RO'G to Retire

[profitius]

O'Gara's true value lies somewhere between how munster fans rate him and how psychic duck clearly doesn't rate him.

His limitations are well known. Tackling ability is non existent, late in his career he lost any pace he may have once had, lost length on his kicking game and early in his career he was flaky when the pressure came on.

His positives were his self confidence (important in a 10), mid career goal kicking, game management and his passing when he still carried some threat himself at attacking a gain line.

I'll remember O'Gara as a good player who made the most of his limited physical tools. He stuck around too long much like John Hayes which harms his legacy somewhat. He was never a great of the game but it can't be questioned that he had a few excellent seasons.

+1

I'd echo everything you said there. Munster fans tend to overrate him while others clearly don't rate him at all.

Like him or not everybody has to accept that he made the most of what god gave him. He was never the bigger or fasters but made the most of what he had and had a great career.

 

[Peat]

+1

I'd echo everything you said there. Munster fans tend to overrate him while others clearly don't rate him at all.

Like him or not everybody has to accept that he made the most of what god gave him. He was never the bigger or fasters but made the most of what he had and had a great career.

Actually, without wishing to be a dick, but would it really have been impossible for him to have put more muscle on and spend more time on his tackling technique? And might have he held off the emergence of Sexton/started more Lions test matches if he had?

He did an incredible amount for a guy with his physical limitations, but did he try all he could to overcome them...

edit: And in case it wasn't obvious, I find it difficult to believe he did. Looking at the effort Wilkinson put into his athleticism, looking at how solidly built and hard hitting a couple of little young guys like Madigan and Jackson are today... but then it was a different era back then in fairness.

 

[psychic duck]

Think you just explained it perfectly Snoop. Nobody saying he 1 of worlds best etc but he was a fine player in his prime.

Yes they are.

Can I just say that he has been a marvellous player, in his time, and the World, not just Munster or Ireland, will remember him as one of the great players of all time.

I can only hope that he has a long, enjoyable and fruitful retirement from playing and in what ever field he plans to undertake.

Thanks and Good luck Ronan!

And you can say he only had limited skill set Duck but that only enhances him so to have been so successful in terms of achievement with limited skill.

Exactly. The circumstances allowed him to get more medals than his overall talent and skill. He got luck in a number of ways that allowed him to do so.

Duck can I ask just because it a bit creepy - do you have a room at home dedicated with hatred to ROG. LOL I'd say you have more clips of his career than Sky
Is this like hatred (as in to hide a crush)?????

Just search name into YouTube munstermuffin.

But on your arguments.
Regards 2011 RWC was it Kidneys fault Sexton was playing poorly and can you say so you think Kidney was wrong for trying to improve the team by putting in the player who was playing the better rugby? Sexton was the better player just having poor time??? Was it Kidney also who made Sexton miss kicks???

I don't know if it was Kidney's fault, perhaps Sexton could have performed better if he had been given the shirt properly for say a year in the first place instead of Kidney keeping bringing on ROG so often. He missed a few kicks in that tournament, but Ireland still had their best result with him starting.

On Andy Goode and Federico Todeschini :
Goode (Age 33)
17 English Caps 107 Points - AVG 6.29 PPG
Career Club Points Around - 2500 - 2600 points in 266 Apps.

O'Gara has 1088 points for Ireland in 128 caps Avg 8.5 PPG
and 2671 points for Munster. Played 241 games for Munster and 11.08 PPG
And has played in alot more high stake games in shorter span of time (Munster didn't have League games until 2002).
So I think your argument there is bit irrelevant too.
But as I said you hate ROG and you think he was **** poor fair enough just you don't have to be repetitive on every thread about it.

Has won 4 Premiership ***les and 2 HEC (1 off Bench)

The stat attack again. They just show the work of the pack to win those penalties and that ROG was pretty good goal kicker most of the time and never got injured and had lack of competition and was Kidney's favourite that allowed him to.

