Question for the Kiwi posters

[Kiwiwomble]

What country has complained about it though? Seems like it just SJ from the article. NZ Herald + Stuff NZ are poor media outlets, need to go in the bin alongside Wales Online and the like.

Everyone I know in the UK loves the Haka, the complaint a fair few have is that teams are limited in their response to it which is very different and not aimed at NZ but rather governing body.

I'm not against limiting its use, undoubtedly some journo will then write how the AB's disrespected this team or that team by not deeming them important enough for the Haka...but i think a lot of us are sick of explaining and talking about it, maybe save it for world cup finals, lions tours, grand slams, players centenary games (both ours and theirs)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...ones-calls-for-all-blacks-to-scrap-bogus-haka

i think ABs should stop doing the haka in europe. if its so controversial then those countries that complain about it ABs should just not do it there. save it for special occasions and countries
i like kirwans article on it and in it he states that its only since the 80's that the haka has been done before every game. before then it was on rare occasions , like the last game of the tour.

everyone knows the 80's were nearly 40 years ago aye....i dont think that counts as a recent development anymore

 

[mania]

What country has complained about it though? Seems like it just SJ from the article. NZ Herald + Stuff NZ are poor media outlets, need to go in the bin alongside Wales Online and the like.

Everyone I know in the UK loves the Haka, the complaint a fair few have is that teams are limited in their response to it which is very different and not aimed at NZ but rather governing body.

but imo we can remove all this controversy by just not doing it.
i really hate scribes criticising it and calling it a marketing ploy etc. that was never how it was intended. it was about expressing mana (pride , personal power , honour) and its a welcome to challenge and compete.

 

[mania]

everyone knows the 80's were nearly 40 years ago aye....i dont think that counts as a recent development anymore

REALLY?!?!? wow im old. 80's doesnt feel 40 years ago.
agree im getting sick of having to explain it every time some journo rips into it as well

 

[Kiwiwomble]

last day of school, this was the farewell to the year 13 school leavers after passing out through the gates, Otago Boys High School Haka

and the leavers reply



traffic management is pretty casual in NZ

 

[Gena_ZA]

As a South African I feel it is only fair that we start burning tyres before the game, on the field

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As a South African I feel it is only fair that we start burning tyres before the game, on the field

To make Wigan-born Owen Farrell feel at home?

 

[Larksea]

I know my response may be kind of unique but I couldn't help but have a giggle.
firstly I never liked the arrowhead formation the AB's adopted this year, and I hope it gets shelved. I'm no kapa haka expert but to me the arrowhead doesn't fit with how the Maori Generally do haka.
but the V formation is a very feminine response and to me it seemed almost submissive. Like " yeah lets be the perfect fit for you?"
Of course England were well and truly up for the contest and won. but still the V just seemed like an attempt to do something different. The fine is stupid but the rule is clearly there from the IRB to keep it from turning into a face to face standoff and distracting from the game.

 

[Cooper]

I'll be honest, I'm open to limiting the Haka to home soil or special occasions.

 

[mania]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...ints-steve-hansens-all-blacks-coaching-legacy

what absolute tripe. hansen has been an excellent coach , end of story. his winning ratio has been insane and he has one WC as assistant and another as headCoach.
u cant win everything and i would challenge any coach to try and win as much has Hansen has. even the next ABs coach will struggle to get the ABs to the performance heights that hansen makes looks so easy
thanks shag, youve been an awesome coach and provided NZ with a golden era of rugby. i know for a fact that hansen absolutely owns the dressing room and has the complete trust of the players. its how he's managed to be so successful for so long.

 

[Cooper]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...ints-steve-hansens-all-blacks-coaching-legacy

what absolute tripe. hansen has been an excellent coach , end of story. his winning ratio has been insane and he has one WC as assistant and another as headCoach.
u cant win everything and i would challenge any coach to try and win as much has Hansen has. even the next ABs coach will struggle to get the ABs to the performance heights that hansen makes looks so easy
thanks shag, youve been an awesome coach and provided NZ with a golden era of rugby. i know for a fact that hansen absolutely owns the dressing room and has the complete trust of the players. its how he's managed to be so successful for so long.

Fair enough Mania, I really respect his previous achievements too. But I've been disappointed with the final few years. The motivation wasn't there, the fire in the belly was no longer there like it was when he first took over. I think our performance vs England warrants questioning and we shouldn't silence those who want to question it.

