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Referee decisions during World Cup

ncurd

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I suspect we get Garces or Peyper; Barnes the choice to ref Wales v SA.
I'd take either over Owens against the ABs whom will let them get away with all kinds of crap. I'd prefer Peyper but I'd take Garces.
 

themole25

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Joubert reffed a QF, SF and the final back in 2011.
I think I went back to 2007 when looking this up. When Rolland and Walsh were the big refs they were less formulaic about things. I tend to believe (have no insider knowledge) that they now want QF, SF, and F to come from same pool with the finalist and semi final referees being different.
 

The_Blindside

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I think I went back to 2007 when looking this up. When Rolland and Walsh were the big refs they were less formulaic about things. I tend to believe (have no insider knowledge) that they now want QF, SF, and F to come from same pool with the finalist and semi final referees being different.
That would make sense based on the 2015 RWC. I don't have any insider knowledge either, but just going by what Jonathan Kaplan said in a recent article in the telegraph and his opinion that Garces will likely get the final. With France going out, his run to ref either semi or the final is now clear. Not so much the other 3, where their teams are still involved and getting to the final would effectively rule them out.
 

TRF_heineken

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Can I just say, I thought Barnes allowed Japan to get away with a lot of things today, but he did something great by doing that, he allowed the local crowd and country to be involved and supportive of their team for a long time in the match.

let them bow out by having a valiant effort and keep their dignity in tact.
 

Rinkadink

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Can I just say
No, no you cannot. :p

I thought he was pretty even handed bar the one big call, which could and maybe should have been a red card. I'm happy enough though, overall still one of the best if not the best ref in the game.
 

TRF_heineken

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No, no you cannot. :p

I thought he was pretty even handed bar the one big call, which could and maybe should have been a red card. I'm happy enough though, overall still one of the best if not the best ref in the game.
he’s miles ahead of the other refs at the tournament IMHO.

he missed a lot of forward passes by Japan today. A lot!!
 

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Reffing has gotten way better as the tournament has progressed. No rugby game will ever be perfectly reffed, but it's been good.
 

Curls

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The standard across the board is falling.

The issue is the project referee programs unions are running. They take failed pros or injured academy guys and try to develop them as referees. Many of them have no natural talent for it but they clog up the development chain. Talented referees who cannot get up the ladder then get frustrated and pack it in. It’s almost a brain drain. You see it a lot during the 6 nations window in the pro 14. Referees who are nowhere near the standard required refereeing games and drowning.
At test level it seems WR are reluctant to dispense with guys who are not good enough.

A good example is Angus Gardner. He was lost in the France v Argentina game and was very poor in the Ireland v Japan game. He was pulled off his next game and is now going to run touch only it seems. Since early 2018 he has shown he’s not up to Test rugby but WR stuck with him and now they have to sleep in the bed they made.

Big question is once Barnes, Owens and Graces go, who’s going to referee the big games?
 

ncurd

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They need to adopt whatever program the RFU are using not only has it produced Barnes we also have Pearce whom no one had any beef with and JP Doyle isn't even there. Carley I'm a bit blank on but I like Dickson too.

Now if the other nations could actually produce some ref they can offciate us I'd be happy.
 

TRF_heineken

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They need to adopt whatever program the RFU are using not only has it produced Barnes we also have Pearce whom no one had any beef with and JP Doyle isn't even there. Carley I'm a bit blank on but I like Dickson too.

Now if the other nations could actually produce some ref they can offciate us I'd be happy.
But that’s going to be extremely tough. The SH referees officiate differently than the NH refs. And that’s not going to change because of how the teams this side plays as opposed to the North.

There are just way too much inconsistencies and varied interpretations of the laws to allow a single way to officiate.

O’Keefe is the youngest ref at the WC. And he is improving every year. And I feel sorry for Gardner, he has no real support in Aus from other good referees, he’s a lone wolf.
 

The Alpha Bro

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O’Keefe is the youngest ref at the WC. And he is improving every year. And I feel sorry for Gardner, he has no real support in Aus from other good referees, he’s a lone wolf.
Nic Berry is far better than Gardner!
 

TRF_Olyy

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They should do referee exchange programs in the lead up to the world cup - get some SHers up north and vice versa, to expose them to the different play styles
 

ncurd

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But that’s going to be extremely tough. The SH referees officiate differently than the NH refs. And that’s not going to change because of how the teams this side plays as opposed to the North.

There are just way too much inconsistencies and varied interpretations of the laws to allow a single way to officiate.

O’Keefe is the youngest ref at the WC. And he is improving every year. And I feel sorry for Gardner, he has no real support in Aus from other good referees, he’s a lone wolf.
One when it comes rugby I always find it bullshit that we allow SH and NH to be reffed in different ways. There needs to be some consistency coming from WR from grass roots up to how refs are supposed to go about the game. We shouldn't be getting to international level and going ah well this ref was bought up in a different system.

As to refs themselves when was the last time there was a genuinely great SH ref. Peyper gets by but everyone else of note currently is a NH ref and nobody from the SH seams to want their refs either.

Gardner was a hope and still have anchance but really considering we keep getting told how great the ABs are why can't can't they produce an international quality ref? Clearly something isn't working in the SH systems whilst English refs seam to be churning them out.
 

