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New Zealand U20 v Wales U20

profitius

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Yeah, but the NZ players would develop just as much over the two years ;)

Are you saying that somehow Kiwis develop quicker...?

They're well ahead at the basics in terms of skills. If they are at 90% skill level they might be 95% in 2 years time while other teams are at 60% and might reach 75% in 2 years time. If you know what I mean! lol
 

TRF Mr Fish

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They're well ahead at the basics in terms of skills. If they are at 90% skill level they might be 95% in 2 years time while other teams are at 60% and might reach 75% in 2 years time. If you know what I mean! lol

Yes but why are there skills at that level? I don't think Kiwis are innately better, it's our training regimes etc. We should be advantaged by this.

It's a bit harsh to say we should wait for others to catch up, we don't have any unfair advantages, it's just a case of us training smarter and harder.
 

markshaw

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Its true. The moment you can walk in NZ you play rugby and if you reach the NZ u20 yourv'e probobly been playing rugby since you were 4 years old. And throughout the summer you play with mates at the beach, Everything out doors about New Zealand is linked to our footy. College rugby here is televised. By the time you reach your school's 1st 15 your getting a taste of what professional rugby trainings etc are like. Its all about development through training not just physical size
 

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i think there were a number of factors at play:

1. the kiwis clearly start their physical, skill & tactical development earlier. this wasnt all about the native islanders maturing earlier either--- yes that is is the case, but even the white players in the team were significantly bigger. wales have to start their development of young players earlier, and a lot more coaching needs to be done with school coaches, who are the people who coach kids from age 11-16.

2. the welsh players don't get a very good standard of play on a regular basis. the kiwis have the 14 team comp "ITM", maybe a bit of Super Rugby, and the top Super Rugby players that don't make it into the national team go into the ITM. the welsh players get the welsh premiership--- also a 14 team league, despite a much smaller player base than NZ. the Top welsh region players that don't play for wales don't go into this comp. the standard is terribly low.

im perhaps a bit surprised that the magners league nations havent considered a tie up at club level, or an 'A' league-- combining to drive up the standard of their competitions.

3. intimidated by shirt-- the welsh players clearly were intimidated by the very sight of the ABs. they believed all the hype surrounding the ABs, and were completely overawed long before kickoff. whilst wales are a long way of NZ for reasons stated in points 1 & 2, they treated the NZ 7 as if he was McCaw himself, and the 10 as if he were Dan Carter, and so on. not only were the welsh players already outclassed simply on development terms, but they then stood off NZ as if they were genuinely scared of them.

4. Any particular reason why Wales don't field their 1st strength team at U20? im not sure about jason tovey, but george north and tom prydie are young enough for this, aren't they? but then, because wales haven't had their development structure in place for long enough, those players have already made the senior team. if they were kiwis, they would still be earning their stripes because senior players would've filled the national team slots already.

wales are developing talent, in fairness. they have improved on that immensely during the last 5 years that i have been watching them. they need to make changes lower down so that more players reach a high standard earlier in their career.
 

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1. If we start our preparation early we shouldn't have to wait for others to catch up. Wales (along with other nations) is perfectly capable of starting their preparations at a younger age, this is hardly a reason for increasing the age to U22.

2. Our U20 players rarely play at ITM Cup level (or get very few games, there are some exceptions of course). Even less likely will they play at Super level. The only player in the NZ squad that's had any meaningful game time at Super level is Sopoaga. If you increase the age to U22, our players will move even further ahead of yours, if we are to assume that the standard in NZ is higher, etc.

3. This isn't to do with the age, and you can't blame it on NZ players starting to play earlier ;)

4. Completely Wales' fault...
 

ranger

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Those are some very good points, except for point 2.
There are only a handful of players in the side who have played to ITM cup level or will even make the step up in the next season. These guys are mostly just playing amature club rugby.
 

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2. the welsh players don't get a very good standard of play on a regular basis. the kiwis have the 14 team comp "ITM", maybe a bit of Super Rugby, and the top Super Rugby players that don't make it into the national team go into the ITM. the welsh players get the welsh premiership--- also a 14 team league, despite a much smaller player base than NZ. the Top welsh region players that don't play for wales don't go into this comp. the standard is terribly low.

