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Pat Lambie may quit rugby

Caitlyn Jenner

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Wow that would be a real shame, I always liked Lambie too. Still pretty young isn't he? Could've had a long Springbok career... I worry something like this could happen to Milner-Skudder with a couple more injuries... some guys just get **** luck.
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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What a shame. Amazing player.

Was reading the article from your link and came across this gem

The Sharks have never had a full season of Lambie in his prime available to them, and this perhaps, is one of the reasons they’ve never won Super Rugby despite being coming close in recent years.[/img]
 

Bruce_ma_goose

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Hopefully not the case and he is able to continue with a head protector. It underlines the importance of eliminating contact with the head, incidental or intentional. Even if it changes the feel of the sport a little.
 

amz

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Hopefully not the case and he is able to continue with a head protector. It underlines the importance of eliminating contact with the head, incidental or intentional. Even if it changes the feel of the sport a little.

Totally agree. In the light of new medical research and considering the amplitude of physical contact, rugby is more dangerous than it used to be . I know myself few old school who moan a lot when they see reds or suspensions for such incidents but

This entered in force in January 2017 so after CJ Stander's charge so he got away with 1 round suspension but imo it should made it clear to players and properly enforced that reckless is as bad as intentional.

http://www.worldrugby.org/news/213339?lang=en
 

TRF_Olyy

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Sounds harsh but he should retire.
I like him a lot as a player but the long term consequences of repeated concussions are very very serious and if the doctors are leaning that way then he should think of his future.

Shontayne Hape wrote an article about how repeated concussions have impacted his life and it's terrifying to read, and then you see CTE in old boxers and NFL players and wonder how many rugby players are headed in that direction.
 

TRF_heineken

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Well this is again a blog post contradicting the official statement.

Sharks have officially stated that Lambie is not considering retirement:
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/lambie-not-considering-retiring-say-sharks-20170614

I think the way in which the Sharks have been handling him shows what a vested interest they have in him and in player safety. There is no point in rushing him back, and getting him half the player he can be.

It would be a real pity if he does eventually retire earlier than expected, as he is still so young, and have a bright future ahead of him for the Sharks and the Springboks. Even in his fragile state now, I'd still pick him ahead of Elton Jantjies for the Springboks.
 

Penne Rara

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I hope he does not, but that may be the wisest option to consider. Such a classy player, what a shame.
 

smartcooky

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Hopefully not the case and he is able to continue with a head protector. It underlines the importance of eliminating contact with the head, incidental or intentional. Even if it changes the feel of the sport a little.

Unfortunately Bruce, the only thing head protectors are good for is protection from cuts and scratches. Concussion occurs when the the head moves (or stops moving) suddenly and the brain impacts the inside of the brain case, so head protectors do absolutely nothing to help in that regard. In fact, that kind of protective equipment can actually make things worse... its why head guards are no longer used in amateur boxing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...cussion-problem-not-solve-it-says-doctor.html
 

Penne Rara

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Unfortunately Bruce, the only thing head protectors are good for is protection from cuts and scratches. Concussion occurs when the the head moves (or stops moving) suddenly and the brain impacts the inside of the brain case, so head protectors do absolutely nothing to help in that regard. In fact, that kind of protective equipment can actually make things worse... its why head guards are no longer used in amateur boxing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...cussion-problem-not-solve-it-says-doctor.html
One way to try and curb concussions would be to wear these ugly facemasks football players use. They're padded on the inside and can damp the shock to a certain extent. But if everyone was wearing them, the players would go all out, and that would be even more dangerous still... I don't really see any way to protect players from concussion, but it is possible to prevent them from returning on the field and limit the effects of concussion if independent doctors were allowed to issue blue cards whenever a player needs rest and/or treatment. This has begun to be experimented but hasn't fully reached pro rugby yet.
 

ratsapprentice

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One way to try and curb concussions would be to wear these ugly facemasks football players use. They're padded on the inside and can damp the shock to a certain extent.

