Rugby and the British Empire

[Cymro]

Need to use the quote tags correctly ...

 

[Prestwick]

To be honest, castigating English fans for using the well worn convict stereotype is a little rich when Australians can't be absolutely sure what their "pom" retort actually means.*

While I really, really don't want to continue this thread, I thought I might point out that King Rudd I has decided to pick up the baton/albatross of Paul Keating and continue the utterly impossible task of trying to buddy up with a region which eyes westerners with a mixture of disgust, fear and suspicion (i.e. Asia), a plan which has proven and will prove to never, ever work. Oh well, at least it keeps the dead wood in the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in a job for a while longer...

(*there are several purported explainations, ranging from it being slang for "immigrant" all the way to "P.O.H.M" being emblazoned on the uniforms given to convicts arriving in Australia, ah! We've come full circle! Better drop the use of POM in Adelaide then!)

 

[BLR]

While I really, really don't want to continue this thread, I thought I might point out that King Rudd I has decided to pick up the baton/albatross of Paul Keating and continue the utterly impossible task of trying to buddy up with a region which eyes westerners with a mixture of disgust, fear and suspicion (i.e. Asia), a plan which has proven and will prove to never, ever work. Oh well, at least it keeps the dead wood in the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in a job for a while longer...[/b]

Well the US brought us into a war and back when we were the UK's *****es that worked out great, got us invaded because thier guns weren't pointed the right way, so I don't see much of an option in the matter, we can't go it alone so why not buddy up to the Asians, enough of them come into Australia per year to make me think that maybe thier suspicion towards Westerners must just be towards the 'other' Westerners, we get along just fine thankyou very much.

PS. redunderthebed, what are you a Communist? China and India being a good exampe of how a country is run is so bloody wrong. Need I remind you of the intense poverty in both countries or the significant human rights abuses of China? As for the West wanting to keep the third world countries under the thumb, wouldn't it be more economically sound to raise thier standard of living so they don't have to pay billions of dollars in aid per year? Get a hold of yourself, we are one of the good guys believe it or not. You've watched far too many movies.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'>
While I really, really don't want to continue this thread, I thought I might point out that King Rudd I has decided to pick up the baton/albatross of Paul Keating and continue the utterly impossible task of trying to buddy up with a region which eyes westerners with a mixture of disgust, fear and suspicion (i.e. Asia), a plan which has proven and will prove to never, ever work. Oh well, at least it keeps the dead wood in the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in a job for a while longer...[/b]

Well the US brought us into a war and back when we were the UK's *****es that worked out great, got us invaded because thier guns weren't pointed the right way, so I don't see much of an option in the matter, we can't go it alone so why not buddy up to the Asians, enough of them come into Australia per year to make me think that maybe thier suspicion towards Westerners must just be towards the 'other' Westerners, we get along just fine thankyou very much. [/b][/quote]

Thats the problem. You're acting like that annoying boff at secondary school who wants to be the friend of the class but nobody likes. You want to buddy up with Asia but Asia doesn't want to buddy up with you. Asia has, is and will always see you as a bunch of guys sitting around drinking VB wearing string vests and living out of caravans. They don't trust you, they will never trust you and they don't want to know about whatever you have to offer. Japan and Korea recoil at your attempts to link India with China and the United States while Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia worry and panic over your moves to found European Union style institutions in the region. Even India is angry at the proactive role that Australia takes in the Commonwealth on issues like Zimbabwe, issues which the Indians would rather be swept under the carpet.

I'm not saying buddying up with us was a great idea, Singapore is a rather brilliant example although that was more because of utterly incompetent and cowardly British commanders than where the guns were facing, what I'm saying is don't make such big noises about something that will never happen and don't mix increased immigration as a sign of approval from a region which would rather be rid of people who want to live in a positive, progressive, free, open and democratic nation like Australia.

 

[BLR]

Ah well, think of us as crusaders to make Asia a better place, whether they like it or not. We are currently earning squillions from importing WA resources to China so that is more then a reason to keep on good terms.

As far as countries worrying, fair enough, they wouldn't want change, but that doesn't mean we should just stop trying, we don't want it to get into a Africa type situation where civil wars are allowed to go on willy nilly with thousands dying. Plus Rudd speaks Cantonese, how would he use it otherwise?

