North hemisphere vs South hemisphere?

[Pampas]

Having the November tests come to an end, it seems that the northern countries have closed the gap with Sanzar countries. Some SH players still make a difference with their individual skills, but NH players are on par in the phisical aspect, with maybe one exception, the All Blacks' stamina.
What do you think?

 

[Big Ewis]

nah man, gap still isn't closed. France still couldn't beat the invincible Pumas

 

[Mikel92]

Ireland are certainly the success story of the North. Whether that can translate to a 6 nations win, who knows. Have seen Ireland do well before, but don't perform when it really counts. As for the gap...hmm, yeah, maybe. Performance wise we're certainly not thumping northern teams by 30-40 points any more. Thanks Schmidt and Gatland But there is still a gap. If you take away England, Scotland and Wales' victories over Pacific Island nations then there has only been about four significant wins for the north. There's eight for the south (although if we're taking away the Pacific Island wins then we should also take away South Africa beating Italy I guess). Aussie rugby is a bit of a mess too, at least at International level. Scandals, revolving coaches, player-rule culture, lack of mongrel in the forwards imo. I'm not taking away from the Irish and French wins over them, but let's be real. As for their ability to win away from home, I think that's even more questionable.

Not trying to be too negative, there are talent in these teams, but if we're having a discussion, a real discussion, about gaps closing up then I'd be scrutinizing it. There is one really good team up there who are being consistent. There are others who show moments here and there and the occasional fluke. There are others who are mentally weak and capitulate in the last 15-20. The gap has closed in so far as teams have put a stronger emphasis on defense and they have done it well. But those other aspects are same old / same old.

 

[ENZED-88]

Defensively the NH teams are on par but creatively their a few notches below, you watch the NH teams play an they don't take advantage of the overlap. Ireland looking good and I think they would have been vey confident if they had a game against the AB on the back of those victories... But France, England and Wales have a season to get their **** together, an by the World Cup could be a different story. France would still be the last team I want the AB to come against at the WC.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I do think the gap is getting smaller.. but significantly there still is a gap - whether that's mentality or raw talent I don't know. But games with the SH are becoming tighter and tighter and that's a positive at least. I don't think you could call them the 'big 3' anymore either considering Australia's dive in form.

Would people say there's a bigger gap between NZ and SA or between SA and Ireland in terms of quality? (or England, just using Ireland as an example since they're currently).

 

[dasNdanger]

I don't know. I still have two or three matches to watch, but from what I've seen there's been a lot of sloppy play - or downright terrible play. The Wales/Fiji game was horrendous! Not sure if the NH teams are getting better, or if the SH teams are getting worse, but both need to get their acts together. (Also...I'm not sure how many games have been determined by bad ref - specifically TMO - calls.) But as far as the play on the pitch goes, I'm thinking teams really need to work on discipline, and form. There were a couple matches that looked like some of the amateur club stuff I've seen played here in the States. Not very impressive for top teams.

That said, I still love the game - even the sloppy ones!


das

 

[TRF_heineken]

Based on what??

Let's review the 2 test windows where NH and SH teams play against each other.

June and November. In June the SH teams host the NH and the SH teams won quite convincingly. In November it's about even stevens when the NH teams are the hosts.

IMHO there is still a big gap. Remember that the November tests are the Last period for the SH teams in their season, they are fatigued, and teams generally send second string teams over to give new guys some experience, especially before the world cup. Whereas the NH teams are at the beginning of their season and their guys are mostly fresh, and injury-free.

 

[Mikel92]

I think if this thread was about Ireland closing the gap, there'd be consensus.

If we're saying that every one of them, in a general sense, has closed it - then no. It's a case by case basis and there are some teams who are having the same ol problems.

 

[Amiga500]

I think if this thread was about Ireland closing the gap, there'd be consensus.

Maybe defensively we've reduced the gap a decent bit.

Offensively? Nah. Very little heads up rugby and more adherence to pre-game plans and tactics, regardless of what is actually in front of the players.

I don't believe our midfield have the combination of smarts, strength and speed to live with the very best. Yet.

I am hopeful of a developing mix of Madigan/Olding & Henshaw/Payne partnership changing this.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Ireland have certainly closed the gap while Aus has been sliding. The other sides I feel have been going pretty much as per usual; England certainly capable, France beating Aus but going down to Arg is kinda typical as is Wales' last ditch attempts to lose matches against SANZAR countries (here's hoping the trend will continue come Saturday), SA struggling through November (we had a 2 year clean sweap but lets be honest we were scraping a few of those and Ireland caught us out this time) and NZ having enough class/belief/stamina to make it through unscathed.

Ireland and Aussie swapping places (from before November) as per the below pretty much sums it up for me;


[TABLE="class: fullRankings, width: 549"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH]POSITION[/TH]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TH]TEAMS[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]POINTS[/TH]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (1)

[/TD]
[TD]

• NEW ZEALAND

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]93.70[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (2)

[/TD]
[TD]

• SOUTH AFRICA

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]89.93[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (3)

[/TD]
[TD]

• IRELAND

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]85.48[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (5)

[/TD]
[TD]

• ENGLAND

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]84.21[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (4)

[/TD]
[TD]

• AUSTRALIA

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]83.59[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (7)

[/TD]
[TD]

• WALES

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]79.94[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (6)

[/TD]
[TD]

• FRANCE

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]79.66[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (8)

[/TD]
[TD]

• SCOTLAND

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]78.78[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (9)

[/TD]
[TD]

• ARGENTINA

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]78.23[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: firstColumn, align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

• (11)

[/TD]
[TD]

• SAMOA

[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]75.39[/TD]
[TD="class: detailsCol, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: addToFavourite, align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

they are fatigued

This is a big one for me. Has the extension of Super Rugby negatively impacted on the performance of Sanzar countries over a long season? European teams have constantly overworked their players leading to fatigue and injuries and now Sanzar is moving closer to that flawed model than it had previously.