How about you focus on actual play on the pitch. Goode has an equally good a record in terms of trophies and points at Leicester as ROG has. So your argument is irrelevant there. ROG would have only got about 17 caps for England. Goode gets a tough time though, unlike ROG who is adored by new and casual fans who gloss over his weaknesses and the fact he was awful in 3 World Cups and 3 Lions tours and nearly cost a Grand Slam and was the reason Munster were known as "the nearly men" for so long thanks to him losing Munster the final and just point to his points tally of opportunities earned by others in response to that.

By the way, I don't think he was "**** poor", and I am talking about him on a thread about him. He was a good kicker normally and could have his uses, much like Goode (who is given a bit of too much of a tough time based on his body rather than his performances tbh) and Todeschini were. The points tally, and medals are not indicative of his level as a player.

Also stop bringing the hate argument to it. It's nothing to do with it. It is just my opinion and I'm trying to back it up with more than just stats which is all the adoring ROG fans can do.

I don't think Jones can be considered comfortably better when he lacked bottle with games on the line!

Yes, I do know the difference between O'Gara and Humphreys. In the 2003 World Cup they shared the position. O'Gara was fizzing passes out off both hands. Most right handed players are pretty poor at passing off their left hand. Humphreys was the more talented of the two but O'Gara was more consistent.

Do you honestly believe Goode and Todeschini are of a similar level to O'Gara?! What could O'Gara do better? Kick for goal under pressure, run a back line, play the corners, you know, the important things for a flyhalf in an attacking sense!

We'll agree to disagree (as long as you admit you're wrong!).

I'd much rather O'Gara in the last minute of a match, but rather Jones for the other 79. Other than the Lions 2009 when he got a high pressure kicks in the second test, and France 2005, he ran away from the drop goal in the RWC something ROG wouldn't have done. Although on the otherside, we couldn't have ever hidden ROG for 65 minutes with 14 men either.

As for the comparison to other players. Goode could play the corners, not as good as O'Gara, but you could argue that the added defence could cancel it out. I don't rate O'Gara's ability to run a backline though, nor do I remember many "fizzing passes", by all accounts ROG has been a hindrance on Penney's plan to try and get Munster playing more expansively this season. Todeschini was a great kicker though and very similar to ROG in playing style.

+1

I'd echo everything you said there. Munster fans tend to overrate him while others clearly don't rate him at all.

Like him or not everybody has to accept that he made the most of what god gave him. He was never the bigger or fasters but made the most of what he had and had a great career.

Fair enough. Whilst he wasn't a great player as some make him out, and he was appalling at some aspects of the game, he did make the most of what he could do in general.

Actually, without wishing to be a dick, but would it really have been impossible for him to have put more muscle on and spend more time on his tackling technique? And might have he held off the emergence of Sexton/started more Lions test matches if he had?

He did an incredible amount for a guy with his physical limitations, but did he try all he could to overcome them...

edit: And in case it wasn't obvious, I find it difficult to believe he did. Looking at the effort Wilkinson put into his athleticism, looking at how solidly built and hard hitting a couple of little young guys like Madigan and Jackson are today... but then it was a different era back then in fairness.

Contepomi is another example of a fly half who more than held his own in defence. The fly half has changed a lot defensively now, look at Sexton doing choke tackles as another example.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Peat
You made a point about O'Gara's size which I'd never really considered. He is often given a free pass about his tackling because he's not a physically imposing figure. It always galled me that people in Ireland would almost laud him for being a speed bump (he can't tackle but at least he gets in the way to slow attackers down!). Why he's given a free pass for not bulking up to some degree is another issue which never really dawned on me.

 

[munstermuffin]

Again yes YouTube but who goes to all effort of creepily in every thread attacking ROG.
And Andy Goode has no Grand Slam, 1 HEC on field, no Lions Tours, No Internationalaccolades but well I again will let you consider whatever.
Where here has anyone said ROG was 1 of worlds best all round 10s.
And ROG wasn't a hindrance on Penny's game because been poor. He's adapted at 36 which isn't easy when his legs are gone so at Munster know full story. He had pass, had boot, had temperment just lacked the legs which still didn't stop him delivering in a HEC semifinal recently and yes you'll show YouTube clip of Fofana because you only watch 20 seconds of game and not whole things as you busy googling ROG.
And if Goode could do all them things decent how come he never made it or even lasted in England? How come he couldn't kick corners etc for England? How come he was poor kicking at goal ?
Can I also ask how was ROG hidden, he never left 10 channel, fellas went through him but he was always there to go through. So how was he hidden and well again if you show some YouTube or whatever it just shows how bad other teams were as we beat everyone except NZ with ROG at 10 and well if we did it with 14 I happy.
Also learn your history about Munster and nearly men and then come back to me and how did he nearly cost Ireland grand slam