In a few decades we will have enough asians in our country to pretty much be close to a asian nation anyway so we can't really have them seperated from our society so that they bring much of the harmful elements of Asia with them.

As for not making big noise, sounds like appeasement to me, do you know who was appeased? Hitler.

 

[Maccaweeny]

India is even more ****** with the Labor stance on Uranium exports. Regardless, while some Asian/Oceanic nations will continue to eye Australia with suspicion (Fiji comes to mind), trade relations are more important than old grudges.

Australia is the world's largest exporter of black coal, refines the third most iron ore and has the largest deposits of Uranium in the world. Combined with an extremely high GDP and a relatively steady economy due to the WA mineral boom, the head-honchos in Asia are all too willing to play nice with Canberra. Hence China and Japan are our largest trading partners respectively.

While there have been large hiccups, I'd argue that there have been some steps forward in becoming part of an Oceanic/Asian community. China and Australia are so dependent upon each others trade that they will just ignore things like Tibet or China's obvious support for the military interim government in Fiji. Japan's trade is almost as important, they also wish to consolidate allies in the event of conflict with China over Taiwan or N.K. It's an ad-hoc friendship but in time it has the potential to develop, so long as Rudd doesn't over-step his relationship with China.

Then there are smaller nations like the Philippines that have seen greater dialogue with Aus. The ADF has started training Philippine special forces and the AFP has continually aided their government in fighting islamic separatists in the south.

Peace-keeping roles in the Solomons, Timor and to a lesser extent New Guinea have been less well received, especially by Indonesia. Then again, that's life.

 

[Caledfwlch]

Ah well, think of us as crusaders to make Asia a better place, whether they like it or not. We are currently earning squillions from importing WA resources to China so that is more then a reason to keep on good terms.

As far as countries worrying, fair enough, they wouldn't want change, but that doesn't mean we should just stop trying, we don't want it to get into a Africa type situation where civil wars are allowed to go on willy nilly with thousands dying. Plus Rudd speaks Cantonese, how would he use it otherwise?

In a few decades we will have enough asians in our country to pretty much be close to a asian nation anyway so we can't really have them seperated from our society so that they bring much of the harmful elements of Asia with them.

As for not making big noise, sounds like appeasement to me, do you know who was appeased? Hitler. [/b]

WOW! Rudd speaks Cantonese?!!?!? :blink:



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I'd prefer if Singapore would be like Australia, NZ and Canada. With the Queen to look up to. And would also make me eligible for knighthood

 

[Maccaweeny]

Also guys, just quickly. Do you know that the guns were facing in the right direction? Cth. forces just had the wrong ammunition type, solid bore AP shells which are only effective when penetrating a ships hull. They had no HE, so when firing at troops, the shells would merely bury into the ground and not explode...

 

[sanzar]

India is even more ****** with the Labor stance on Uranium exports. Regardless, while some Asian/Oceanic nations will continue to eye Australia with suspicion (Fiji comes to mind), trade relations are more important than old grudges.

Australia is the world's largest exporter of black coal, refines the third most iron ore and has the largest deposits of Uranium in the world. Combined with an extremely high GDP and a relatively steady economy due to the WA mineral boom, the head-honchos in Asia are all too willing to play nice with Canberra. Hence China and Japan are our largest trading partners respectively.

While there have been large hiccups, I'd argue that there have been some steps forward in becoming part of an Oceanic/Asian community. China and Australia are so dependent upon each others trade that they will just ignore things like Tibet or China's obvious support for the military interim government in Fiji. Japan's trade is almost as important, they also wish to consolidate allies in the event of conflict with China over Taiwan or N.K. It's an ad-hoc friendship but in time it has the potential to develop, so long as Rudd doesn't over-step his relationship with China.
[/b]