TRF_heineken

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One when it comes rugby I always find it bullshit that we allow SH and NH to be reffed in different ways. There needs to be some consistency coming from WR from grass roots up to how refs are supposed to go about the game. We shouldn't be getting to international level and going ah well this ref was bought up in a different system.

As to refs themselves when was the last time there was a genuinely great SH ref. Peyper gets by but everyone else of note currently is a NH ref and nobody from the SH seams to want their refs either.

Gardner was a hope and still have anchance but really considering we keep getting told how great the ABs are why can't can't they produce an international quality ref? Clearly something isn't working in the SH systems whilst English refs seam to be churning them out.
But who’s reffing style is better?? SH refs allow more advantage and the game is more fluent which allows more open play and usually more tries. NH is way more technical in interpretation, less advantage being played and stricter on certain things. Which is a bit stop-start.

There is no way that the SH guys will just adopt a NH way of refereeing or vice versa.

plus the way the Countries’ unions give directives for local refs to officiate local matches, also puts a damper on the plan to have 1 method.
 

themole25

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Kaplan was probably the last great SH ref. Joubert was probably up there. South Africa take developing refs seriously and I was fortunate enough to train there. Basically there’s rugby everyday so you get lots of games in.

developing refs is hard. It’s tough to talk guys into a full time environment if they have a high paying job (let’s face it most refs come from good backgrounds) and you don’t really identify who you want to give a full time job until they are in the late 20s.

ex players will always be preferred since they are super fit individuals with large amount of rugby knowledge who are unlikely to be a doctor or lawyer.
 

TRF_heineken

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Kaplan was probably the last great SH ref. Joubert was probably up there. South Africa take developing refs seriously and I was fortunate enough to train there. Basically there’s rugby everyday so you get lots of games in.

developing refs is hard. It’s tough to talk guys into a full time environment if they have a high paying job (let’s face it most refs come from good backgrounds) and you don’t really identify who you want to give a full time job until they are in the late 20s.

ex players will always be preferred since they are super fit individuals with large amount of rugby knowledge who are unlikely to be a doctor or lawyer.
Well, we’ve had Andre Watson, Jonathan Kaplan and Craig Joubert officiate a WC final. Don’t think any other country has had that when their teams haven’t been in the finals...

And SA is developing a program for referees. The University of Pretoria even has a course for the guys studying sport science. That and the Boksmart programme has been immense in getting a lot more referees involved and developed from schoolboy level upwards.

we might not have the right guys right now, but soon we’ll have a bunch of guys of top quality.
 

themole25

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Well, we’ve had Andre Watson, Jonathan Kaplan and Craig Joubert officiate a WC final. Don’t think any other country has had that when their teams haven’t been in the finals...

And SA is developing a program for referees. The University of Pretoria even has a course for the guys studying sport science. That and the Boksmart programme has been immense in getting a lot more referees involved and developed from schoolboy level upwards.

we might not have the right guys right now, but soon we’ll have a bunch of guys of top quality.
Yeah I was at the South Africa referee academy which is closely tied to Maties.

from the young and upcoming guys I know in South Africa the union is asking a lot of guys in terms in taking time off from work. It’s hard taking weeks off from work to go to all the different youth weeks when you’re trying to impress your boss.
 

TRF_heineken

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Yeah I was at the South Africa referee academy which is closely tied to Maties.

from the young and upcoming guys I know in South Africa the union is asking a lot of guys in terms in taking time off from work. It’s hard taking weeks off from work to go to all the different youth weeks when you’re trying to impress your boss.
That’s why the unions are investing in these projects at the universities, so that the guys start refereeing while they are students and then get paid to officiate games. This boosts their income and helps them get more experience.

The plan is to get a group from every region and employ them on a permanent basis as referees and consultants.

Like during the U/20 championship this year, one of the young referees went with the squad to the World Cup and advised them on laws and so on.
 

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It’s tough to talk guys into a full time environment if they have a high paying job (let’s face it most refs come from good backgrounds) and you don’t really identify who you want to give a full time job until they are in the late 20s.

ex players will always be preferred since they are super fit individuals with large amount of rugby knowledge who are unlikely to be a doctor or lawyer.
This is the nail hit on the head here.

I was involved in refereeing to a relatively high level and aspired to go as high as I could but my career would not allow for it and I know that is the same for a lot of guys. If someone was busting a hump to get out from work to ref and then got passed over unfairly for advancement they jacked it in. I saw 5 or 6 really top notch guys with bags of potential tell the union that they just couldn’t fit it round work anymore.

The ex player argument is interesting. In theory you would think that it would be seamless but in my experience a lot of them are expert in their own piece of the puzzle and not so great at others. The problem is unions take a guy, say an injured pro, and they decide they want him to referee at the level he played with 2 seasons. So now you have top national level games being officiated by inexperienced referees. The guys who have done 3/4 years with potential to come through then see this and decide that negotiating that half day mid week to referee or train around work etc is not worth it especially if you need to put food on that table.
 

duncanb

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Generally officiating has been decent enough TMOs seem to have stepped in a lot mainly due to WRs insistence with lowering the tackle height.
This will undoubtedly be debated till cows come home and coaches and players finally change tactics.
JP fell out with world rugby so wont be back Pearce could make step up I think.
Williams looks he has it.
Carly as well should make it.
Berry seems ok for what little I've seen of him.
O'keeffe is good.
Gardner needs a little help but could make it still.
The 2 Frenchman are good as well.
I've no doubt missed a few but expect unions to keep developing.
 
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