"Players will be the red-card-scapegoats as long as Rugby remains terrified of itself"

[ratsapprentice]

https://sport500.co.uk/players-will...as-long-as-rugby-remains-terrified-of-itself/

Good article.

Although I disagree with his proposed solution, I strongly agree with the vast majority of what he says here.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Gotta say I agree overall, probably the best articulated explanation of it I've read.

What is your issue with the proposed solution, and what would you recommend instead?

 

[ratsapprentice]

What is your issue with the proposed solution, and what would you recommend instead?

Accept it's a fundamentally dangerous thing to do.

I think attempts to make the game safer, will just lead to higher and higher standards of safety - which are are in conflict with the nature of contact sports.

Sensitivity begats sensitivity.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I don't like the article one bit. I agree with the underlying message wholeheartedly but the way it's presented is terrible.

Is there another system of law in the civilised world that goes from the legal – the desirable, even – to the ultimate sanction with no steps in between?

Hundreds. Actually no, thousands. Actually, millions.
The most obvious example i can think of is tax evasion vs tax avoidance. One makes you the company's and shareholder's favourite while the other makes you a criminal no one wants to be associated with. The difference? Sometimes is black and white but half the time, a good lawyer and the judge's mood. One gets you a multi-million bonus, the other one a fine and jail time.
And the examples can go from truck drivers (rewarded for being fast, penalized (legally and in-house) for infractions/tickets) to shooting someone on self-defence (can go from being a hero to a criminal).

The thing is, rugby is not as complex as real life. We just keep changing the rules, or interpretation of the rules and that's what ******* annoying.
The question is no longer "was that a penalty/yc/rc? ". The question now is "how will the ref see that?". The level of interpretation for some of these calls is just monstrous.
This is a contact sport and people are getting bigger and faster.

And lowering the tackle area is a **** poor solution. Now all attacking players need to do is go head first and that alone puts them in a catch 22: if they touch the head/shoulders it's a penalty, and if they don't they loose 1/2 mts which sometimes is all the attacker needs. What is the defender supposed to do? Laws should give everyone a viable choice and i don't see that's the case here.

I agree with the fact that we should accept the risk associated with the game.
Otherwise, we'll end up watching sarcastaball very soon.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Accept it's a fundamentally dangerous thing to do.

I think attempts to make the game safer, will just lead to higher and higher standards of safety - which are are in conflict with the nature of contact sports.

Sensitivity begats sensitivity.

It is dangerous yes. BUT we have recently discovered (or are in the process of discovering) that in terms of concussion it is orders of magnitude more dangerous than we ever thought. I agree that it has not been well handled, but I don't think that saying "It's a dangerous game, that's just what it is" is an acceptable solution.

Having said that, I don't know the right solution. Lowering the tackle area won't work, I agree with Cruz_del_sur:

And lowering the tackle area is a **** poor solution. Now all attacking players need to do is go head first and that alone puts them in a catch 22: if they touch the head/shoulders it's a penalty, and if they don't they loose 1/2 mts which sometimes is all the attacker needs. What is the defender supposed to do? Laws should give everyone a viable choice and i don't see that's the case here.

 

[Derpus]

It is dangerous yes. BUT we have recently discovered (or are in the process of discovering) that in terms of concussion it is orders of magnitude more dangerous than we ever thought. I agree that it has not been well handled, but I don't think that saying "It's a dangerous game, that's just what it is" is an acceptable solution.

Having said that, I don't know the right solution. Lowering the tackle area won't work, I agree with Cruz_del_sur:

It's the only viable solution without removing tackling altogether.

 

[Rinkadink]

If you want to see what will happen if you lower the contact area to below the hips as has been suggested in various quarters; Sharples vs Cokasinaga a couple of weeks ago. It's the tackler that gets injured most of the time and forcing them to put their heads in the way of speeding hips and flying knees at funky angles is asking for trouble of all kinds.

At what point do we accept that there are inherent risks and insurance should cover for unfortunate incidents? I don't know if we are there yet but as someone who used to play a bit I know I'd rather not be forced to literally stick my neck on the line/places where it shouldn't be because it's my only option as directed from on high by the rugby PTB.

 

[All Black]

I'm not to trying to start a NH vs SH thing here at all so continue to read without that mentality please.