Bingo.
What you need to understand Prestwick is that Asia is a pretty divided region to put it mildly, so Australia is well placed to form potentially divisive relationships that can work in our favour. The most difficult of these will be managing Beijing and Tokyo, but Rudd's a pretty diplomatic leader, and the fact he's fluent in Chinese doesn't hurt our cause.
Your argument that being part of Asia is "never going to work" is thus pretty odd from my perspective, considering Keating actually made considerable inroads in his short time in office. But that all changed with the libs and it was Howard's stubborn refusal to accept that we were not part of the United States or Europe that has made things hard for us now...
So in reality the 'policy that was never going to work' was us pretending that geography has no bearing and thinking we could ignore Asia in favor of the US and Europe. The hawk like support of the US was probably the dumest thing we've done for a while. I mean f***, supporting a clearly cycnical interest based war in the middle east under the guise of it being to "fight islamic terrorists" (whom the islamic world see as freedom fighters retaliating against western oppression) when we have one of the largest Muslim nations at our doorstep is not what I call smart policy.
In any case, governments these days are generally more realist than ever before and "friendships" literally mean nothing (something emphatically expressed by a former Clinton Administration official who explained that Australian security needs would be ignored despite our treaty if it proved to be the the United States' interest to do so), so suspicion or not Asia will deal with us (especially China given that most of Asia aren't exactly trusting of them either).

 

[BLR]

when we have one of the largest Muslim nations at our doorstep is not what I call smart policy.[/b]

Indonesia is THE most populous Muslim nation. Which is kinda scary.

 

[Caledfwlch]

Also guys, just quickly. Do you know that the guns were facing in the right direction? Cth. forces just had the wrong ammunition type, solid bore AP shells which are only effective when penetrating a ships hull. They had no HE, so when firing at troops, the shells would merely bury into the ground and not explode... [/b]

[/color]



Are we still on Singapore? If so, the guns were definitely pointing in the wrong direction. The guns were on Sentosa, back then it was known as Pulau Belakang Mati, which translate literally as:

Pulau - Island

Belakang - Behind

Mati - Die


There were some pillboxes on mainland Singapore. But they were situated at the south end of the island, again, pointing to the sea. It was at one of these pillboxes that a famous 1960's rape and murder of a young primary schoolgirl happened.


But the Japs attacked from the Malayan mainland (North) and decided to take residence in the Sultan's palace which was 5 storeys high. Back in the 1940s, this five storey midget (ok maybe skyscraper, take note - until the 1980s, Singapore still was a bloody shitty arse backwater place) commanded a unobstructed view of Singapore FROM Johore.



Yamashita, took a gamble, he guessed that the Brits would not want to open fire on the Sultan's palace. The Sultan was an old friend after all. And quite right, the Brits never fired a single shot at the palace. And Singapore fell, as a consequence.



The Brits also made alot of tactical errors, among which the most famous is the sinking of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, without air support. When the skies cleared, Jap planes appeared out of nowhere, and bombed the hell out of the two warships.


Everything can;t be attributed just to the Brits alone though.

The plans for the British to defend Singapore fell into the hands of the Axis when the S.S. Automedon was boarded by the German Raider Atlantis in the Indian Ocean, on November 11, 1940. The Germans discovered the documents and sent them to the Japanese.



Furthermore, Winston Churchill publicly announced that the Prince Of Wales and Repulse were to be sent to Singapore as a deterrent to the Japanese. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto sent 36 Betty torpedo bombers to reinforce the existing Kanoya Naval Force and Genzan Air Corps, whose pilots began training vigorously for an attack on the two capital ships.


And also, there were alot of errors in communication. Although the order was sent out to NOT surrender, some bloke told the troops to retreat.



If you can get your hands on the book(s) by Noel Barber



1) The War of the Running Dogs: How Malaya Defeated the Communist Guerrillas

<span style="color:#000000">In Mandarin, we call the locals who worked as Jap spies "Zou Gou", which translates to Walking/Running Dog. Derogatory term for lackey. After the war, these poor sods were sussed out by the local populace.I don't have to elaborate what happened to them. I'm not sure if this book is about the Japs though. Been searching for years for this book but I can't seem to find it. Would make a good gift for my dad.



2) Sinister Twilight: The Fall And Rise Again of Singapore

This book explains the mistakes made by the Brits, the lives of the foreigners who were thrown into internment camps etc etc, pre, during and post Japanese Occupation of Singapore.

