number of headline players, who have been selected for the Wallabies from a very young age, that just have a sense of entitlement. What is amusing is that Deans was axed because he wasn't enough of a disciplinarian according to McKenzie, but McKenzie is having an equally miserable time managing players.