RO'G to Retire

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

A grand slam, three triple crowns, two heinken cups, three celtic league ***les, at the end of the day the records dont lie, regardless of his limitations in certain areas, ROG made the most of what he had and carved out a fine career. Certainly achieved more than most Good luck to him.

 

[psychic duck]

A grand slam, three triple crowns, two heinken cups, three celtic league ***les, at the end of the day the records dont lie, regardless of his limitations in certain areas, ROG made the most of what he had and carved out a fine career. Certainly achieved more than most Good luck to him.

Depends what you mean by don't lie?

As I say he got dealt a very generous deck of cards in his career to help him be part of those sides. His career has been helped no end by circumstance.

But they do lie in terms of how good he was. Far better fly halves have won less, but the fact they have won less doesn't make them worse.

Just look at Andy Goode. 5 Premiership ***les and 2 Heineken Cups, yet nobody goes on about him like he is one of the greats. Just unfortunately for him, unlike ROG he didn't get lucky in that Ireland had so little options at 10 in the years between Humphreys' retirement and Sexton's emergence. Add to that, he somehow managed to get above Humphreys based on luck of the province he played for, and above Sexton for a while based on being Kidney's favourite.

 

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

Depends what you mean by don't lie?

As I say he got dealt a very generous deck of cards in his career to help him be part of those sides. His career has been helped no end by circumstance.

But they do lie in terms of how good he was. Far better fly halves have won less, but the fact they have won less doesn't make them worse.

Just look at Andy Goode. 5 Premiership ***les and 2 Heineken Cups, yet nobody goes on about him like he is one of the greats. Just unfortunately for him, unlike ROG he didn't get lucky in that Ireland had so little options at 10 in the years between Humphreys' retirement and Sexton's emergence. Add to that, he somehow managed to get above Humphreys based on luck of the province he played for, and above Sexton for a while based on being Kidney's favourite.

I mean that if ROG were the mediocre talent that some people claim he was, he'd never won the amount of accolades that he did, no matter how much luck he was blessed with.

And with regards to his luck of being part of winning sides, its not as if he was along for a free ride as part of those teams. He had an immense part to play in basically all of the ***les won by the teams he played for,his steely nerve in his kicking and his underrated attacking ability in his younger days were called upon many times and he bailed his teams out of sticky situations on many occasions.

I now he had his flaws, he was an atrocious tackler at international level, a facet of his game which he never improved on and and he could have the odd bad game, same as any player. I don't quite rate him prime for prime as highly as some of his contemporary's either, namely Carter, Wilkinson and Contempomi, but it wasnt as if it was an era which was lacking in talent at the number 10 jersey was it? I was never the biggest fan of ROG, but some of the opinions ive been hearing of him recently haven't been fair to the man himself or his accomplishments. There seems to be little middle ground in rating ROG for some people. Ive seen him called one of the best in his position and terrible depending on who's opinion it is. Just think a bit of neutrality needs to be shown when talking about him.

 

[Draggs]

Duck, you must right in on Gwlad with your RoG views!

 

[munstermuffin]

Duck I give up but simple fact you don't play for national team or in 10 HEC semi final purely on luck. You might not like him but he was good and will be considered a legend to Munster and Ireland fans. And you say he was poor in all World Cups but he was decent enough in last 1 and in 2003 too. And it's the kicks under pressure after taking battering that made him superb player. But if you don't like/rate him we all know you hate the guy and that fair enough

 

[psychic duck]

And with regards to his luck of being part of winning sides, its not as if he was along for a free ride as part of those teams. He had an immense part to play in basically all of the ***les won by the teams he played for,his steely nerve in his kicking and his underrated attacking ability in his younger days were called upon many times and he bailed his teams out of sticky situations on many occasions.

Underrated attacking ability?

I now he had his flaws, he was an atrocious tackler at international level, a facet of his game which he never improved on and and he could have the odd bad game, same as any player.