</span>

The next morning after the battle, Prime Minister Churchill received a phonecall at his bedside from Sir Dudley Pound, the First Sea Lord.

“ Pound: Prime Minister, I have to report to you that the Prince of Wales and the Repulse have both been sunk by the Japanese - we think by aircraft. Tom Phillips is drowned.

Churchill: Are you sure it's true?

Pound: There is no doubt at all.

Churchill hangs up

"In all the war, I never received a more direct shock... As I turned over and twisted in bed the full horror of the news sank in upon me. There were no British or American ships in the Indian Ocean or the Pacific except the American survivors of Pearl Harbor, who were hastening back to California. Over all this vast expanse of waters Japan was supreme, and we everywhere were weak and naked. â€

Singapore had essentially been reduced to a land base after both capital ships were lost, and that was also the Royal Navy's greatest matériel lost in a single engagement. Combined with the earlier attack on Pearl Harbor, this left the Allies with only three operational capital ships in the Pacific Theatre .

The two ships were the first capital ships actively defending themselves to be sunk solely by airpower while steaming on the open sea. This incident demonstrated the vulnerability of even the most modern surface ships to the potency of air attack and drove home the necessity of air cover to protect against such an incident.



Oops, sorry for hijacking the thread with a history lesson.

 

[Maccaweeny]

I was always under the impression that the whole 'guns facing the wrong direction' thing was a myth, though if you say it was so then I'll take your word for it, I've never studied the fall of Singapore. I specifically remember reading that guns firing on Japanese infantry were loaded with AP though.

EDIT: No I think i'm right, I remember reading it in a text written by one of my lecturers, and a quick look on the wiki article "fall of singapore" says much the same ;


"Singapore's famous large-calibre coastal gunsâ€"which included one battery of three 15-inch (381 mm) guns and one with two 15-inch (381 mm) gunsâ€"were supplied mostly with armour-piercing (AP) shells and few high explosive (HE) shells. AP shells were designed to penetrate the hulls of warships and were ineffective against infantry, rendering the guns relatively ineffective. It is commonly said that the guns could not fire on the Japanese forces because they faced south, but this is not so. Although placed to defend against enemy ships instead of the straits, most of the guns could turn northwards and they did fire at the invaders. Military analysts later estimated that if the guns had been well supplied with HE shells the Japanese attackers would have suffered heavy casualties, but the invasion would not have been prevented."

 

[Caledfwlch]

Haha my textbooks say the guns point south out of Sentosa and the Labrador Park areas. I'm very very very sure that the guns point in the wrong direction because I'm Singaporean. And I've studied this sort of rubbish because it was compulsory.

Yes, the British did eventually manage to cart some guns to defend the Causeway (bridge linking Singapore to Malaya), but those were a rag tag bunch of small fart cannons. Compared to the stuff they had spent so much time building at Labrador Park and Sentosa, the guns at the Causeway were mere pistols in comparison.

 

[Prestwick]

I'm sorry guys but the guns could have been pointing to bloody Tokyo for all the average squaddie down there could have cared. They were sold out by ineffective and weak commanders in Singapore itself who simply were not prepared for a pitched battle over Singapore.

The Commonwealth forces posted at Singapore had the capability to take on the Japanese, we outnumbered them by almost two to one and that Japanese supply lines were as bad as our own. It was a series of catastrophic mistakes brought on by dithering and weak leadership which sunk Singapore, not some irrelevent issue about guns facing the wrong way.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Is it just me, or has this turned into a 'Celts and commonwealth don't like the English' and 'Us english are great we are' thread?

 

[Prestwick]

Not really, no. That was earlier..


..before the dancing!

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

 

[Prestwick]

Zing!

 

[Sir Speedy]

OMG IT'S TOO LATE FOR THAT NOW! You should've been here when we did it two days ago! :angry: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111one1!!!111!elevenone1!1!

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Yes well us scots are bit backwards and behind everyone else.




URRRRRRGH MAGIC DEVIL WORDS ON COLOUR BOX! *bangs laptop with some sort of stone*

Now excuse me while I go fetch my spear to hunt my dinner. Those haggis are hard ******** to catch!