Ford with the default MOTM because no one was really good enough for it.
"He was at the heart of the tries cliche cliche cliche"
"He was at the heart of the tries cliche cliche cliche"
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[November Tests 2017 EOYT] England vs. Samoa (25/11/2017)
- Thread starter TRF_heineken
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England's performance across a whole game is just too inconsistent. At their best they are fantastic and then they have periods where they are just awful.
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Missed the game, England still winning ugly?
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Goodey
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Frustrating game to watch but the backs managed to put together some really nice plays at the end regardless of the lack of phase ball. This Samoa side also brought a hell of a lot of athleticism into their play which held us back for some time, which y'know, they're allowed. And in the end England still scored plenty.
I'd say Care let himself down but also reminded people why he doesn't start, and that England's bench strength in general has led to performance in the last 15 minutes making him look more effective than he probably is. I still think he's a good player but hopefully the trend of whichever 9 ends the game looks good is enough to demonstrate what's really going on.
Felt the ref ended up encouraging a very disjointed affair by letting the defending side get away with breakdown infringements, hence why neither side were able to recycle. England played poorly at the breakdown because they failed to adapt to it, but I'm not worried about it given I haven't seen it happen in internationals recently ans I doubt we will any time soon.
I'd say Care let himself down but also reminded people why he doesn't start, and that England's bench strength in general has led to performance in the last 15 minutes making him look more effective than he probably is. I still think he's a good player but hopefully the trend of whichever 9 ends the game looks good is enough to demonstrate what's really going on.
Felt the ref ended up encouraging a very disjointed affair by letting the defending side get away with breakdown infringements, hence why neither side were able to recycle. England played poorly at the breakdown because they failed to adapt to it, but I'm not worried about it given I haven't seen it happen in internationals recently ans I doubt we will any time soon.
fattyforward
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Yet again the England performance was disappointing mainly because of the breakdown. We have so many top class locks and no world class flankers. Put Hill and Back or even Moody in this team and it would be a cricket score.
j-dawg
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Getting on a bit aren't they?
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Moody would probably still try to tackle a lamp post head first if you taped a rugby ball to it though
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Very worrying that Samoa’s back row completely outplayed ours.
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Really pleased for our Bristol lads today, did us and Samoa proud.
Eh make that's many changes with an entirely untried centre paring and that's what you get....
1 loss in 2 years I'll take that.
1 loss in 2 years I'll take that.
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I dont really rate loz as a 10 with others that are available but at 12 he gives faz a run for his money.
Slade actually got them balls to hand that he panic threw last week and bagged himself a try.
Genge carried hard but also took the ball standing still a few times.
Simmonds had a pretty good game carried hard but we seen jamie george out wide a few times and simmonds carrying like bill/hughes style 8. Id have liked to see him out wide and george carrying hard , getting him a more space and breaks, like he did v newcastle
All in all large amount of changes we didnt do to badly. As usual decent performance and came back at the end to flatter the scoreline.
Slade actually got them balls to hand that he panic threw last week and bagged himself a try.
Genge carried hard but also took the ball standing still a few times.
Simmonds had a pretty good game carried hard but we seen jamie george out wide a few times and simmonds carrying like bill/hughes style 8. Id have liked to see him out wide and george carrying hard , getting him a more space and breaks, like he did v newcastle
All in all large amount of changes we didnt do to badly. As usual decent performance and came back at the end to flatter the scoreline.
I think Simmonds given half a chance could be a very good international. But you're right, he's never going to do the 1st receiver hit ups. He seems like he could play similar to Faletau, always popping up on the wing and supporting breaks with strong carries.
Loz did look really good too but to compete with Farrell for the position he would have to be head a shoulders above. Farrell seems to be a bit of a talisman for this team and I think Eddie would be really reluctant to drop him.
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How would you lot rate Robshaw this series? He played every mintue but i remember him givig away a few pens and being out tackled by Underhill
Underhill for 6 in the future.
Underhill for 6 in the future.
I would be happy to see Lawes and Billy v and an open side going forward the trouble is we don't have one
One injury a piece is injury prone now?
Underhill missed the beginning of the season and has had two concussions the Currys never seem to make the England team for one injury or another
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I've gathered some stats for this. I think everyone will agree here that Robshaw is a workhorse player, he makes high numbers of tackles and does nothing else; his carries are often ineffective and the tackles he makes aren't high impact tackles, he gets them down but never drives them back. Now I'm in no way against work horse players, every team needs a work horse however how much of a workhorse Robshaw actually is these days is questionable.
Argentina
Lawes - 24
Underhill - 21
Vunipola - 19
George (Bench) - 12
Kruis - 12
Robshaw - 11
Williams (Bench) - 10
Hughes - 9
Simmonds (Bench) - 9
Launchbury (Bench) - 8
Genge (Bench) - 7
Cole - 6
Hartley - 5
This was a poor game from Robshaw. To come 6th on the tackle count, behind 3 players that spent less time on the pitch (50 minutes less in George's case) is pretty dire, especially for a "work horse." Not only that, but he's made less than half as many tackles as the top tackler and only one more than a substitute tighthead and only 2 more than Simmonds who spent 10 minutes on the pitch. In this game you have to say he didn't at all earn his shirt; considering that Simmonds is also a far more effective carrier, it would've been far better to start him at 6.
Australia
Launchbury - 19
Itoje (Bench) - 16
Robshaw - 11
Hartley - 9
Lawes - 9
Vunipola - 7
Hughes - 7
George (Bench) - 5
Cole - 5
Marler (Bench) - 2
Simmonds (Bench) - 2
Underhill - 2
Williams (Bench) - 0
This was a better game from Robshaw but still, IMO, not good enough. He's been largely outscored by the two players above him (one of which came off the bench) and is only just beating Hartley who spent 30 minutes less time on the pitch, and is a front rower. If you once again compare Robshaw to Simmonds, Simmonds once again spent 10 minutes on the pitch and made 2 tackles. Robshaw spent 80 minutes on the pitch and made 11 tackles, so 1.375 tackles every 10 minutes. Again, defensively he's been outdone by the reserve back rower and doesn't offer as much as him in attack either and once again, has not earned his shirt.
Samoa
Simmonds - 14
Robshaw - 14
Ewels - 10
George - 9
Lawes (Bench) - 9
Itoje - 7
Cole - 5
Launchbury - 5
Marler (Bench) - 4
Williams (Bench) - 2
Genge - 1
Hartley (Bench) - 1
Isiekwe (Bench) - 1
This was Robshaw's best game. He's tied for top tackler along with Simmonds, who is who I've been directly comparing him to. However, whereas Robshaw only made 10 carries and 32 metres, Simmonds made 18 carries and 96 metres. Simmonds got through the same amount of work defensively and got through far more offensively.
Tackles per minutes played
Vunipola - 0.31
Underhill - 0.24
Launchbury - 0.24
George - 0.24
Williams - 0.24
Simmonds - 0.23
Kruis - 0.21
Lawes - 0.20
Itoje - 0.16
Ewels - 0.16
Robshaw - 0.15
Genge - 0.14
Hughes - 0.12
Hartley - 0.11
Cole - 0.08
Marler - 0.06
Isiekwe - 0.06
This speaks for itself. With a few of our locks able to play back row, EJ has lumped locks and back rowers together into the "Back 5" category. Of this back 5 category, Robshaw has been beaten by Underhill, Launchbury, Simmonds, Kruis, Lawes, Itoje and Ewels, all of which offer more offensively. I don't see how his place in the XV can be justified.
