rebuilding after the world cup

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by feicarsinn, Sep 16, 2007.

  1. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    ok so straight after the wc a team needs to start looking ahead to 2011. england completely failed in this after 03 and look at them. now while ireland will not win the world cup (or even come close by the looks of it) if we are not to embarras ourselves in '11 november is when to start. first thing that should be done is identify who can and cant be there out of the current squad
    heres ireland wc squad their age in four years and now and if they can realisticlly compete in four years
    Name Current age Age in 2011 Can they make it
    S.Best 29 33 maybe, but he must improve
    J.Hayes 33 37 oh god no
    M.Horan 30 34 i hope not
    B.Young 25 29 must improve seriously
    R.Best 25 29 probably
    J.Flannery 28 32 same
    F.Sheahan 31 35 not good enough now
    D.O'Callaghan 28 32 shouldnt start but in the squad
    P.O'Connell 27 31 yes
    M.O'Kelly 33 37 no way
    N.Best 28 32 eh, on the borderline
    S.Easterby 32 36 too old
    S.Ferris 22 26 may start
    A.Quinlan 32 36 thankfully no
    D.Wallace 31 35 as much as i like it, no
    D.Leamy 25 29 should be a star
    E.Redden 26 30 would like to see him start
    I.Boss 27 31 i pray not
    P.Stringer 29 33 same
    R.O'Gara 30 34 could travel as replacement
    P.Wallace 28 32 not good enough now
    G.D'arcy 27 31 as long as he avoids injury
    G.Duffy 26 30 no idea
    B.O'Driscoll 28 32 same as d'arcy
    B.Carney 31 35 not a chance in hell
    D.Hickie 31 34 retiring after 07'
    S.Horgan 29 33 doubt it
    A.Trimble 22 26 hopefully will star
    G.Dempsey 31 35 no
    G.Murphy 29 33 may travel wont start

    so we urgently need props second rows, backrow forwards, a scrum half, at least one fly half and new wingers, in short nearly a new team. if i were over the team after this wc everyone over 30 would be dropped. as good as they may be we have to look to the future and they wont be there in four. currently these names should mature into players of the quality for the '11 wc:
    Rob Kearney (wing/fullback)
    Luke Fitzgerald (wing/fullback)
    Jamie Heislip (No.8)
    Ian Humphries (Fly-Half)
    Johnny Sexton (Fly-Half)
    Keith Earls (Centre)
    Daragh Hurley (prop)
    Darren Cave (Centre)
    Cillian Willis (scrum half)
    Shane Jennings (Flanker)
    (if i've missed any do tell)
    These lads are very important to the future of irish rugby and what they need above all else is GAME TIME. At least five should take part in next year's six nations and i mean a serious part not just subs. a serious development programme should be set up to follow their progression.
    even if all these talents break through which is highly unlikely we still need to find more props and backrow forwards. if connacht is really being seen as a development province then any young props or backrows could be sent on a season long loan to help them progress and get much needed games. at the moment the future of irish rugby looks quite grim and i really hope some top players casn come from the u-21 grandslam winning team

    shite i wanted to mention the possible future team atm:
    1 B young
    2 Flannery
    3 Hurley
    4 O'Callaghan
    5 O'Connell
    6 Heislip (will have to learn)
    7 Jennings
    8 Leamy
    9 Redden
    10 Humphries/Sexton
    11 Fitzgerald
    12 D'arcy
    13 O'Driscoll
    14 Trimble
    15 Kearney
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  3. Ireland certainly will have to rebuild to a large extent come the next World Cup. Fortunately, replacements are coming through.

    At loosehead, Marcus Horan never has been and never will be a great prop. He looks like a squashed backrow forward. s you've mentioned, Simon Best is a possible replacement who can do an average job. Darragh Hurley is developing nicely for Munster and could come to the fore in two years time. He seems like a good scrummager. Cian Healy is an awesome prospect for Leinster and three years down the line could get a chance. There's also Ray Hogan who has just made the move to Bristol. He'll be in his prime come 2011 as will Bryan Young. Ireland will be stronger at loosehead in four years time both in terms of the starter and added depth.

    Both Jerry Flannery and Rory Best are young enough to travel to New Zealand. Behind them it's hard to gauge with Sean Cronin, Denis Fogarty, Richard Sweeney, Brian Blaney, Stuart Philpott and Joe Merrigan all roughly equal in terms of talent. We should be no worse off at hooker in '11.