Were they "odd bad games" though? He was poor in the big match at 3 RWC's. And poor in 3 Lions tours. That is not "the odd bad game", suggests to me more that

I don't quite rate him prime for prime as highly as some of his contemporary's either, namely Carter, Wilkinson and Contempomi, but it wasnt as if it was an era which was lacking in talent at the number 10 jersey was it? I was never the biggest fan of ROG, but some of the opinions ive been hearing of him recently haven't been fair to the man himself or his accomplishments. There seems to be little middle ground in rating ROG for some people. Ive seen him called one of the best in his position and terrible depending on who's opinion it is. Just think a bit of neutrality needs to be shown when talking about him.

I am showing neutrality. I am just trying to get sense into those who trying to say he is one of the greats, not saying he was terrible when at his level. For most of his career he was good for Munster and did a job behind a good pack.

Duck I give up but simple fact you don't play for national team or in 10 HEC semi final purely on luck. You might not like him but he was good and will be considered a legend to Munster and Ireland fans. And you say he was poor in all World Cups but he was decent enough in last 1 and in 2003 too. And it's the kicks under pressure after taking battering that made him superb player. But if you don't like/rate him we all know you hate the guy and that fair enough

Wrong. ROG did. If you consider how his circumstance he was the luckiest set.

ROG had the luck of playing behind one of the best ever packs in Heineken Cup rugby, this allowed him to be able to just kick to the corners and get points from their hard work. I do give him credit for being good for pressure kicks in the last minute, but I do feel that other fly halves may have got much better out of D'Arcy, BOD etc and that Ireland generation wouldn't have needed a last minute drop goal. I think he was better with Munster than Ireland, more consistent, he was an average at best international fly half. However he was lucky in what team he ended up with, he played behind a pack which allowed him to kick and chip all through his career, contrast that to another non tackling fly half Steffan Jones stuck at the Dragons, if you swapped them teams, I doubt ROG would have ever been able to work his way up from a lesser team where he would get exposed behind a less dominant pack and one that had the ball less often. As I say, he must be luckiest player ever, was at the right place at the right time for an average player to get so many plaudits.

And by the way he was awful in 2003 RWC. He played in the Quarter Final and France were winning 37-0 after 50 odd minutes when he went off one of the tries which was his fault, and without him on the field the final score was 43-21, so they won 23-6 when he wasn't on the field.

Meanwhile as for RWC 2011, he was poor when it counted in the quarter final. So yes, he was crap in every RWC and Lions tour, I don't see how a fly half who was awful in every attempt in the two biggest tournaments can be claimed to be "one of the greats".

Duck, you must right in on Gwlad with your RoG views!

Tbh Draggs, some of them hit the nail on the head.

 

[Superalexmarket]

ROG was retired a long time ago.

 

[Gavin]

2,500+ points for Munster
230+ caps for Munster
1,000+ points for Ireland
100+ caps for Ireland

Nuff said really.

 

[munstermuffin]

Underrated attacking ability?



Were they "odd bad games" though? He was poor in the big match at 3 RWC's. And poor in 3 Lions tours. That is not "the odd bad game", suggests to me more that



I am showing neutrality. I am just trying to get sense into those who trying to say he is one of the greats, not saying he was terrible when at his level. For most of his career he was good for Munster and did a job behind a good pack.



Wrong. ROG did. If you consider how his circumstance he was the luckiest set.

ROG had the luck of playing behind one of the best ever packs in Heineken Cup rugby, this allowed him to be able to just kick to the corners and get points from their hard work. I do give him credit for being good for pressure kicks in the last minute, but I do feel that other fly halves may have got much better out of D'Arcy, BOD etc and that Ireland generation wouldn't have needed a last minute drop goal. I think he was better with Munster than Ireland, more consistent, he was an average at best international fly half. However he was lucky in what team he ended up with, he played behind a pack which allowed him to kick and chip all through his career, contrast that to another non tackling fly half Steffan Jones stuck at the Dragons, if you swapped them teams, I doubt ROG would have ever been able to work his way up from a lesser team where he would get exposed behind a less dominant pack and one that had the ball less often. As I say, he must be luckiest player ever, was at the right place at the right time for an average player to get so many plaudits.