 

[munstermuffin]

@Peat
You made a point about O'Gara's size which I'd never really considered. He is often given a free pass about his tackling because he's not a physically imposing figure. It always galled me that people in Ireland would almost laud him for being a speed bump (he can't tackle but at least he gets in the way to slow attackers down!). Why he's given a free pass for not bulking up to some degree is another issue which never really dawned on me.

Can agree he never was a guy to do much gym and while he did try improve tackling technique due to lack of gym he never had strength but that a different argument

 

[psychic duck]

Again yes YouTube but who goes to all effort of creepily in every thread attacking ROG.

Muffin this a thread about ROG discussing him. I'm just giving my opinion, the other threads where he is criticised normally about Munster where it is relevant.

And Andy Goode has no Grand Slam, 1 HEC on field, no Lions Tours, No Internationalaccolades but well I again will let you consider whatever.

How many caps would have ROG got against Wilkinson, Grayson, Hodgson and Flood?

Where here has anyone said ROG was 1 of worlds best all round 10s.

I just put a quote in saying that he was an all time great of the game. And even within Ireland I don't even think he's better than Sexton in his era never mind all time the greatest you've had.

And ROG wasn't a hindrance on Penny's game because been poor. He's adapted at 36 which isn't easy when his legs are gone so at Munster know full story. He had pass, had boot, had temperment just lacked the legs which still didn't stop him delivering in a HEC semifinal recently and yes you'll show YouTube clip of Fofana because you only watch 20 seconds of game and not whole things as you busy googling ROG.

I am aware that ROG had a good game against Clermont. Still I wouldn't call it legendary, and that performance certainly hasn't been for most of the season. I also disagree about passing, I really don't rate it, his passes were behind his centres in the Quins game until that chip ahead against Clermont, Munster really didn't look like scoring against Quins or Clermont in the backs with ROG directing things. And then you add to that his defence is a joke as well.

And if Goode could do all them things decent how come he never made it or even lasted in England? How come he couldn't kick corners etc for England? How come he was poor kicking at goal ?

Good recently had a game that was very similar to ROG's in Montpellier in the Premiership. He can kick the corners (not as good as ROG) and is very good at chip kicks (even better), and is a bit underrated partly due to being mocked about his belly. He wasn't as good at kicking as ROG, but I think if he looked different and spent his entire career at Munster people would consider him differently.

<iframe width="400" height="225" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O4RundJ55bA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Can I also ask how was ROG hidden, he never left 10 channel, fellas went through him but he was always there to go through. So how was he hidden and well again if you show some YouTube or whatever it just shows how bad other teams were as we beat everyone except NZ with ROG at 10 and well if we did it with 14 I happy.

Wallace had to work hard to cover him. Just watch this, he doesn't quite get there here, but it is Wallace who has to come across to cover for O'Gara's missed tackle. I also said that with Wales playing at 14 men with Warburton off, ROG would have got the drop goal but with a man down it would have been impossible to babysit him for 65 minutes. He nearly cost Ireland the Grand Slam in the England match, missed about 4 or 5 simple kicks and Ireland only won by 1 point, BOD in the end had to cover for ROG's missed points by nailing a drop goal and scoring a try.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just regards O'Gara's record (as Choker in HEC in "Nearly Men era")

2000 - vs Northampton Lost 9-8 ROG had bad day with boot

2001 - vs Stade Fr Lost 16 - 15. John O'Neill scored a try that ref didn't give. This played big part in introduction of Video Ref. ROG 5/5 100% Match in France.

2002 - vs Leicester Lost 15-9. Hand Of Back. 3/5. Missed 2 hard pens on either sideline. Again scored all points including great pens literally on sideline.