Couldn't agree more in what you said, but this point is key i think. We don't seem to have "faith" in our youngsters at regional level. Most of the guys playing are playing welsh premiership and "bench warmers" (and i mean that with the upmost respect to the players) for the regions. The Scarlets and Dragons to be fair do seem to breed the youngsters well, but The Ospreys and in some respects the Blues are guilty of buying from overseas instead of using and developing players at an early age. The welsh premier just isn't up to standard, and some would argue the Pro 12 as well (Magners league). I hope the Ospreys especially begin to use their younger guys a bit more next season and not just use them when "senior" players are away on international duty (we actually played well and won all our games during the 6 nations with our "weaker side").
But all in all, New Zealand are a different class though. Its innate, but also structure is way more efficient down there. The youth structure in wales relies heavily on "dady's the coach" or "dady has lots of money to sponsor the team". It sounds slightly bitter, but it does happen, i see it happen day in day out (not going to name names)
 
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The youth structure in wales relies heavily on "dady's the coach" or "dady has lots of money to sponsor the team". It sounds slightly bitter, but it does happen, i see it happen day in day out (not going to name names)

You don't need to tell me!

i did my teaching practice in wales, and on my second day a mother came in to ask why her child was not in the district rugby squad! obviously, being a student on teaching practice, i knew nothing about the squad. the mother had a brother who was high up at one of the regions, and another boy in the class i was teaching was dropped so that this woman's son could be selected.

i assume the child that was dropped knew he had been dropped, because it was after the squad was made public that the mother complained. i always felt a bit sad about that, because i know that the district team ended up playing at the Millennium Stadium--- which means the boy who was initially selected on merit, missed out on a pretty special day because another boy's mother knew someone high up.

nepotism is rife in schools though. i have been in 4 schools and they all have someone abusing their power in some way. at one school, there were violin lessons made available, but only for 6 children from a class of 30+ --- the headteacher had her twins getting lessons, and then the children of some of her friends. the same thing happened on a school trip to lapland paid for by the school, with the same children travelling. im still not sure if it is nepotism, or just fraud?

well anyway, i also noted the common logic amongst some school rugby coaches was that if a child had a relative, even distant relative, who had played for wales, or even just played for a top club, that child must somehow be genetically primed for rugby. of course, even with this bias the number of welsh international players with welsh international fathers is very low. and you would've thought it would be even more common in a country with such a small population, and where a third of that population in north wales has historically been ignored in rugby terms. it works both ways of course, and im sure that sons of ex-internationals have turned away from rugby as no matter how hard they work, their achievements will always be greeted in some quarters with a, "well of course he was selected, his father is so and so".

well anyway, hopefully this humping will bring the same desire for change at age group level, as the 96-13 humping in south africa had in bringing about regional rugby.
 

TVH11

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hahahahaha well i'm glad someone sees the situation similar to me :D its so frustrating seeing it, i'm sure its not only in wales where it is an active form on development. There we go. One day we'll learn :p
 

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4. Any particular reason why Wales don't field their 1st strength team at U20? im not sure about jason tovey, but george north and tom prydie are young enough for this, aren't they? but then, because wales haven't had their development structure in place for long enough, those players have already made the senior team. if they were kiwis, they would still be earning their stripes because senior players would've filled the national team slots already.
Prydie is out injured, North and Tovey are in the main Wales squad (Tovey is also a few years too old, though)
 

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TVF11 said:
The youth structure in wales relies heavily on "dady's the coach" or "dady has lots of money to sponsor the team". It sounds slightly bitter, but it does happen, i see it happen day in day out (not going to name names)

Couldn't agree more, its happening to my brother now, luckily for him though hes still getting in the district squads and just been selected for u16 dragons squad. Theres some talent missing out on these days though because their dads ar well known, needs sorting out big time!
 

profitius

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Couldn't agree more, its happening to my brother now, luckily for him though hes still getting in the district squads and just been selected for u16 dragons squad. Theres some talent missing out on these days though because their dads ar well known, needs sorting out big time!

Thats common in Munster too. People look after their own first, which is not a bad trait but its unprofessional.
 

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