    Tighthead could be a problem. Hayes is n average scrummager but is imperious around the fringes and at lineout lifting. Simon Best is a short term solution. Longer term, Mike Ross of Harlequins could be an outside bet. Tony Buckley is being groomed by Munster to take over that spot. His scrummaging seemed okay in Argentina during the summer. Other than that, we're struggling with Peter Bracken as an emergency backup, Timmy Ryan of Munster hopefully developing a more rounded game perhaps becoming an option and maybe an outside bet like Ronan Loughney as contenders. Whatever happens, Hayes must be replaced immediately in order to get others up to gamespeed at international level.

    In the 2nd row, Ireland could have a bit of a dads army look about them next world cup. O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, O'Driscoll and Hogan will all still be around but each of them will be in their early 30s. Younger contenders are Matt McCullough, Ryan Caldwell, David Gannon and perhaps Devin Toner or Donnacha Ryan. It's not an area of huge concern and Ireland will be as good here in 2011 as they are now.

    The backrow is about to see an explosion in new talent. Both Stephen Ferris and Jamie Heaslip have already been capped and should have a huge part to play in 2011. Denis Leamy will be right in his prime. David Pollack and Shane Jennings will give Ireland two outstanding opensides. Johnny O'Connor will have a part to play. Sean O'Brien is a very exciting prospect for Leinster. We'll have more depth and competition for places here in 2011 and will be a far stronger unit.

    Scrumhalf won't be a problem like it is at present. Leinster have two cracking prospects in Cillian Willis and Paul O'Donohue. Tomas O'Leary is far from the finished product but he showed signs that he could become a useful player towards the end of last season. Gerry Hurley has been given a lot of gametime for Munster in preseason and although small in stature, he's a classy player. Paul Marshall of Ulster has some ability. Eoin Reddan will be in his prime and should start but we'll have seroius depth there. Scrumhalf could be a strength in 2011.

    At outhalf, I expect Eddie O'Sullivan will wrap O'Gara in cotton wool so that he's still an open in four years time. Other than that, there's Johnny Sexton and Ian Keatley at Leinster, Niall O'Connor at Ulster may develop, Ian Humphreys who's getting a good rugby education with Leicester and still the possibility than Staunton and Wallace could improve. Peter Durcan could become a good player with Connacht. We'll be fine there.

    In the centre both BOD and Darcy will still be around. Unlike today, we'll have huge depth come 2011. Andrew Trimble, Darren Cave, Keith Earls and Eoin O'Malley are all immensely talented. Hopefully Leinster will give Luke Fitzgerald a run at 13 in competitive action this year, as they've done in preseason. Ireland will be able to mix and match in the centre in four years.

    Out wide, neither Hickie, Horgan nor Carney will be options. Hickie is retiring immediately with Trimble likely to slot in. Vasily Artemiev of Leinster is being groomed as a winger. Luke Fitzgerald or Rob Kearney can fill the roll. Tommy Bowe of Ulster is almost a forgotten man of Irish rugby while Leicester's Johne Murphy could ghost into the lineup in a couple of years time.

    At the back, the World Cup should be the last we see of Girvan Dempsey in an Ireland shirt. He's still a quality player but won't be available in four years. Dan Riordan, Gavin Duffy, Geordan Murphy, Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney are the most likely fullback options in 2011.
  4. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    good post but id disagree with you at fly half. cant see wallace or staunton i,roving to become international class
  5. el_tk

    el_tk Guest

    Forget Staunton, he'll never be an international outhalf, same with Wallace. Sexton will have to get a place in the Leinster team which realistically won't happen until Contepomi retires before he can be considered a serious option.
  6. That's the only reason I think Wallace and Staunton may still be in the picture come 2011. O'Gara is undroppable for Munster, as is Contepomi for Leinster. When Dr Humphreys retires, Wallace is the heir apparent for the Ulster 10 shirt (with Niall O'Connor a talented backup). Unless somebody like Durcan comes through for Connacht (or Andy Dunne finally shows some of his undoubted talent), Ireland could be left with a status quo situation in 2011.