2003 - vs Toulouse Lost 13-12. ROG scored 2/3 pens, 2 Drop Goals and narrowly missed a lost min 50m drop goal. In France. Again scored all Munster points.

2004 - vs Wasps. Lost 37-32 ROG played 10 mins scored pen before injury.

2005 - vs Biarritz lost 19-10. He didn't play.

So Duck don't think his record in reason Munster were nearly men and I don't think you've to be Einstein to realize reason of nearly men is because in every game (excluding Biarritz) it was a 1 score game and every game including Biarritz the last phases were Munster attacking the line or going for last gasp drop goal.

 

[Peat]

@Peat
You made a point about O'Gara's size which I'd never really considered. He is often given a free pass about his tackling because he's not a physically imposing figure. It always galled me that people in Ireland would almost laud him for being a speed bump (he can't tackle but at least he gets in the way to slow attackers down!). Why he's given a free pass for not bulking up to some degree is another issue which never really dawned on me.

I only just thought of it too! We've all heard it but something in my mind went "He really couldn't improve his athleticism... really...". Look at Toby Flood, rough same size, but much stronger, has worked very hard on his running game, could O'Gara have done that if he wanted to? Maybe the need to do it didn't become apparent until too late, I don't want to be too harsh, but for a guy like him to spend that many years as a pro at that size just looks weird. I'll believe he tried to improve tackling technique, but if you don't have the strength, it's probably never going to work...

And if Goode could do all them things decent how come he never made it or even lasted in England? How come he couldn't kick corners etc for England? How come he was poor kicking at goal ?

He spent his career playing at the same time as Wilko, Hodgson and Flood behind a ho-hum pack. This is Duck's argument boiled down. The lack of other fly-halves in Ireland gave him opportunities beyond what was afforded to players in countries with other fly-halves, or a lesser pack, and has given him a higher profile than their respective talent levels would suggest. I would agree with that. I think if Andy Goode had been Irish and O'Gara English, Goode would have gone on Lions tours and O'Gara wouldn't have. But I also think its irrelevant. It does not matter how opportunity comes about, it matters what you do with it. He is inarguably lucky to have spent so long a period of his career without peers, and lucky to have been playing with great players for most of his career, but there's no luck about the things he did well. The achievement is what matters at the end of the day. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does.

And, really, the main thing this argument says to me is people should be kinder on Goode, not harsher on Radge. Tempting as it is, the blurt faced cooooooont.

 

[munstermuffin]

Muffin this a thread about ROG discussing him. I'm just giving my opinion, the other threads where he is criticised normally about Munster where it is relevant.



How many caps would have ROG got against Wilkinson, Grayson, Hodgson and Flood?



I just put a quote in saying that he was an all time great of the game. And even within Ireland I don't even think he's better than Sexton in his era never mind all time the greatest you've had.



I am aware that ROG had a good game against Clermont. Still I wouldn't call it legendary, and that performance certainly hasn't been for most of the season. I also disagree about passing, I really don't rate it, his passes were behind his centres in the Quins game until that chip ahead against Clermont, Munster really didn't look like scoring against Quins or Clermont in the backs with ROG directing things. And then you add to that his defence is a joke as well.



Good recently had a game that was very similar to ROG's in Montpellier in the Premiership. He can kick the corners (not as good as ROG) and is very good at chip kicks (even better), and is a bit underrated partly due to being mocked about his belly. He wasn't as good at kicking as ROG, but I think if he looked different and spent his entire career at Munster people would consider him differently.

<iframe height="225" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O4RundJ55bA" frameBorder="0" width="400" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>



Wallace had to work hard to cover him. Just watch this, he doesn't quite get there here, but it is Wallace who has to come across to cover for O'Gara's missed tackle. I also said that with Wales playing at 14 men with Warburton off, ROG would have got the drop goal but with a man down it would have been impossible to babysit him for 65 minutes. He nearly cost Ireland the Grand Slam in the England match, missed about 4 or 5 simple kicks and Ireland only won by 1 point, BOD in the end had to cover for ROG's missed points by nailing a drop goal and scoring a try.