And by the way he was awful in 2003 RWC. He played in the Quarter Final and France were winning 37-0 after 50 odd minutes when he went off one of the tries which was his fault, and without him on the field the final score was 43-21, so they won 23-6 when he wasn't on the field.

Meanwhile as for RWC 2011, he was poor when it counted in the quarter final. So yes, he was crap in every RWC and Lions tour, I don't see how a fly half who was awful in every attempt in the two biggest tournaments can be claimed to be "one of the greats".





Tbh Draggs, some of them hit the nail on the head.

Again you hate the fella fair enough. As I said alot actually majority of people recognise his accolades. And it not easy putting in some of kicks he put in etc. 1 poor game in RWC doesn't make it bad tournament. Warburton had good RWC despite costing Wales semi final. But again it your opinion that he was just lucky well luck is irrelevant as he's won everything bar a RWC

 

[psychic duck]

2,500+ points for Munster
230+ caps for Munster
1,000+ points for Ireland
100+ caps for Ireland

Nuff said really.

Gavin. To be honest, most of those points were off the back of a good mauling pack. The likes of Wallace, Jim Williams etc deserve more credit than they get as they created that.

Just watch this. http://youtu.be/3xjs87MneDY?t=55m22s

Ireland's pack wins a penalty with a lot of hard work and then ROG gets the penalty. And it was a very good kick from a tricky position, but the point is that the pack allowed him to get those points and work just as a kicker who helped them get in good positions. Add to that they had to babysit him in defence too, and ROG was very lucky to have them.

As I said, ROG is generally adored by newer or more casual rugby fans who see the points by his name, but don't understand what it is that allows him to get the points.

As for the caps for Ireland, more luck. It was a lack of options and coaches' preference for a large part. O'Gara had luck of playing in a better team provincially than Humphreys to look better there to challenge him and then Humphreys was getting on after 2003 nobody else came along, between 2003-2009 there was little competition with Paddy Wallace and Jeremy Staunton the back up options, until Sexton came along in 2009. And even when Sexton came along, ROG got luck in the fact the coach had a preference for him, in reality it should have been Sexton' shirt and debate ended after the South Africa match in 2009. But Kidney kept rolling out ROG, his last 20 or so caps have been bench cameos as well.

If he was English, Welsh or Argentine he would have only got a handful of caps. If he was from one of the SANZAR nations I doubt he would have ever got capped at all. If he was in the Scotland team who had to defend a lot and didn't create so many points, nobody would have seen him as much better than Dan Parks.

Again you hate the fella fair enough. As I said alot actually majority of people recognise his accolades. And it not easy putting in some of kicks he put in etc. 1 poor game in RWC doesn't make it bad tournament. Warburton had good RWC despite costing Wales semi final. But again it your opinion that he was just lucky well luck is irrelevant as he's won everything bar a RWC

Not just kicks there Muffin. And also if you consider that was the big game of RWC for Ireland (ROG didn't start vs Australia and Ireland were already winning when he came on), then it is fair to say the fact he didn't deliver in the important game meant it was a pretty poor World Cup.

Warburton isn't comparable. He was very good against South Africa, Samoa and Ireland. So 3 of the 4 big games he played a key role. O'Gara started 1 big game vs Wales and wasn't good, he started against Italy but that were was a huge gulf in that match for whatever reason.

Also ROG hasn't won a Lions tour, and I would argue Ireland have underachieved considering the generation they just had. They seem too happy with just 1 Slam, should have got more out of the years 2004-2009. Curiously though, ROG was actually better in 2007 than he was in the 2009 tournament.

Anyway, this is nothing to do with disliking him, just giving my opinion on his overall game. I look forward to when ROG's fans can point to actual performances in a full match rather than just drop goals and points tallies. I can think of a few where ROG was very good for Munster (Gloucester 2003 springs to mind) and he was good at that level at Munster, however at international with Ireland there are few, certainly fewer than the nightmares.