    Johnny Sexton is an interesting call because I believe he only has one year left on his Leinster deal. I can't see him sitting behind Contepomi for too much longer so if a Guinness Premiership side comes calling at the end of the year offering him gametime, I think he'll jump.

    Since Contepomi is 30 and has now qualified as a doctor, I can't see him playing longer than 2 or perhaps 3 more years. For Ian Keatley, it could be a case of right place, right time when Dr Phil hangs up his boots.
  7. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    well sexton aint old he is definitly 2nd choice atm but they'll probs give him alot of ML gametime to keep him there
  8. I'd like to think so. Sexton will get a run of a few games for the next few weeks and will hopefully make the most of it. I can't see Cheika giving him much gametime when Contepomi comes back though - maybe a few runouts off the bench will be the total of it.

    In four years time, I'd love it if O'Gara's competition came from Sexton and Keatley rather than the current backups. I feel one or other of the young Leinster players will have to make a move elsewhere for that to happen.
  9. el_tk

    el_tk Guest

    Contepomi is retiring in 2009 which would give Keatley/Sexton 2 years to establish themselves. I'm not convinced by Sexton's distribution or running but he's certainly a fine kicker. Keatley's more cavalier attitude would suit Leinster better.

    Forget Durcan. Only cos he plays for Connacht. Simply won't get a look in.
  10. I think that attitude in the IRFU is changing. Gavin Duffy is on the bench to face France. Johnny O'Connor can put himself back on the map with a couple of good performances. Danny Riordan and Andrew Farley were both in the extended Ireland squad during summer training. David Gannon and John Lyne have both captained the Ireland U21s. Having said that, Durcan is an massive outsider to be in the running at 10 come 2011. He's very raw and has to beat out Tim Donnelly and Andy Dunne before he can even make the Connacht side.

    I wasn't sure whether Contepomi signed a two or three year deal. For Ireland's sake, it's good news that it's just for a couple of years. You're right about Sexton he has a strong kicking game but he's developing his running/passing game under David Knox. Keatley came on leaps and bounds playing in the centre for Ireland U19 for a season; it made him a far more rounded player. He's also a clutch kicker with some game winning performances in the U20 Grand Slam winning side. If Leinster somehow manage to still have both players on their books in 2009, it'll be a nice problem seeing who'll get the nod to take over from Dr Phil.
  11. Fushitsusha

    Fushitsusha Guest

    In regards to Australia - the majority of the forward pack is quite young so they're going to have a pretty experienced pack in place for 2011.

    Possible 2011 Wallaby team -

    1. G Holmes
    2. Moore
    3. Shepherdson/Maafu
    4. Chisholm
    5. Vickerman
    6. Elsom/McMeniman
    7. Smith
    8. Hoiles/Palu
    9. J Holmes
    10. Barnes/Beale/Lealiifano
    11. Turner
    12. Giteau
    13. Ashley-Cooper
    14. Ioane/Fainifo/Gerrard
    15. Shepherd

    Hopefully Tuqiri will be retired or suspended by then...
  12. stevemagoo

    stevemagoo Guest

    2011 if we are lucky - Darren cave, donncha Ryan, david pollock, cian healy, keith earls, shane jennings as potential captain, heaslip, ferris if he stays out of jail, an ageing drico returning from a season for Queensland, cillian willis, sean o'brien, flannery having four more years of toughness, mcfadden, fitzgerald, trimble having spent 4 years living with a skills coach and ditching this god nonsense but above all a COACH WHO WILL REALISE THAT 10 AVERAGE PLAYERS AND 5 SOME-TIME LEGENDS WONT WIN THE WORLD CUP.
  13. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    no matter what you all say you know george gregan will still be there until he dies an old man's death
  14. Fushitsusha

    Fushitsusha Guest

    no matter what you all say you know george gregan will still be there until he dies an old man's death

    Despite the fact he's retiring after the World Cup and moving to France...
  15. bobilycious

    bobilycious Guest

    The All Blacks should have no shortage of players in 2011. The First XV might look like this:

    1.Tony Woodcock - Props get better as they age. He might still be around.

    2.Aled de Malmanche - Playing good rugby. Is quite strong.

    3.Carl Hayman - He is still not very old and he may come back after a while in europe.