 

[40/20]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...ints-steve-hansens-all-blacks-coaching-legacy

what absolute tripe. hansen has been an excellent coach , end of story. his winning ratio has been insane and he has one WC as assistant and another as headCoach.
u cant win everything and i would challenge any coach to try and win as much has Hansen has. even the next ABs coach will struggle to get the ABs to the performance heights that hansen makes looks so easy
thanks shag, youve been an awesome coach and provided NZ with a golden era of rugby. i know for a fact that hansen absolutely owns the dressing room and has the complete trust of the players. its how he's managed to be so successful for so long.

Lol I read that article yesterday and my reaction was the exact same.

Absolute ******** isn't it.

And what's really ridiculous is that while Hinton gives all these reasons as to why Hansen can't be considered our greatest ever coach, he fails to say who, in his esteemed opinion, is.

 

[mania]

Fair enough Mania, I really respect his previous achievements too. But I've been disappointed with the final few years. The motivation wasn't there, the fire in the belly was no longer there like it was when he first took over. I think our performance vs England warrants questioning and we shouldn't silence those who want to question it.

England were just an irresistible force that day. it happens.
you cant win everything
but saying that Hansens 87% win ratio isnt too shabby. and saying the last 2 years of his tenure was a failure isnt appreciating how hard he worked, the ABs worked and how worldRugby caught up to the ABs.
if i had to do it all over again Hansen would still be the coach of my choice. no one else in the world could've achieved what Hansen has done. for Hansen and Henry, no coach in 24 years was able to achieve what they did but now that Hansen is finishing people are sticking the knife in saying they shouldve been better.
it couldve easily been worse, ala johnMicthell and RobbieDeans, way worse. Hansens done an awesome job and given the ABs a golden age. thanks Shag, youve served NZ rugby massively

 

[Cooper]

England were just an irresistible force that day. it happens.
you cant win everything
but saying that Hansens 87% win ratio isnt too shabby. and saying the last 2 years of his tenure was a failure isnt appreciating how hard he worked, the ABs worked and how worldRugby caught up to the ABs.
if i had to do it all over again Hansen would still be the coach of my choice. no one else in the world could've achieved what Hansen has done. for Hansen and Henry, no coach in 24 years was able to achieve what they did but now that Hansen is finishing people are sticking the knife in saying they shouldve been better.
it couldve easily been worse, ala johnMicthell and RobbieDeans, way worse. Hansens done an awesome job and given the ABs a golden age. thanks Shag, youve served NZ rugby massively

I made a post in the Welsh game thread about looking at the motivation and how past achievements can affect it.

This actually reinforces my point about continuing with coaches who have won a world cup. At the end if they deliver something that isn't good enough, you can't criticize it because they've won it all in the past before. That is what became of Hansen's last 2 years, the selections, tactics and performances weren't good enough, but we weren't allowed to criticize it. I don't agree with this.

 

[40/20]

Fair enough Mania, I really respect his previous achievements too. But I've been disappointed with the final few years. The motivation wasn't there, the fire in the belly was no longer there like it was when he first took over. I think our performance vs England warrants questioning and we shouldn't silence those who want to question it.

Have to disagree on this Cooper.

For me, the failed campaign was down to a gameplan and selections that didnt work, coupled with opposition that was light years ahead of where they were and quite simply, better than us.

Precisely why selections etc. didnt work will no doubt be dissected in depth over the coming months but things like the lack of a hard running target man in the midfield will likely be a major discussion point, among others.

But all of that is very different to lacking motivation and desire.

 

[40/20]

I made a post in the Welsh game thread about looking at the motivation and how past achievements can affect it.

This actually reinforces my point about continuing with coaches who have won a world cup. At the end if they deliver something that isn't good enough, you can't criticize it because they've won it all in the past before. That is what became of Hansen's last 2 years, the selections, tactics and performances weren't good enough, but we weren't allowed to criticize it. I don't agree with this.

I read that post and I see the point you're making, but the validity of that point assumes the individual is purely motivated by a fear of failure. Where motivation is underpinned by a desire for more success, that no longer holds true.

I dont think a win ratio of 90% indicates fear of failure as the key driver.

 

[Cooper]

I read that post and I see the point you're making, but the validity of that point assumes the individual is purely motivated by a fear of failure. Where motivation is underpinned by a desire for more success, that no longer holds true.

I dont think a win ratio of 90% indicates fear of failure as the key driver.

I liked Rassie's take on their motivation the most, providing hope for the fans and it's being a privilege not a pressure.