 

[munstermuffin]

Gavin. To be honest, most of those points were off the back of a good mauling pack. The likes of Wallace, Jim Williams etc deserve more credit than they get as they created that.

Just watch this. http://youtu.be/3xjs87MneDY?t=55m22s

Ireland's pack wins a penalty with a lot of hard work and then ROG gets the penalty. And it was a very good kick from a tricky position, but the point is that the pack allowed him to get those points and work just as a kicker who helped them get in good positions. Add to that they had to babysit him in defence too, and ROG was very lucky to have them.

As I said, ROG is generally adored by newer or more casual rugby fans who see the points by his name, but don't understand what it is that allows him to get the points.

As for the caps for Ireland, more luck. It was a lack of options and coaches' preference for a large part. O'Gara had luck of playing in a better team provincially than Humphreys to look better there to challenge him and then Humphreys was getting on after 2003 nobody else came along, between 2003-2009 there was little competition with Paddy Wallace and Jeremy Staunton the back up options, until Sexton came along in 2009. And even when Sexton came along, ROG got luck in the fact the coach had a preference for him, in reality it should have been Sexton' shirt and debate ended after the South Africa match in 2009. But Kidney kept rolling out ROG, his last 20 or so caps have been bench cameos as well.

If he was English, Welsh or Argentine he would have only got a handful of caps. If he was from one of the SANZAR nations I doubt he would have ever got capped at all. If he was in the Scotland team who had to defend a lot and didn't create so many points, nobody would have seen him as much better than Dan Parks.

Well then luckily for ROG you the only fella that hates him and feels like this.
Just regards luck, can I ask was Sexton lucky so to be playing with the best pack around the last few years and the best backline too??
And when ROG and Sexton had battle between 09 and 11 there was reason for ROG winning some caps as Sexton was poor but you must not watch Ireland.
I'll accept there was little competition for years in green jersey but ROG kept producing in HEC against top opposition and well kicked superbly to corners, kicked well under pressure and while he didn't ever be a masterclass with backs he always had good passing games over years but never had superb backline as Munster played a certain way and backs were signed for certain jobs. Bt again I can't argue with you because you hate fella and you entitled to opinion but I don't understand why you add it in to every thread like if there was a thread on anything you always wriggle to reference it back to ROG and your hatred of him. That is your opinion of him and you entitled to it.

 

[psychic duck]

Well then luckily for ROG you the only fella that hates him and feels like this.

See Gwlad. I certainly not the only fella that dislikes the guy. In fact I used to like him more before, but on further inspection after reading the analysis of Feicarsinn on this forum and a few on Gwlad have articulately shown that he was overrated.

I won't go into the off field stuff around him but I assume you know the sort of stuff and interviews I mean.

Just regards luck, can I ask was Sexton lucky so to be playing with the best pack around the last few years and the best backline too??

There's a difference here. In ROG's case, it hid some of his flaws and allowed him to kick and chip his way through his career and get points for it. Whilst he has had at least as many bad matches such as Heineken Cup final 2000, all Rugby World Cups, Heineken Cup semi final 2009 and of course Lions tours. In fact it was thanks to him bottling out of the 2000 Heineken Cup final that is the reason Munster were known as "the nearly men" for quite a while.

In Sexton's case, he was a far more rounded player. It wasn't the case of just getting points of the pack's back whilst also relying on them to cover up weaknesses (which were exposed wehen they weren't playing well like in RWC 07). He was creating an awful lot of points himself and got far more out of Leinster's backs than ROG did to Ireland's.

And when ROG and Sexton had battle between 09 and 11 there was reason for ROG winning some caps as Sexton was poor but you must not watch Ireland.
I'll accept there was little competition for years in green jersey but ROG kept producing in HEC against top opposition and well kicked superbly to corners, kicked well under pressure and while he didn't ever be a masterclass with backs he always had good passing games over years but never had superb backline as Munster played a certain way and backs were signed for certain jobs. Bt again I can't argue with you because you hate fella and you entitled to opinion but I don't understand why you add it in to every thread like if there was a thread on anything you always wriggle to reference it back to ROG and your hatred of him. That is your opinion of him and you entitled to it.