This article highlights the differences in the brutal looking tackling of the SH and the safe but effective tackling of the NH. I heard the new red card laws were introduced after the heads of the NH were concerned about player safety and Sam Canes tackle on an Irish player a few years ago really pushed these laws into place (correct me if Im wrong on any of that).

Last week when we played the Pumas, Barrett and Crotty smashed a Puma in a perfectly legitimate tackle but because the ref was from France, its seen as horrific and so he penalised. Despite the replays showing no contact with the head, arms wrapping around, pretty much everything legit, it was because the way it looked that he penalised it.

 

[Rinkadink]

Uh, no.

World Rugby and other bodies of all kinds were concerned due to the NFL being sued for mega money in relation to concussions. Could in theory bankrupt the entire game. There really isn't much, if any, difference in tackling from each hemisphere anyway so I'm not sure why you're fishing from that angle.

 

[All Black]

Uh, no.

World Rugby and other bodies of all kinds were concerned due to the NFL being sued for mega money in relation to concussions. Could in theory bankrupt the entire game. There really isn't much, if any, difference in tackling from each hemisphere anyway so I'm not sure why you're fishing from that angle.

It's mainly based on what we've seen and heard from the news, commentators and players that I have known to go over and player over there. The players all come back saying the same thing - it's not as physical over in the north than it is in the south. They dont go for hits as often as they do here.

Look at this video of something we see from time to time here in NZ and is not a penalty here but in the north, it seems illegal. We've got heaps of Samoan players and you should know that Samoans or Polynesians are known for their big hits. We praise tackles like this whilst you guys seem to quickly call for a red card. Listen to the commentary and read the comments just so you know its not just me on this...


Back to the Sam Cane tackle on the Irish guy - referee Jaco Peyper saw it as an accident and nothing really out of the ordinary as tackles are very physical here in the south, but in the north everyone saw it as a red. Canes tackle really brought out the red card IMO because the tight laws followed after that tackle. This line doesnt state that but for what its worth...

"The new directive of the tackle in rugby union is supposed to stamp out the forceful shoulder charge and it is supposed to clamp down severely on any contact with the neck or head."​

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/watc...bbie-henshaw-was-not-punished-properly-103563

I'm not trying to say we're harder or anything like that, were all the same. I'm just pointing out a real difference.

 

[Rinkadink]

So that tackle on Foden is legal from my brief viewing at work on mobile and you're making a huge error in thinking anyone agrees with Stuart Barnes or that the guy speaks any kind of sense or is even sober! I could talk about Stuart Barnes the ex-Bristol player who left for Barf in an underhanded manner, who as a good kicker managed to miss an absolute sitter at full time to win the JPT, the Barnes who is so out of touch with the modern game, the one thing Barnes does well; uniting supporters in their condemnation of him... you'll be using Dewi Morris or Eddie 'effin' Butler as examples next. Oh, and don't get me started on the international Kiwi and Aussie commentary teams (Saffas are generally pretty good)

This may come as a surprise but many of us regularly watch Super rugby and the big hits are no more frequent or larger than any other top tier rugby competition. There really isn't much difference between the hemispheres as a general rule, if backed into a corner I would say the most noticeable one for me is a bigger emphasis on set piece in NH, especially Premiership and Top14.

Anyway, that's mostly opinion and we could go on for ages. Not sure why you're linking to some Irish blog as evidence of World Rugby's concussion guidelines and reasoning? If you search for "World Rugby Concussion" you will find a plethora of scientific studies from the source (World Rugby) and their own media regarding the dangers and why they're doing it; protecting players. Even went through the trouble of making videos for the YouTube generation;

 

[Fuzzy du Plessis]

you'll be using Dewi Morris or Eddie 'effin' Butler as examples next.

It is Dewi Morris, isn't it? But your point about no one agreeing with him still stands.

 

[Rinkadink]

It is Dewi Morris, isn't it? But your point about no one agreeing with him still stands.

Might well have been, was sneaking a peek whilst at work. Either way indeed...

*edit* Yes, it's Dewi in the tackle video. Somewhat related to what I posted earlier; for some reason he has a deep seated loathing of Bristol and had a full-blown meltdown over a perfectly legal tackle by Leiua in one of our championship games (last year, I think?) whilst it was on Sky. Best part of being in the prem is avoiding the likes of him! Wonder if it's online somewhere, might look tomorrow.