But I still think fear and motivation have a close relationship always in sports when it comes to what you have won and what you haven't. It's only natural for people who have won it all before, to subconsciously lose that extra bit of motivation that could be the difference in staying awake 1 more hour at night to analyse the opposition or during a game going that little bit extra harder to secure the 50/50 ball.

Jones said he had been preparing for AB's for many years, I didn't see any preparation in our game plan or selections going into the game, it looked all very thrown together, directionless and rudderless.

 

[mania]

I liked Rassie's take on their motivation the most, providing hope for the fans and it's being a privilege not a pressure.

But I still think fear and motivation have a close relationship always in sports when it comes to what you have won and what you haven't. It's only natural for people who have won it all before, to subconsciously lose that extra bit of motivation that could be the difference in staying awake 1 more hour at night to analyse the opposition or during a game going that little bit extra harder to secure the 50/50 ball.

Jones said he had been preparing for AB's for many years, I didn't see any preparation in our game plan or selections going into the game, it looked all very thrown together, directionless and rudderless.

i disagree. i thought ABs were perfectly prepared before the Ireland game. i was definitely full of hope and though i knew a 3 peat was near impossible i was stil pretty confident that ABs had an awesome chance at it.
Hansen wouldve been the same i imagine. cant be right all the time and Hansen made some gambles that even though they didnt pay off (Mounga and Beudy, scottB on for samCane etc) i doubt that those changes would've made a difference to the outcome. England just had their givenSunday and emptied the tank beating the ABs. it happens. sht happens. i dont think anyone other than Hansen couldve done any better.

 

[40/20]

But I still think fear and motivation have a close relationship always in sports when it comes to what you have won and what you haven't. It's only natural for people who have won it all before, to subconsciously lose that extra bit of motivation that could be the difference in staying awake 1 more hour at night to analyse the opposition or during a game going that little bit extra harder to secure the 50/50 ball.

No arguments from me on the concept. But there are numerous examples in other sports where a history of sustained success hasn't hindered continued performance, but in fact breeds it. Nadal and Federer could've hung up their racquets years ago, the Storm have been NRL benchmarks for the last decade, likewise the Patriots in the NFL.

Yes the public and media have taken the loss almost unusually well and yes, that could be down to previous success breeding a degree of acceptance. However I don't think we should mistake that for even a hint of apathy within the team itself. If results are the only possible indicator, there's any number of other possible reasons for that.

Jones said he had been preparing for AB's for many years, I didn't see any preparation in our game plan or selections going into the game, it looked all very thrown together, directionless and rudderless.

I have a different view on this. My sense is they had a clear plan, but unlike previous cycles, that plan didn't come together in time. Key players being injured or unavailable at key times leading into the campaign all contributed to this IMO.

The dual play making option is a good example of this with Barrett only shifting back to 15 this year after McKenzie, who had been groomed for the role last year, did his ACL.

Likewise Savea belatedly shifting to 6 this year. His form no doubt demanded his inclusion as a starter anyway, but if Squire had been fit and available, the decision would've centered on whether Savea or Cane starts at 7, as opposed to shifting one of them to the other side.

But all of that doesn't suggest a lack of planning. Just decisions (some forced, some not) that didn't work out. It also suggests our much vaunted depth is even lighter than we had started to fear.

If anything, I think the long term success has bred an unrealistic expectation among ourselves, as opposed to the team. IMO, Hansen is our greatest ever coach but I don't think us losing some key games necessarily meant he was operating below his peak. Sometimes others are simply better, despite our best efforts.

 

[Cooper]

No arguments from me on the concept. But there are numerous examples in other sports where a history of sustained success hasn't hindered continued performance, but in fact breeds it. Nadal and Federer could've hung up their racquets years ago, the Storm have been NRL benchmarks for the last decade, likewise the Patriots in the NFL.

Yes the public and media have taken the loss almost unusually well and yes, that could be down to previous success breeding a degree of acceptance. However I don't think we should mistake that for even a hint of apathy within the team itself. If results are the only possible indicator, there's any number of other possible reasons for that.



I have a different view on this. My sense is they had a clear plan, but unlike previous cycles, that plan didn't come together in time. Key players being injured or unavailable at key times leading into the campaign all contributed to this IMO.

The dual play making option is a good example of this with Barrett only shifting back to 15 this year after McKenzie, who had been groomed for the role last year, did his ACL.

Likewise Savea belatedly shifting to 6 this year. His form no doubt demanded his inclusion as a starter anyway, but if Squire had been fit and available, the decision would've centered on whether Savea or Cane starts at 7, as opposed to shifting one of them to the other side.