    If not Ben Afeaki looks promising

    4.Isaac Ross/Michael Paterson - Both are looking very promising

    5 Ali Williams - Should have enough in him for one more WC

    6 Jerry Collins/Kieren Reid - If Jerry Collins has retired or gets worse Keiren Reid is a worthy replacement.

    7. Richie McCaw - Still a fairly young player

    8. Rodney So'oialo/Liam Messam - Liam Messam is looking to be a great player. Rodney may have enough left in him

    9. Brendon Leonard - Obvious choice. Could be the best in the world by that stage.

    10. Dan Carter/Stephen Brett/Stephen Donald - All are great player. Brett and Donald should be hitting their peak by then.

    11. Sitiveni Sivivatu - Still a fairly young wing. Could get overtaken by a swarm of good wings we have.

    12. Luke McAlister - Will probably come back. They could play Brett or Toeava here.

    13. Toeava/Kahui - Both are real gamebreakers. Toeava the more proven one. Kahui needs to stay injury free.

    14. Josevata Rokocoko - See note for 11

    15. Muliaina? - Don't really know about fullback. Cory Jane maybe.

    Other players that could find their way in: David Smith, Lelia Masaga, Andy Ellis, Alby Mathewson, John Afoa, Tim Bateman, Chris Smith, Luke Braid, John Schwalger, Nick Williams and many more.
  16. Brodizzle

    Brodizzle Guest

    Why space it out so much? Dramatic pauses?

    The Kiwis will have to figure out some way to keep thier players chasing the money in Europe before speaking about the 2011 team...
  17. timmyhoran

    timmyhoran Guest

    There seem to be some teams who are always "rebuilding". NZ hardly ever lose at home so there will need to be a great team to knock them off at home in 2011. I think Australia (I'm obviously biased) is on the verge of producing one of the best teams in our history over the next few years. At least half our current squad will be back and we have some freakish talents coming through in the backs (ie Beale and Turner). Aussie team to look like this in the 2011 Final v NZ.

    1. Holmes (28)

    2. Moore (28)

    3. Shepardson (29)

    4. McMeniman (28)

    5. Chisholm (30)

    6. Elsom (28)

    7. Smith (31)

    8. Palu (29)

    9. Josh Holmes (24)

    10. Barnes (25) or Beale (23)

    11. Turner (23)

    12. Giteau (29)

    13. Ashley-Cooper (28)

    14. Ioane (26)

    15. Shepard

    Of course 4 years is a long time there may be a superstar palying at school right now who no one know's about
  18. stormmaster1

    stormmaster1 Guest

    french clubs have cash to burn, English clubs have a strong pound and speak English. difficult for NZRFU to fight economics.
  19. Seaeagles

    Seaeagles Guest

    Id add Caleb Brown to that, all he needs is a full season of rugby under his belt and he will be a star, and after the recent form Ben Lucas (Sunnybank/Aces/Reds College) he could be a definite number 10 option, thats if he isnt playing half back for the broncos!
  20. scuubasteve

    scuubasteve Guest

    The time AB's head for the pounds or euros is when they're NOT in the frame for the world cup, or after a world cup.

    Those who are going and aren't young enough to come back have signed for 3 years. Players like Hayman and McAlister, who are young enough to play for the AB's in 2011 have only signed for til 2009. So they'll play 2 season making money, then return to NZ to fight for a jersey. Like Leon McDonald and Troy Flavell after the last world cup.

    In terms of the 2011 squad, it'll be pretty much the same as the current one. Minus Oliver and Hore, Sommerville, Jack, Robinson, Kelleher, Mauger, Howlett and McDonald.

    So 21 out of the 30 will be back. With the oldest being Hayman at 32 and So'oialo at 31.

    Lock is the only hole. But Eaton and Ryan are both injured at the moment (ruling them out from 07WC)

    Based on placings at U19 and U21 level over the last 5years it'll be hard to look past the 3Nations teams and France in terms of young talent. But you don't need 15 new super stars every year to build a WC winning team. One or two from each group is all thats needed.

    SA's got some good young talent too. Piere Spies, JP Peiterson, Frans Steyn and Ruan Pienaar are unbelievably young. And will all be very experienced heads come 2011 too.
  21. feicarsinn

    feicarsinn Guest

    Based on placings at U19 and U21 level over the last 5years it'll be hard to look past the 3Nations teams and France in terms of young talent

    hey irish under 20 grandslam winners thankyou
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