I think Ireland are improving due to having a phenomenal coach. I'd prefer to see them play more exciting rugby though.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think the NH teams are becoming much better at defending - chalk that up to the quality of coaches they have. Schmidt and Cotter are both proven coaches and Gatling had shown in his time with Wales that he's fairly astute. Lancaster is also improving rapidly. NZ and SA are still the best teams defensively, but the difference is not as pronounced as it once was.

 

[TRF_heineken]

This is a big one for me. Has the extension of Super Rugby negatively impacted on the performance of Sanzar countries over a long season? European teams have constantly overworked their players leading to fatigue and injuries and now Sanzar is moving closer to that flawed model than it had previously.

I think Ireland are improving due to having a phenomenal coach. I'd prefer to see them play more exciting rugby though.

I think it does.

Next year will be the first time that Springbok players who have national contracts will be allowed to have a sabbatical during the Super Rugby tournament to prevent them from being fatigued at the World Cup.

We don't know yet how long the sabbatical will be and who will all qualify, but that is definitely on the cards.

 

[Canuck]

Meh, the NH nations have looked pretty strong against the SH teams but you can't underestimate the advantage of home field for these tests. IMO only Ireland exceeded expectations and I feel that if it had been the NH teams travelling to the SH to play NZL, SA and Aus there would have been quite a few blowouts.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Meh, the NH nations have looked pretty strong against the SH teams but you can't underestimate the advantage of home field for these tests. IMO only Ireland exceeded expectations and I feel that if it had been the NH teams travelling to the SH to play NZL, SA and Aus there would have been quite a few blowouts.

Most of those June games were tight affairs though... just looked and there were quite some blowouts as well; I seem to forget those quickly. Still, England lost the first two by 5 and 1 before the blow out in no.3, Wales were their own worst enemy at the end in the 2nd match vs SA and though Aus blew France out of the water in 1 and 3 the 2nd test was a bizarre 6-0 affair.

On an aside, do we count Ireland vs Argentina? We probably should start too in these NH vs SH discussions.

 

[Peat]

I don't see any change between this year and last year, unless you're Irish.

The diet will continue; a lot of tight results going the SH's way, a few whuppings and a few NH victories in unlikely circumstances/against Australia.

People remark on tighter defence - England nearly conceded as many points in two games this year as they did in the three big ones in 2012. That ain't progress.

 

[Big Ewis]

I never thought this thread would get this many replies, well actually wait...
Of course the gap is there, it doesn't matter we're actually beating some of those SANZAR teams. We're not as good, period. You can see it on a number of levels: England have a powerful pack, but South Africa bulldoze you over* and tic tic tic 3 or 4 quick passes out wide and they've scored a try. They'll SMASH Wales at home like they're tier 2. England doesn't do that, in somewhat of the same register (Eng and SA).

New Zealand is out of reach for anyone, they will even put 50 on Australia...

And Australia themselves, the weakest of the three, are a much better oiled machine than any of us (bar Ireland, to whom they only barely lost to on an away tour). They commit a perfect amount at the breakdown (never too many never too few), keep the ball brilliantly and confiscate insuring possession, often get good territory, have great mobility and power throughout the xv including a pack with fantastic workrate, they adapt and react in situations very well, play intelligently and their collective form as one/game plan can vary within one same match from situation to situation...and then their skills individually are much better than ours in Europe.
Whether we can smother them with great defense and call a Test match our own after 80min with a 1-3point margin doesn't change the fact we don't have everything I've just described.

Of course OF COURSE the gap is still there, and it's perfectly pointless to bring that up every 4-month cycle.

* I don't mean that as in SA bulldozes England specifically, I mean "you" as whoever you are. Like "South Africa will bulldoze you" with their pack.

 

[Peat]

England have a powerful pack, but South Africa bulldoze you over and tic tic tic 3 or 4 quick passes out wide and they've scored a try.

I don't think we have a powerful pack, but neither do I think South Africa bulldozed us up front. They beat us because their half-backs were far superior to ours that day and because their backs showed some wonderful opportunism.

Which is scary tbh, South Africa can offer a more powerful pack and cannier half-backs than those that started against us.

 

[Big Ewis]

I don't think we have a powerful pack, but neither do I think South Africa bulldozed us up front. They beat us because their half-backs were far superior to ours that day and because their backs showed some wonderful opportunism.

Which is scary tbh, South Africa can offer a more powerful pack and cannier half-backs than those that started against us.

uhm dude I don't give a shiit about the Eng vs SA matchup here read my comment again I'm just talking generally about how good SA are and how ENG aren't as good and imposing despite having a somewhat similar style.

Yeah, like Rory Kock...oh, hmm...

 

[tituslechmakus]

Well the main problem in those tests is that it has not interest for WC performances. They are not based on the same physical and mental conditions. When WC happens, every team has a 2 months preparation, which makes a huge difference. France is crap during June tests and inconstant in November, but always reach the semis (except 91) in WC.
And more, on all the WC since 87, only the 99 edition has seen the 3 Sanzar teams reaching the semis, and only 95 to have 2 of them in final. NZ, Aus, Eng and Fr share the record of 3 finals (I know we are the only one to have lost them all)

So maybe NH gets always crushed in tests, but the gap is reduced to nothing in WC.