But all of that doesn't suggest a lack of planning. Just decisions (some forced, some not) that didn't work out. It also suggests our much vaunted depth is even lighter than we had started to fear.

If anything, I think the long term success has bred an unrealistic expectation among ourselves, as opposed to the team. IMO, Hansen is our greatest ever coach but I don't think us losing some key games necessarily meant he was operating below his peak. Sometimes others are simply better, despite our best efforts.

I don't think the plan for the squad was clear. We didn't know our best centre pairing going into the knock-outs. We started Crotty vs South Africa in the opener, then Goodhue started vs Ireland and England. Same goes for Jordie over Ben Smith after Jordie played OK vs Namibia, suddenly he was in the 23 in the knock out round on the back of that performance after being in the periphery for much of the build up to the competition - That looks all pretty thrown together, lacking continuity by a coach that's too comfortable in his job and can afford to make awful selections like the Jordie one without any repercussions. Tactically it was Foster who reinvented our attack too. I'm actually not sure what Steve tried to do that was new, basically he kept the same approach by not committing numbers to the breakdown and trying to get the ball wide, a strategy that got completely owned by a decent backrow and rush line defence.

If we had a new coach that tried that tactics and selections in a semi-final he would've been absolutely slaughtered, let's be honest and clear about that, they would have been. But because it was Steve Hansen and yes he is our greatest coach ever, he's been given basically a free pass for this hiding we endured. You can argue he deserves it given his record, but this all ties back to my point about having someone in the job too long after a run of success.

In hindsight there's literally no point we would've have fired him or he would have left, so it is all conjecture, but I find it interesting psychology and maybe a way to keep the ball rolling in the future after successful world cups. Because to me, that group of players and talent certainly had another RWC win in them.

 

[40/20]

I don't think the plan for the squad was clear. We didn't know our best centre pairing going into the knock-outs. We started Crotty vs South Africa in the opener, then Goodhue started vs Ireland and England. Same goes for Jordie over Ben Smith after Jordie played OK vs Namibia, suddenly he was in the 23 in the knock out round on the back of that performance after being in the periphery for much of the build up to the competition - That looks all pretty thrown together, lacking continuity by a coach that's too comfortable in his job and can afford to make awful selections like the Jordie one without any repercussions. Tactically it was Foster who reinvented our attack too. I'm actually not sure what Steve tried to do that was new, basically he kept the same approach by not committing numbers to the breakdown and trying to get the ball wide, a strategy that got completely owned by a decent backrow and rush line defence.

If we had a new coach that tried that tactics and selections in a semi-final he would've been absolutely slaughtered, let's be honest and clear about that, they would have been. But because it was Steve Hansen and yes he is our greatest coach ever, he's been given basically a free pass for this hiding we endured. You can argue he deserves it given his record, but this all ties back to my point about having someone in the job too long after a run of success.

In hindsight there's literally no point we would've have fired him or he would have left, so it is all conjecture, but I find it interesting psychology and maybe a way to keep the ball rolling in the future after successful world cups. Because to me, that group of players and talent certainly had another RWC win in them.

Yep fair points, especially regarding midfield and Jordie's continued selection. I wasnt able to wrap my head around those things either.

Also agree that group of players could've won another WC but they needed a far more settled preparation given their relative inexperience and I firmly believe the plan was there, but disrupted by key injuries at key times.

I think we need to be careful about giving Foster too much credit though. For instance it was Hansen's call to try Rieko on the left wing which Foster originally resisted. And if we're saying Hansen erred by employing a strategy of playing wide that got nullified, well, that was Foster's domain as attack coach too. Which is why I'm absolutely against him getting the gig next year. But we have another thread for that...

Re: coach tenure... I think there's definitely a balance to be struck. For years we punted the previous group and started again and it took the one time we tried something different to finally pull it off again. Extended tenures can work well - Alex Ferguson, Bill Belichick and Craig Bellamy are good examples - but I agree the challenge is in getting the timing right and how that's done for future cycles will be very interesting. Maybe we went from one extreme to the other but now need to find the middle ground that works best.

The thing is, at the end of RWC15, Shag was probably our best option anyway to rebuild a team that had lost so much experience. Looking back, that '15 team featured two of the best players the world has ever seen playing key roles at 10 and 7 in the knock out stages, we had probably our best ever midfield combination operating at its peak and with Read and Kaino alongside the skipper, arguably our best ever loose trio as well.

We were incredibly blessed and maybe it's taken this campaign to highlight just how much so. And just how hard it really was to rebuild from it.