Ok so you barely mention him in any other thread fair enough How many GIF's to you post of him.

Wilkinson was barely around after 03 as was Grayson, Hodgson was proven to lack bottle so I'd say ROG would've got ALOT more than 17.

Again WHO said he was 1 of Worlds Greatest here or WHO said Sexton won't be better than hom in Sextons era. Nobody, Sexton will have to achieve at international level which is very possible and Sexton become the more higher rated player but lets decide that when Sexton goes.

Again I wont even comment on your 20 second clips I accept you don't watch matches and are a highlights man.

Again regards Ireland vs England in Grandslam -
You saw BOD nail a dropgoal and get a try to win.
In reality.
Ire 3-0 up Pen O'Gara
3-3 Pen Flood
6-3 BOD Drop goal (After ROG breaks up the field from a scrum) and from resultant ruck POC sets up BOD for DG.

*ROG was wrong for making 40 metres. Must remember that in future

11-3 - BOD try after ROG and POC decide to go for lineout and decline 3 points while BOD was being attended

11-6 Pen Armitage

14 - 6 Pen ROG

14-13 Try Armitage Conv Goode as England score in injury time against a depleted Irish team with all subs on and man injured.

So explain how that is nearly costing the game

 

[munstermuffin]

I only just thought of it too! We've all heard it but something in my mind went "He really couldn't improve his athleticism... really...". Look at Toby Flood, rough same size, but much stronger, has worked very hard on his running game, could O'Gara have done that if he wanted to? Maybe the need to do it didn't become apparent until too late, I don't want to be too harsh, but for a guy like him to spend that many years as a pro at that size just looks weird. I'll believe he tried to improve tackling technique, but if you don't have the strength, it's probably never going to work...



He spent his career playing at the same time as Wilko, Hodgson and Flood behind a ho-hum pack. This is Duck's argument boiled down. The lack of other fly-halves in Ireland gave him opportunities beyond what was afforded to players in countries with other fly-halves, or a lesser pack, and has given him a higher profile than their respective talent levels would suggest. I would agree with that. I think if Andy Goode had been Irish and O'Gara English, Goode would have gone on Lions tours and O'Gara wouldn't have. But I also think its irrelevant. It does not matter how opportunity comes about, it matters what you do with it. He is inarguably lucky to have spent so long a period of his career without peers, and lucky to have been playing with great players for most of his career, but there's no luck about the things he did well. The achievement is what matters at the end of the day. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does.

And, really, the main thing this argument says to me is people should be kinder on Goode, not harsher on Radge. Tempting as it is, the blurt faced cooooooont.

But as you say that is the same as saying Stephen Jones had no competition for Wales but that doesn't make them bad players. It's as saying goes you can only play with what you have and you can only beat what is in front of you

 

[Draggs]

Tbh Draggs, some of them hit the nail on the head.

Without a doubt.

 

[psychic duck]

I only just thought of it too! We've all heard it but something in my mind went "He really couldn't improve his athleticism... really...". Look at Toby Flood, rough same size, but much stronger, has worked very hard on his running game, could O'Gara have done that if he wanted to? Maybe the need to do it didn't become apparent until too late, I don't want to be too harsh, but for a guy like him to spend that many years as a pro at that size just looks weird. I'll believe he tried to improve tackling technique, but if you don't have the strength, it's probably never going to work...

An example of a player that ROG could have emulated is also Shane Williams who improved from a not good enough defender to a passable one. And he was even smaller than ROG.

Wilkinson was barely around after 03 as was Grayson, Hodgson was proven to lack bottle so I'd say ROG would've got ALOT more than 17.

Disagree. Wilkinson was there for a while post 2007, Flood was there from 2007 onwards. Also England would have been a lot harsher critics on him and with more options he would have been quicker dropped. Just look how Hodgson was binned for 3/4 years for missing tackles against New Zealand in 2008, with more depth the selection is a lot less forgiving than when Jeremy Staunton and Paddy Wallace are the options behind you. A similar thing with Cipriani, he was the next big thing in 2008, then was found out with charge downs and poor defence and was ditched. I don't think ROG would have got more than 17 caps, he may have got a few in 2009 at the same time Goode did with Flood injured, but not too many more. Add to that there is Geraghty, Barkley and Farrell all of whom are tougher competition than Paddy Wallace and Staunton.