I do watch Ireland actually, and to be honest I was astonished about how Kidney treated Sexton in 2009-2011. He shouldn't have just been backed as first choice from November 2009 onwards. The fact Sexton didn't do as well as he did with Leinster points a lot to the coaching of Kidney imo. Still was pointless bringing back ROG in that period all the time though.

ROG was good at kicking to the corners normally especially with Munster where I think he was more consistent and better than at international, but I'm arguing he was overrated and got a fortunate deck of cards in his career to help him.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

O'Gara's true value lies somewhere between how munster fans rate him and how psychic duck clearly doesn't rate him.

His limitations are well known. Tackling ability is non existent, late in his career he lost any pace he may have once had, lost length on his kicking game and early in his career he was flaky when the pressure came on.

His positives were his self confidence (important in a 10), mid career goal kicking, game management and his passing when he still carried some threat himself at attacking a gain line.

I'll remember O'Gara as a good player who made the most of his limited physical tools. He stuck around too long much like John Hayes which harms his legacy somewhat. He was never a great of the game but it can't be questioned that he had a few excellent seasons.

 

[psychic duck]

O'Gara's true value lies somewhere between how munster fans rate him and how psychic duck clearly doesn't rate him.

His limitations are well known. Tackling ability is non existent, late in his career he lost any pace he may have once had, lost length on his kicking game and early in his career he was flaky when the pressure came on.

His positives were his self confidence (important in a 10), mid career goal kicking, game management and his passing when he still carried some threat himself at attacking a gain line.

I'll remember O'Gara as a good player who made the most of his limited physical tools. He stuck around too long much like John Hayes which harms his legacy somewhat. He was never a great of the game but it can't be questioned that he had a few excellent seasons.

snoopy snoopy dog dog, I didn't say I didn't rate him. I am not trying to argue, I just think he is overrated from the legend and great status he is given. I also think Ireland could have achieved more in the mid 2000's with a better coach and better fly half.

One point though I disagree on. His passing was never a strength and could get sloppy and also was too easy to read for defences. Just see this ...

<iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WUf04rXis_w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe> <iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WtSo34N_j6w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe> <iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aF1Lb9QdBzk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe> <iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1cLncun7wuE#t=10" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe> <iframe width="400" height="225" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hf2rkaywJVc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

 

[Peat]

He is a great of the Irish game. He is not a great of the global game. I think that should sum it up.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

snoopy snoopy dog dog, I didn't say I didn't rate him. I am not trying to argue, I just think he is overrated from the legend and great status he is given. I also think Ireland could have achieved more in the mid 2000's with a better coach and better fly half.

One point though I disagree on. His passing was never a strength and could get sloppy and also was too easy to read for defences.

I don't have any desire to dig up gifs or youtube clips but from around 2000-2004, O'Gara was an outstanding passer of the ball, bringing runners into play. The 2003 World Cup sticks in my mind most in this regard.

Saying he was on the level of an Andy Goode or Federico Todeschini is well wide of the mark. He and Stephen Jones were on a similar level for much of their careers. Both good players but never elite.

 

[psychic duck]

I don't have any desire to dig up gifs or youtube clips but from around 2000-2004, O'Gara was an outstanding passer of the ball, bringing runners into play. The 2003 World Cup sticks in my mind most in this regard.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Humphreys? In the 2003 World Cup, Ireland played France in the quarter with O'Gara starting and were losing 37-0 when ROG went off at 50 odd minutes. Part of which was his fault with one of the tries coming from his bad pass.

<iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WUf04rXis_w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Contrary to that. When Humphreys came on the score changed to 43-21, with Ireland winning 21-6 with Humphreys on the field. Humphreys actually created one of the tries. And also did a nice pop pass to put Maggs through for another. So it was Humphreys who was giving the line breaking passes there, ROG the try conceding ones.

<iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/EbHXILOBwjI#t=300" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-a5w19jt_dQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I honestly don't know how he could be considered "an outstanding passer". Just watch this. Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

<iframe width="400" height="300" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aF1Lb9QdBzk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe width="400" height="225" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6Hk9cSHwk78#t=34" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Saying he was on the level of an Andy Goode or Federico Todeschini is well wide of the mark. He and Stephen Jones were on a similar level for much of their careers. Both good players but never elite.

What could ROG do better than Goode or Todeschini? All similar players. Goode gets a hard time, but he has been in as many winning sides as ROG at domestic level. And his strengths were similar, mainly being kicking and chipping. And was better in defence too. Not saying he was better, but certainly not far off. Todeschini was very similar to ROG as well, great kicker, but very weak and limited.

As for Stephen Jones, I would again argue that Jones was comfortably better. He was pretty much as good as ROG in punt kicking, braver in defence, and had far better vision at his best. In direct competition, Jones always proved he was the better both in 2005 and 2009. Only thing in ROG's favour over him was he was far better than Jones in the final minutes of matches for last minute kicks where Jones was too timid.

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't have any desire to dig up gifs or youtube clips but from around 2000-2004, O'Gara was an outstanding passer of the ball, bringing runners into play. The 2003 World Cup sticks in my mind most in this regard.

Saying he was on the level of an Andy Goode or Federico Todeschini is well wide of the mark. He and Stephen Jones were on a similar level for much of their careers. Both good players but never elite.

Think you just explained it perfectly Snoop. Nobody saying he 1 of worlds best etc but he was a fine player in his prime. Also while I agree about comments regards him and Hayes I will say difference was Hayes wanted to go alot earlier but wasn't let.
And you can say he only had limited skill set Duck but that only enhances him so to have been so successful in terms of achievement with limited skill.

 

[munstermuffin]

Duck can I ask just because it a bit creepy - do you have a room at home dedicated with hatred to ROG. LOL I'd say you have more clips of his career than Sky
Is this like hatred (as in to hide a crush)?????

But on your arguments.
Regards 2011 RWC was it Kidneys fault Sexton was playing poorly and can you say so you think Kidney was wrong for trying to improve the team by putting in the player who was playing the better rugby? Sexton was the better player just having poor time??? Was it Kidney also who made Sexton miss kicks???

On Andy Goode and Federico Todeschini :
Goode (Age 33)
17 English Caps 107 Points - AVG 6.29 PPG
Career Club Points Around - 2500 - 2600 points in 266 Apps.

O'Gara has 1088 points for Ireland in 128 caps Avg 8.5 PPG
and 2671 points for Munster. Played 241 games for Munster and 11.08 PPG
And has played in alot more high stake games in shorter span of time (Munster didn't have League games until 2002).
So I think your argument there is bit irrelevant too.
But as I said you hate ROG and you think he was **** poor fair enough just you don't have to be repetitive on every thread about it.

Has won 4 Premiership ***les and 2 HEC (1 off Bench)

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

As for Stephen Jones, I would again argue that Jones was comfortably better. He was pretty much as good as ROG in punt kicking, braver in defence, and had far better vision at his best. In direct competition, Jones always proved he was the better both in 2005 and 2009. Only thing in ROG's favour over him was he was far better than Jones in the final minutes of matches for last minute kicks where Jones was too timid.

I don't think Jones can be considered comfortably better when he lacked bottle with games on the line!

Yes, I do know the difference between O'Gara and Humphreys. In the 2003 World Cup they shared the position. O'Gara was fizzing passes out off both hands. Most right handed players are pretty poor at passing off their left hand. Humphreys was the more talented of the two but O'Gara was more consistent.

Do you honestly believe Goode and Todeschini are of a similar level to O'Gara?! What could O'Gara do better? Kick for goal under pressure, run a back line, play the corners, you know, the important things for a flyhalf in an attacking sense!

We'll agree to disagree (as long as you admit you're wrong!).