Not to any significant degree.
 

unrated

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It's a real shame with Lambie. He is the type of player that even when he comes back from a 8 month injury and then comes into the team he is our best player on the field hands. But the injuries have just kept on reccuring. Year on year game after game.
This must also affect his psyche. How can you play to your best abliity if you are continuously getting injured. Eventually any normal person would go into protection mode.
 

Bruce_ma_goose

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My point is that it isn't better than nothing.

I don't think that is categorical fact. If it was unquestioned medical fact, why would Finn Russell have been given head protection for a transitional period of 9 months following his return from concussion? Someone with medical expertise must have instructed him to do that (as he threw away his head gear in his first game back and was clearly resistent to it).

The point that wearing head protection can give a sense of security and therefore create risk because people are then being casual with the position of their head is entirely valid, but it does not then automatically follow that having a degree of external cushioning can in no way help reduce the chances of head trauma, including concussion.
 

ratsapprentice

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It is so minimal that you would struggle to measure it.

It is effectively zero, which is all that matters.
 

Bruce_ma_goose

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It is so minimal that you would struggle to measure it.

It is effectively zero, which is all that matters.

On further reading i see where you are coming from but there is not yet certainty. The following paper largely agrees with you:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987604/

But has this key paragraph in the section on rugby (which gives ammunition to either side of the argument)

"These findings, which indicate that rugby headgear does not appear to have a protective effect in concussion prevention, correspond to laboratory findings indicating that headgear are maximally compressed at impacts far below those likely to cause a concussion (71). Because they are unable to absorb additional force well below the threshold at which concussions occur, they would not be expected to have a major effect on the incidence of concussion. However, this ceiling effect may be avoided in future headgear by methods such as modifying padding materials and increasing padding thickness (72)"

To suggest that modifications to rugby headgear could change the occurrence of concussion is more of Ann indictment of recent headgear rather than indictment of all headgear past or present.

The paragraph suggests that sufficient padding would in theory prevent full compression of headgear at the levels of concussion causing impacts, but that this level of padding was not found in the head protectors covered. What is less clear is if that level of padding is achievable on a rugby head protector. Or would you have to go around with an unfeasibly large head protector that would make playing rugby impossible.

I'd also agree that neck muscles may be a more important variable than headgear and, crucially for Pat Lambie, I'd say there probably isn't enough data available at the moment to allow him to make an informed decision - so it'd be a gamble with his health if he was presented with that medical advice (which is totally hypothetical).

But that data will come in time with the amount of money and expertise being thrown at it. I'd say the jury is still out on whether a head protector can ever significantly reduce the susceptibility of concussion rather than assert strongly that it can, or that it cannot.
 

ratsapprentice

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What is less clear is if that level of padding is achievable on a rugby head protector. Or would you have to go around with an unfeasibly large head protector that would make playing rugby impossible.

It's not, the material technology required to make a practicable scrumcap that made any sort of significant reduction in energy hitting the brain does not currently exist.

If/when it is invented, it will have a huge impact (no pun intended) on countless industries - seriously, a material that can absorb kinetic energy in the way we are talking about would make it's inventor a multi-billionaire.
 

Larksea

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I know this is just my observations and should be taken lightly but in my opinion...
as far as headgear goes. standard rugby headgear isn't very thick and doesn't dampen impact very much.
I think thicker headgear like what is used in boxing would help a bit more in some (but not all) situations.
The problem with its use in boxing is that it just allows boxers to take more hits, so the end result is the same or worse.

Rugby has a major problem. Its really interesting how the problem seems to be much worse for Union than League. And rugby union referees are far more strict on contact to the head than league refs. It suggests that the type and frequency of contact that occurs in union is more detrimental. That may not always be direct head contact either... Collisions that contribute to concussion don't need to involve head contact. It just requires sharp acceleration or deceleration of the head.

Funny the two worst head knocks I took as a player which gave me concussion. one was contact with the ground and the other was a head clash with a team mate as we both tackled the same person. But thats fairly meaningless.

The modern problem is that modern athletes are bigger and far more physical. The contacts have far more energy and are a lot more frequent. But there is no known way to train or prepare the brain for the increased energy and frequency of collisions in Rugby.

Hopefully Lambie comes back well, he's a class act.
 
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