Again WHO said he was 1 of Worlds Greatest here or WHO said Sexton won't be better than hom in Sextons era. Nobody, Sexton will have to achieve at international level which is very possible and Sexton become the more higher rated player but lets decide that when Sexton goes.

Here. Quote below.

Can I just say that he has been a marvellous player, in his time, and the World, not just Munster or Ireland, will remember him as one of the great players of all time.

Again regards Ireland vs England in Grandslam -
You saw BOD nail a dropgoal and get a try to win.
In reality.
Ire 3-0 up Pen O'Gara
3-3 Pen Flood
6-3 BOD Drop goal (After ROG breaks up the field from a scrum) and from resultant ruck POC sets up BOD for DG.

*ROG was wrong for making 40 metres. Must remember that in future

11-3 - BOD try after ROG and POC decide to go for lineout and decline 3 points while BOD was being attended

11-6 Pen Armitage

14 - 6 Pen ROG

14-13 Try Armitage Conv Goode as England score in injury time against a depleted Irish team with all subs on and man injured.

So explain how that is nearly costing the game

Here you go. Missing a load of kicks, nearly was costly.

Also where was the ROG break, see this (http://youtu.be/gu9YW7GJVys?t=58m50s), there's an up and under then POC rips the ball off England and BOD gets the drop goal. No O'Gara break.

<iframe width="400" height="225" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8FQEWXn1uPI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

But as you say that is the same as saying Stephen Jones had no competition for Wales but that doesn't make them bad players. It's as saying goes you can only play with what you have and you can only beat what is in front of you

Early career there was Neil Jenkins a 2 time Lions tourist. Then James Hook emerged. Add to that Dan Biggar and Rhys Priestland (for a very brief period) were there. And also whilst not immense I would have Nicky Robinson as a stronger reserve option for competition than Jeremy Staunton.

It's not ROG's fault that was the way it is. As I have said numerous times, it was just luck for him that is how it worked out, add to that he never got injured and that is part of the reason as to why he has so many caps.

 

[munstermuffin]

Correct it wasn't a 40m break (as per telegraph) but a short dart buy again I still don't understand how it nearly cost game when game was never in doubt. Yes ROG missed kicks but game was never in doubt. But theres an O'Gara break there if you watch.

Regardless of Wilkinson been there post 2007, he wasn't the same player for England and fact is all that is irrelevant, if ROG was English he might never have got on to international stage, if he played for USA when he was supposed to he'd never have played for Ireland but trhe what if's don't mean a damn thing.

Hold on Hook has never been a serious competitor to 10 and the rest were never in contention no more than Paddy Wallace was to Ireland.

But look why don't you just retreat we all know you hate ROG and we all know you have hours of video and what and it your opinion. But you don't have to be repetitive in every thread that mentions Munster or ROG that you don't like him.
Tony Manx a Biarritz supporter said that quote coming from (as experienced last week) a country that really rate ROG highly and yes a marvellous player and French respect his accolades so what difference between that and context of him being in greatest players of all time.

 

[psychic duck]

Hold on Hook has never been a serious competitor to 10 and the rest were never in contention no more than Paddy Wallace was to Ireland.

What? Hook never a serious competitor to 10?

Go watch the wins over England in 2007 and 2008 and say that. He was more than just a competitor, they have contested the 10 shirt since 2006.

Regardless of Priestland's awfulness, he was certainly in contention and was ahead of Stephen Jones at the 2011 RWC. Biggar and Robinson weren't massive contenders in Stephen Jones' time, but still better contenders than Wallace/Staunton were.

if ROG was English he might never have got on to international stage, if he played for USA when he was supposed to he'd never have played for Ireland but trhe what if's don't mean a damn thing.

When was he supposed to play for USA?

 

[Draggs]

Nicky was hard done by.
He was prone to a few howlers, but offered more than Jones on his day. Sort of a Hook 0.9.
I honestly felt that Hook could have developed into a class standoff given time. He was pushed around by that Aussie **** at the Os during their Tossprey era. His performances in 2007/08 were on a level that Wellies wasn't at. Hook never had a great backing. Every time he made a mistake it was typical Hook but if it was Priestland or Biggar it was They are young/developing give him time.

A more dynamic coaching staff would have worked around the faults, as Ireland did for O'Gara, Australia did for Cooper, NZ did for Spencer.

Oh, I've hijacked an Irish thread... ****.

 

[munstermuffin]

What? Hook never a serious competitor to 10?

Go watch the wins over England in 2007 and 2008 and say that. He was more than just a competitor, they have contested the 10 shirt since 2006.

Regardless of Priestland's awfulness, he was certainly in contention and was ahead of Stephen Jones at the 2011 RWC. Biggar and Robinson weren't massive contenders in Stephen Jones' time, but still better contenders than Wallace/Staunton were.



When was he supposed to play for USA?

Learn about ROG and you'll know he was in a USA training camp before an Irish one

 

[psychic duck]

Nicky was hard done by.
He was prone to a few howlers, but offered more than Jones on his day. Sort of a Hook 0.9.
I honestly felt that Hook could have developed into a class standoff given time. He was pushed around by that Aussie **** at the Os during their Tossprey era. His performances in 2007/08 were on a level that Wellies wasn't at. Hook never had a great backing. Every time he made a mistake it was typical Hook but if it was Priestland or Biggar it was They are young/developing give him time.

A more dynamic coaching staff would have worked around the faults, as Ireland did for O'Gara, Australia did for Cooper, NZ did for Spencer.

Oh, I've hijacked an Irish thread... ****.

Draggs, how was Hook messed around? I didn't like what Scott Johnson did at the Ospreys, but Hook was great at centre when he played there. Biggar 10 and Hook 12 worked well when Henson went missing. I was disappointed he left. I wish Hook stayed at centre for Wales, he was getting a nice combination with Roberts, but then insisted on playing 10. He could have stayed at centre but instead he has like 20 odd caps now off bench appearances which lately haven't been impressive either.

I don't think he was that much better than Wellies as your suggesting though, Stephen Jones could control the game better. Just see Hook in the France semi final. Still I get your point though, I reckon Schmidt could have made a better player out of him. And I don't think Perpignan was the right side for him to join in hindsight.

Learn about ROG and you'll know he was in a USA training camp before an Irish one

Interesting. I wonder how close he came to actually getting capped?

 

[big ginger 8]

I only just thought of it too! We've all heard it but something in my mind went "He really couldn't improve his athleticism... really...". Look at Toby Flood, rough same size, but much stronger, has worked very hard on his running game, could O'Gara have done that if he wanted to? Maybe the need to do it didn't become apparent until too late, I don't want to be too harsh, but for a guy like him to spend that many years as a pro at that size just looks weird. I'll believe he tried to improve tackling technique, but if you don't have the strength, it's probably never going to work...

In his autobiography he says how he really struggled to put on wait but admits he wasn't doing enough strength work early on.

Learn about ROG and you'll know he was in a USA training camp before an Irish one

In his autobiography he says he just had a meeting EOS who was involved at time except it wasn;t ever very serious just O'Sullivan chancing his arm.


I read his autobiography by the way.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Duck, I don't really buy much of what you're saying but the one point you make that I really don't like is the "easy run" O'Gara had at 10. Munster played 10 man rugby in their prime and to play 10 man rugby you need to have a pretty good 10, think of all the times he placed kicks perfectly in the oppositions 5m line and he is probably the best 10 to put up a Garryowen. ROG and Stephan Jones really sea sawed between who was better throughout their career, Jones was better for the Lions but O'Gara was certainly better in club rugby and I'd say ROG was better than Jones in '03, '04, '06, '07 with Jones being better in the other four or so seasons they were both around. ROG's game management was really second to none and helped Ireland and Munster hugely in the past 14 or so years. He was voted the best HEC player of the 1st 15 years and whether that was deserved or not he was certainly the best 10.

I'll never say that ROG was the worlds best because he was limited but there were years that he played brilliant rugby almost all year around and could have been considered Europe's best.